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How to be a trader for a company?

  • #221
  • Jul 28, 2007 8:15pm Jul 28, 2007 8:15pm
Good sharing nick ...
  • #222
  • Jul 29, 2007 11:07am Jul 29, 2007 11:07am
Very interesting, thanks for sharing
"Lunch ? Lunch Is For Wimps !"
  • #223
  • Jul 30, 2007 9:19pm Jul 30, 2007 9:19pm
By the way, for those who have never seen it before, this is UBS trading floor...pretty sweet


http://advancedtrading.com/galleries...l?galleryID=20


Future
"Lunch ? Lunch Is For Wimps !"
  • #224
  • Aug 1, 2007 7:46am Aug 1, 2007 7:46am
Quoting MrFuture
By the way, for those who have never seen it before, this is UBS trading floor...pretty sweet


http://advancedtrading.com/galleries...l?galleryID=20


Future

That is ____ing sweet!
  • #225
  • Aug 1, 2007 12:55pm Aug 1, 2007 12:55pm
turret,

your point 7 hits the nail on the head. who cares about the news the position is already on...news will confirm it or give the opportunity to evaluate the impact. these guys are in for the long haul. you can't turn a position of size on just any news item. if something unexpected happens like boe increasing rates when no-one expects then yes the big guns will also react and thats why we then see the market rip in a direction. it does happen that news comes out indicating that the market "should" go in a certain direction but if the power houses don't believe in it then the market is going to get added to and move the opposite direction. you learn that by spending some "screen-time"

i have thought to try and convince people to trade with the trend and believe in the trend. it is easier on the longer timeframes as the trend is stronger there, especially on the usd crosses, but it is difficult. So I thought of this way to explain it: how many markets turn on a double top? go and have a look! many many many some even turn on a triple top some on a crown? some on head and shoulders! and the list go on...still people try and pick the top on the first reaction! after you see a double top go and look to the left of it and see how many times did the market have to pass a previous top to get to this turning point? does it then not make sense to buy pullbacks? and NO nobody can tell you when the pullback is over so you can start buying again. you get paid by your profits for getting this right. the easiest for me was to get in with a bit and if it goes against me i cut a bit if it goes for me i add a bit. it's not easy but it can be done if you get a feel for your market. i find that some people try to watch too many currencies at a time and therefore "automate" things - automate your mind and you won't look back.

i have thought of many analogies to explain the focus we need to keep on our currencies we have decided to trade and the best I can think of is the way lions hunt. think about it- a lioness stalks her prey and out of a herd of maybe 100 impala it will keep its eyes on the 1 single impala it wants to catch, even if another impala runs through its vision it will never move its eyes to this "closer" impala. the lioness knows, if she moves her eyes from her target she will not be able to re-focus on it in all the confusion of a running herd. The lioness will either get the prey or nothing at all she does not jump around because she knows -if she wants to eat she must stay focused!

So focus on those you have an interest in and focus on your setups be that technical or reactions to fundamentals or more importantly - your money management plan.

Please excuse typos and syntax

Hope this helped
  • #226
  • Aug 1, 2007 1:16pm Aug 1, 2007 1:16pm
MrFuture,
Thanks for the UBS link, That's an amazing looking place they posted.

Otherwise, what you said reminds me, that everything is relative, and it depends on your perspective.
Everything in the world starts out boring and mundane, and everything in the world talks about networking and starting at the bottom. Then you mention the money issue too, which does actually prevent some of us from persuing what we'd all like to do. If I had a pip for everytime I heard this speech online, in person, or in a textbook... Plus, I'd rather spend 3 hours on a train in Miami than 3 hours on I-4.

It's all perception and background. Unless your parents are executives at Ford and your job is all lined up for you, we're all stuck like this no matter the industry. Some of us take it better than others.
What I like to do in these situations now is simple. I think about all the other jobs I've had, or the horrible things other people have to do, then see the good things. Like spending 3 hours on a train versus hours a day in a car dealing with nutcases with no insurance. Of course nothing beats 5 minutes. But next time you hate the commute, think of anyone in Orlando, or Los Angeles, or me, then take a nap!
Works everytime. Nothing I hate more than remedial office jobs, but go out there and do a non-office job with inconsistant hours or graveyard shift, not as bad anymore!

Perception and background. You've also taken that step to get into what you like and want to do. Some people don't even make it that far when given all the obstacles.
  • #227
  • Aug 1, 2007 1:57pm Aug 1, 2007 1:57pm
Hi guys,

I enjoyed your two post the most alongside with that of trader888...

I ve been a stockbroker for only a couple of month now...and I know how it is Mr.Future...you're totally right about the part that it doesnt matter how good of an analyst you are...u have to be a great salesman...or know people who have millions to give...I mean dont get me wrong...I ve opened my share of accounts...but in the end...it takes a long time to build a decsent relationship with your clients so that they will actually pour in the money...but trader888 is right, at least its not my money I lost

Turret...your post backed up my intial point about how much money a trader can actually make...

you see I had want to be a doctor/plastic surgeon once...for the safety of the high income, and the benefit of knowing I can for sure get a really high income job right out of school...without experience, or connections, or needing to work only for top firms

its really funny...because my doctor had suggest that i be a trader...if its money I want...he said that he knew several traders that make more than 5 million from bonuses alone...I was shocked...nah...mortified...my doctor also mentioned he had clients from the shrimping business...which also made millions...but I no like sea food

OF course now I know that being a trader for a company is more than just hard...its almost impossible...most job opening for junior trader all say the same thing: top school, top gpa, only majors in econ, finance, math, or hard science...and at least 2 years of past experience

But I ve been able to find some firms in UK who are actually looking for junior trader openings...I ve been considered...but I doubt I get the position...and I dont want to move to the UK...one of my friend went from broker to trader...I dont know how...he wont tell me...

truth be told...its not just about trading or money or the women...its about the life I should have had...the life I should have had...but I dont mind, I ve never been popular, or will liked with the ladies, or sought after as someone who is really cool and classy and rich and handsome or the whole bad boy imgae...I ve been geek/nice guy/the reliable family man all my life...you know watever
  • #228
  • Aug 1, 2007 2:23pm Aug 1, 2007 2:23pm
I will add my two cents.

I am finishing an MS and have no interest in working for a company. I am starting a hedge fund w/ some partners.

There is definitely an element of sales involved. My partners are investing based on facts. I show them risk:reward based on various investment models, and they know exactly what they are getting into.

Because I believe in the tremendous potential based on backtesting, the genuine passion I exude is a plus. If I weren't confident w/ the facts I present, they wouldn't be interested.

So, in conclusion, people invest based on POTENTIAL. It helps that I know these people personally, because I have to see them at parties around town, and my credibility is on the line.
  • #229
  • Aug 1, 2007 2:27pm Aug 1, 2007 2:27pm
From the short time I've been in the financial industry, it is now pretty clear that the successful Financial Advisors are the ones who have at least one of these things in common:

- Wealthy Family (which translates to rich friends and connections)

- Support from the firm (every now and then, big financial companies "pick" a person who they think could do good and "spoon feed" him with large accounts.

- The luck of becoming part of a "team" of expereinced Financial Advisors who will give you accounts as they leave/change company.

Otherwise, you are pretty much left alone walking the streets trying to convince millionaires to invest money with you. That is why about only 17% of new FA's survive in the industry the first 2 years....

It is pretty simple, your client's money is your ammonition, without it you are done, even if you pick the best funds....

BTW I am glad you guys liked the pictures...pretty amazing uh ? They are in the Guinness Book of Records

Future
"Lunch ? Lunch Is For Wimps !"
  • #230
  • Edited 2:57pm Aug 1, 2007 2:30pm | Edited 2:57pm
hi trader888

I wanted to ask you on your thoughts of the different natures of currencies...

I know you are trading EUR/GBP...thats a very slow moving currency...so it makes sense to make out its trend by the week or month...

what about a high moving currency like GBP/JPY...it can easily stack up 200-300 pips in a week even through counter trend...because I was going along with carry trade a 2 month ago and did well, but recently lost all of it in last weeks down turn.

also tidion...between me and you, where do u go for MS...and how are the parites there?girls? just for chills
  • #231
  • Aug 1, 2007 7:42pm Aug 1, 2007 7:42pm
I also would like to ask a question to Trader888 if you do not mind.

I was doing some research on UBS and found out that back in 2003 or something, Bank of America sued 5 of its former traders for going to UBS. Basically BofA was upset that these traders were going to use BofA's "trading secrets" somewhere else.

This made me wonder: are there such "secrets" among traders that work at a specific company ?

How independent is a trader in truth ? Is it mostly executing orders that come from a big boss, or did you make all of your decisions based on your own personal trading style ?

I am trying to understand how it really works....I would assume you trade in your way but then again, it seems there are trading "secrets" that each company has.

Thank you for your time

Future
"Lunch ? Lunch Is For Wimps !"
  • #232
  • Aug 2, 2007 1:22am Aug 2, 2007 1:22am
MrFuture,

Basically we would have meetings on Mondays and express our thoughts so everyone knew what the others were thinking. We also received info on expected client flows and big deals we would do in that week that could affect the banks currency position so we were asked to take this into consideration when opening large positions.

Making decisions was up to you but it was considered stupid to go against the view of the larger desk - the bank is not making any money if they are $100bar long and you are short $10bar so you try and align your view with that of the larger bank or stay sidelined if you differ. As you make name less traders will oppose your view. Sometimes you trade and keep your cards close to your chest even from the other guys in your team so you don't antagonise them by going against them. Also it doesn't always make sense to have 4 guys and all of them trade in the same direction...why not just have 1 guy with 4 times the limit? Thats where I learned that even between 4 guys trading the same direction you can still have 1 losing while the others win as it all boils down to when you pull the plug.

One guy had quite an elaborate mathematical system and when he left us it was also put to him that the system belongs to the bank so he left it with them. Needless to say about 3 months later the system stopped working (the suspicion exist that he boobytrapped it, but nothing could be proved) and nobody in the bank tried to fix it as it was too complicated if you were not involved from the start.

I think the only real secrets that are kept by a bank is its knowledge of transactions it would have to execute sometime in the future. We definately did not have a magic black box telling us what to trade. Individual traders however did develop their own software like the EA's used by metatrader but this was never bank property as the bank would not know how to use it should the trader not support it. There was once a guy who developed something good on the interest rate desk and he offered it for purchase to the bank. The bank declined (even after his yearly P&L proved it to be consistent) so he took it and left the bank and went to a competitor. The bank only later realised what they have done. The sophistication of certain managers is not always what it should be.

xxfunguyxx
i don't really look at gbpjpy or any jpy cross for that matter at the moment. but just reading your comment it seems that you either neglected to move your stops closer to the action or did not take into account the kind of pullbacks gbpjpy could make. either your stop must be 1000 pips down to prevent a correction stopping you out or you should have stops staggered closer to the market to ensure that if the correction happen you get stopped out with some profit. Eurgbp as an example: the last time i wrote about it i was short at various levels above 6714 6758 6790 so when it hit down to the figure i closed a lot of it but kept some so when it went to 6690 i moved my stops to area 6715 6725 6735 and got stopped there on this recent reaction - i have again shorted it at 6745 as i am trading still thinking that eur will lag gbp going up but lead it going down. i will close the short at intervals going up to 6825 and add to it going down. If it does go to 6825 i will be out of it all and start a new short if it reaches 6825 and then drops below 6800 again. but only time will tell what the sentiment will be when those levels are reached.

Hope this helped
  • #233
  • Aug 2, 2007 1:39am Aug 2, 2007 1:39am
Quoting Trader888
There was once a guy who developed something good on the interest rate desk and he offered it for purchase to the bank. The bank declined (even after his yearly P&L proved it to be consistent) so he took it and left the bank and went to a competitor. The bank only later realised what they have done. The sophistication of certain managers is not always what it should be.
Hope this helped
explain, if u may, the "interest rate desk" and their operation
100% of traders are losers. Just that some win more than they lose!
  • #234
  • Aug 2, 2007 1:48am Aug 2, 2007 1:48am
Quoting MrFuture
By the way, for those who have never seen it before, this is UBS trading floor...pretty sweet


http://advancedtrading.com/galleries...l?galleryID=20


Future
I told ya we were just a spec of dirt in a marl heap
100% of traders are losers. Just that some win more than they lose!
  • #235
  • Aug 2, 2007 10:24am Aug 2, 2007 10:24am
Hi Trader888, Great posts.

I learned a good while ago something that you have confirmed again here is that the entry is probably the least important thing in a trade plan. That's why most of the systems on this forum are incomplete- because they mention nothing about how to mange your trade once your in.

Moreover it is where you exit and how many times you exit and under what circumstances you do so. Also how many lots you put on in relation to your other trades etc

What I wanted to ask is how does your 'trade plan' come about? What is the set of questions/criteria you ask before each trade?

I liked your post on the EURGBP, will you typically always scale out say three times and in again three or four on the way back? How do you protect your profit, I know you mentioned moving your stoplosses?

Also, how regularly do/did you check your stats? %win, biggest win and loss, longest drawdown etc? and how do you use them?

Appreciate your help,

-Jerry
pessimism of the intellect and optimism of the will
  • #236
  • Aug 2, 2007 11:30am Aug 2, 2007 11:30am
Quoting xxfunguyxx
one of my friend went from broker to trader...I dont know how...he wont tell me...
Doesn't sound like much of a friend if you ask me..
  • #237
  • Aug 2, 2007 3:00pm Aug 2, 2007 3:00pm
Quoting Trader KGB
Doesn't sound like much of a friend if you ask me..
"Everyone's your friend until the rent comes due."
Never underestimate the powers of the Force.
  • #238
  • Aug 3, 2007 2:39am Aug 3, 2007 2:39am
I recently met a trader who worked in the forex department of a bank here. While he had only been trading 5 years so obviously still relatively new, a lot of what he said echoes what has already been mentioned here and what we have probably heard elsewhere and read in many books. His advice for starting out was to stick to one or two currency pairs at most until you understood how and why they moved the way they did. He rarely used indicators anymore, if he did it was only as a kind of basic guide and nothing more, he definitely did not enter and exit trades solely on what RSI (his indicator of choice) was telling him. He traded primarily off the daily chart, he would use lower timeframes to help him get a better entry, but daily and 4 hour were the two main charts he looked at. Entries for him were simply based on an area where he thought there was sufficient support if he was looking to go long and resistance if he was looking to go short. Trades were held for a few days, typically anywhere up to a week at most. He read the news, especially interest rates and would try to get a feel for the long term direction of the pair and what was making it move in that direction. Exits werent so clear but from what I could tell, he would want at least to make more than he risked, but beyond that I dont know. For me it was a rather big eye opener. His charts were very clean and only had daily bars and RSI showing. Now I am not saying everyone has to trade like that or that it is the best way to trade, but it was interesting to see how he traded and how simple he had kept everything compared to the cluttered charts we sometime see in system threads.
  • #239
  • Aug 3, 2007 2:41am Aug 3, 2007 2:41am
Quoting Trader888
MrFuture,

Basically we would have meetings on Mondays and express our thoughts so everyone knew what the others were thinking. We also received info on expected client flows and big deals we would do in that week that could affect the banks currency position so we were asked to take this into consideration when opening large positions.

Making decisions was up to you but it was considered stupid to go against the view of the larger desk - the bank is not making any money if they are $100bar long and you are short $10bar so you try and align your view with that of the larger bank or stay sidelined if you differ. As you make name less traders will oppose your view. Sometimes you trade and keep your cards close to your chest even from the other guys in your team so you don't antagonise them by going against them. Also it doesn't always make sense to have 4 guys and all of them trade in the same direction...why not just have 1 guy with 4 times the limit? Thats where I learned that even between 4 guys trading the same direction you can still have 1 losing while the others win as it all boils down to when you pull the plug.

One guy had quite an elaborate mathematical system and when he left us it was also put to him that the system belongs to the bank so he left it with them. Needless to say about 3 months later the system stopped working (the suspicion exist that he boobytrapped it, but nothing could be proved) and nobody in the bank tried to fix it as it was too complicated if you were not involved from the start.

I think the only real secrets that are kept by a bank is its knowledge of transactions it would have to execute sometime in the future. We definately did not have a magic black box telling us what to trade. Individual traders however did develop their own software like the EA's used by metatrader but this was never bank property as the bank would not know how to use it should the trader not support it. There was once a guy who developed something good on the interest rate desk and he offered it for purchase to the bank. The bank declined (even after his yearly P&L proved it to be consistent) so he took it and left the bank and went to a competitor. The bank only later realised what they have done. The sophistication of certain managers is not always what it should be.

xxfunguyxx
i don't really look at gbpjpy or any jpy cross for that matter at the moment. but just reading your comment it seems that you either neglected to move your stops closer to the action or did not take into account the kind of pullbacks gbpjpy could make. either your stop must be 1000 pips down to prevent a correction stopping you out or you should have stops staggered closer to the market to ensure that if the correction happen you get stopped out with some profit. Eurgbp as an example: the last time i wrote about it i was short at various levels above 6714 6758 6790 so when it hit down to the figure i closed a lot of it but kept some so when it went to 6690 i moved my stops to area 6715 6725 6735 and got stopped there on this recent reaction - i have again shorted it at 6745 as i am trading still thinking that eur will lag gbp going up but lead it going down. i will close the short at intervals going up to 6825 and add to it going down. If it does go to 6825 i will be out of it all and start a new short if it reaches 6825 and then drops below 6800 again. but only time will tell what the sentiment will be when those levels are reached.

Hope this helped
thanks a lot.
  • #240
  • Aug 3, 2007 4:08pm Aug 3, 2007 4:08pm
Fun video about a company trader in a movie (at least how a director movie think it is.. lol)

good weekend to all

Matty

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