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Call me Vidvad - I day trade futures

  • #481
  • Dec 28, 2024 12:43pm Dec 28, 2024 12:43pm
Quoting vidvad
On Discretion in Trading ...
This text is too long. I am playing around with notebooklm.google

Here are key elements for successful trading, according to the sources:

Objective and rule-based system: A trading system should be objective and rule-based, specifying when to enter, take profit, and take a loss. If you find yourself asking "Why did you enter here?" then the system likely relies on too much discretion and is not worth studying.

No Discretion: The sources argue against discretion, saying that it is corrosive to a trading plan. Successful traders, like Gonzalo Garcia-Pelayo, follow a precise plan and bet only their edge, without deviating.

Money management: A proper money management plan adjusts trade size based on equity growth and drawdowns, maintaining a constant risk percentage of the bankroll. This also requires no discretion.

Specific entry, stop loss, and take profit: A trading plan must define when to take profit and when to stop out for a loss. A simple method like "buy when price is above VWAP" is not enough; you need specific rules for profit limits and stop losses.

Mindfulness: Traders must cultivate mindfulness to recognize when they are in "tilt" so they can stop before losing too much. Tilt is caused by discretion.

Focus on trading behavior: Instead of chasing indicators, traders should focus on their own trading behavior, emotional discipline, and mindfulness.

Edge: Successful traders identify an edge where the probability of a chosen trading instrument moving in a certain direction is higher. The trading plan then seeks to capture profits from this edge while minimizing losses.

Simplicity: Trading plans do not need to be overly complicated. The author of the source has simplified their own trading, using a 15-minute bar chart with price levels from daily and weekly charts, and has removed most indicators.

Consistency: Consistency is key. Even if a trading system is profitable for the author, it is difficult to replicate if it involves too much discretion.
I might be wrong , I have been wrong before
  • #482
  • Dec 28, 2024 1:12pm Dec 28, 2024 1:12pm
Quoting driven18
**Discretion is the enemy. It is the genie that tempts you to tilt. It is the devil that draws you to your own destruction. There is no room for discretion in trading.** I, personally do not care about anything outside of my plan for the past 3 years. Statistics - Yes, they are part of my plan. Discretion - Never. Only plan! 1 - 2 - 3, rinse and repeat.
You have some good points there. (I'm guilty of using discretion when I know I shouldn't!)
  • #483
  • Edited 2:36pm Dec 28, 2024 1:50pm | Edited 2:36pm
Quoting Mandariin
{quote} This text is too long.
Why read all of Crime and Punishment when you can just read the Cliff Notes?

Getting the "gist" of something isn't the same as getting the full depth of meaning. There is an experience that goes into the writing of an essay that ChatGPT will not comprehend as AI's "experience" is not in the same realm as human experience.
Life itself is a privilege, but to live life to the fullest is a choice
  • #484
  • Edited 2:33pm Dec 28, 2024 2:20pm | Edited 2:33pm
Quoting Zennie
{quote} You have some good points there. (I'm guilty of using discretion when I know I shouldn't!)
Recommendations:

1. Spend years working on your edge on demo and when believe you acquired it, slowly "up the ante" going live with 0.1 conttact + 0.1, etc..
2. Understand that Edge means in a matter of importance. Entry - 10%, MM - 40%, Mindfulness(Fear and Greed) - 50%
3. Stop being guilty using discretion, as you will realize, that no one human with an "edge" knows what will happen with the trade 1 second from opening it.
4. Stick to your plan now and forever if statistics confirm your edge.

Only 5% of traders will understand what I mean, 95% will move on to look for better indicator or for better entry.
  • #485
  • Dec 28, 2024 3:36pm Dec 28, 2024 3:36pm
Quoting driven18
**Discretion is the enemy. It is the genie that tempts you to tilt. It is the devil that draws you to your own destruction. There is no room for discretion in trading.** I, personally do not care about anything outside of my plan for the past 3 years. Statistics - Yes, they are part of my plan. Discretion - Never. Only plan! 1 - 2 - 3, rinse and repeat.
driven, I agree with your sentiments… But
When I look at myself in the mirror I still see the devil of discretion sitting on my shoulder. How do I know you may ask? I have not been able to compile my trading/system/s into an automated process. An EA.
I have refined ( refined is far too delicate a term ) my psychology to that of a virtual trade intermediary, but to say I have removed all perceptible traces of discretion would be untrue.
Discretion is thy friend and enemy.
One must use discretion with discretion.
  • #486
  • Dec 28, 2024 5:05pm Dec 28, 2024 5:05pm
Quoting DwnUndrTrdr
{quote} driven, I agree with your sentiments… But When I look at myself in the mirror I still see the devil of discretion sitting on my shoulder. How do I know you may ask? I have not been able to compile my trading/system/s into an automated process. An EA. I have refined ( refined is far too delicate a term ) my psychology to that of a virtual trade intermediary, but to say I have removed all perceptible traces of discretion would be untrue. Discretion is thy friend and enemy. One must use discretion with discretion.
Remove it, there is no choice. Let your ea follow your edge and see statistics. If stats are bad, move on. Simple
  • #487
  • Dec 28, 2024 5:24pm Dec 28, 2024 5:24pm
Quoting DwnUndrTrdr
{quote} I still see the devil of discretion sitting on my shoulder. How do I know you may ask? I have not been able to compile my trading/system/s into an automated process. An EA.
Write your method using plain language. If you can't write it in plain language on, say a 3"X5" index card and in such clear commands that you could hand it to any other experienced FF member and that member could then trade your method, then the problem is the method is flawed. If you cannot write it in plain language you will not be able to compile it using the programming language of your trading platform.

GIGO.

Garbage in, garbage out.

Discretion is garbage.

Quoting DwnUndrTrdr
{quote} Discretion is thy friend and enemy. One must use discretion with discretion.
One must use discretion with discretion except when trading, during which one must not use any discretion at all.

Think of the problem of developing a trading edge as an engineering assignment. You aren't going to design a bridge, for example, and when you find that the issue of using the appropriate deep water anchors appears as particularly intractable, you aren't going to hand the plans to your construction crew and tell them to "use your discretion for selecting the pilings." So too with trading: You must develop a solid, stand on its own method with an edge. Leaving any part of your plan open to discretion means the plan is incomplete and that discretionary element is a weakness that will, imo, always prove fatal. In the case of the bridge such discretion will be fatal to the construction crew or to the public users of that bridge. In the case of the discretionary trading plan that discretion will inevitably prove fatal to your trading account.

Discretion is the enemy of trading.
Life itself is a privilege, but to live life to the fullest is a choice
  • #488
  • Dec 28, 2024 5:25pm Dec 28, 2024 5:25pm
Quoting driven18
{quote} Remove it, there is no choice. Let your ea follow your edge and see statistics. If stats are bad, move on. Simple
And if cannot compile his edge in an EA, then he doesn't have an edge.
Life itself is a privilege, but to live life to the fullest is a choice
  • #489
  • Dec 28, 2024 5:29pm Dec 28, 2024 5:29pm
Quoting vidvad
{quote} And if cannot compile his edge in an EA, then he doesn't have an edge.
  • #490
  • Dec 28, 2024 9:15pm Dec 28, 2024 9:15pm
Thank you Vidvad and everyone for your sharing. A very insightful and helpful dialogue going on here that cuts through the chase and gets right to the core of what it takes to be a successful trader. All the best everyone
  • #491
  • Jan 1, 2025 10:03am Jan 1, 2025 10:03am
Clear-eyed explanation of how prop accounts work. You r account size is the MLL, or Max Loss Limit. For most firms, a "$50K" evaluation account buys you a $2000 leash. As this trader says, build on that and you can get paid as a trader. Most who sign up for prop firms never get to their first payout because the rtruth is that most of us lack the discipline NOT to tilt.

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Life itself is a privilege, but to live life to the fullest is a choice
  • #492
  • Jan 1, 2025 10:58am Jan 1, 2025 10:58am
I don't have much time to read through Topstep's discord server and with no work, the market closed, and the rest of my family sleeping off New Year's Eve, I was doing some browsing this morning.

After reading a few posts were people mention losing accounts, everything from evals, to funded sims to funded live accounts because of going on Tilt, I did a quick search for the word Tilt on Topstep's channel. 4,203 mentions and counting!

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I thought this exchange below provides an interesting insight. Is Tilt caused by focusing on P/L? I would say that it probably is. As this trader noted, that focus on P/L is focus on specific trade outcomes, and thus it prevents focus on process.

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Process over outcome is the approach Mark Douglas has been teaching since he published his first book, The Disciplined Trader almost 35 years ago.
Life itself is a privilege, but to live life to the fullest is a choice
  • #493
  • Jan 1, 2025 11:25am Jan 1, 2025 11:25am
Quoting vidvad
Process over outcome is the approach Mark Douglas has been teaching since he published his first book, The Disciplined Trader almost 35 years ago.
You are right, only thing we have control over is following process.
TILT for me is - total loss of control.

Lot of people fail because :

- I need to push and make 400$ more to pass Combine, rebilling date is in 3 days
- I need 20$ more to pass Combine
- I need 5th +200$ day to get a 1st payout

But what usually follows is TILT and blown account again.
I might be wrong , I have been wrong before
  • #494
  • Jan 1, 2025 12:00pm Jan 1, 2025 12:00pm
Quoting Mandariin
{quote} You are right, only thing we have control over is following process. TILT for me is - total loss of control. Lot of people fail because : - I need to push and make 400$ more to pass Combine, rebilling date is in 3 days - I need 20$ more to pass Combine - I need 5th +200$ day to get a 1st payout But what usually follows is TILT and blown account again.
You are exactly right. And i think the prop firms know this and build rules ... "rules" that tempt Tilt and failure and blown accounts.

I do think Topstep is one of the better firms. TradeDay is another top prop firm, imo.

Apex is the dungeon. The live trailing stop exists for no other reason than to blow accounts.

The live trailing drawdown promotes scalping and taking quick profits with Apex during the evaluation stage. Then, once you are funded, they use scalping and taking quick profits as a reason to deny you your payout.

But all of these firms (except for TradeDay, are set up to take advantage of their very human flaws that cause widespread failure in trading.

Thank you for sharing, Mandariin!
Life itself is a privilege, but to live life to the fullest is a choice
  • #495
  • Jan 1, 2025 1:10pm Jan 1, 2025 1:10pm
Quoting vidvad
{quote} You are exactly right. And i think the prop firms know this and build rules ... "rules" that tempt Tilt and failure and blown accounts. I do think Topstep is one of the better firms. TradeDay is another top prop firm, imo. Apex is the dungeon. The live trailing stop exists for no other reason than to blow accounts. The live trailing drawdown promotes scalping and taking quick profits with Apex during the evaluation stage. Then, once you are funded, they use scalping and taking quick profits as a reason to deny you your payout. But all of...
Maybe trading Micro Futures wirh just a couple of thousand pounds/dollars would remove the temptation to 'tilt' and giveyou greater control, assuming you have an edge and discipline.
every Saint has a past. Every Sinner has a Future
  • #496
  • Jan 1, 2025 2:02pm Jan 1, 2025 2:02pm
Quoting turnip15
{quote} Maybe trading Micro Futures wirh just a couple of thousand pounds/dollars would remove the temptation to 'tilt' and giveyou greater control, assuming you have an edge and discipline.
Good suggestion, turnip!

A friend of mine with whom I used to work also trades and he and I had a conversation about Tilt a week or so ago.

I was telling him about my "roulette epiphany" and he said that Tilt had been one of his biggest issues in the past as well. He said that when he finds himself tilting on the verge of tilting, he has finally reached the point where he can stop trading for that day. Then, for the next week, he only allows himself to trade 1 micro and he only watches an hourly chart. He uses a larger than normal stop loss and a larger than normal take profit. Once in a trade, he places his stop loss, take profit, and a "stop and reverse" order if the situation calls for it. Then he sets an alarm on his cell phone and does other work. He won't look at his screen until the current M60 bar is near closing time so he can adjust his stop loss and SAR orders if necessary.

He usually trades 5 to 10 full size NQ's, so if he tilts he can lose a lot of money very quickly. And rather than feeling like he wasted a week trading that 1 micro instead of trading 5 to 10 NQs he feels that putting himself in a 1 micro "timeout" for a week has saved him many times what he would have lost had he kept trading big and gone full tilt. The reason he trades off 1 hour bars is that it forces him to "slow down" rather than pepper the market with trades using the fast charts he usually uses. I think he uses something like 150 tick charts, which are far too fast for me. Going from 150tick NQ's to 60 minute MNQs must feel like almost being at a standstill.
Life itself is a privilege, but to live life to the fullest is a choice
  • #497
  • Jan 1, 2025 3:42pm Jan 1, 2025 3:42pm
"Tilt" is just an emotion and a part of the Mindfulness trading, I call it MindFuck, it is where Fear and Greed overtakes the trader.

When trader has statistically viable strategy/trading plan including Money Management and Mindfulness, there is no place for "tilt" in it.

Point is, if one does go on tilt, it means that trader is not ready to be profitable.

Tilt does not exist for 5% of the successful traders.
  • #498
  • Jan 1, 2025 3:48pm Jan 1, 2025 3:48pm
Quoting driven18
"Tilt" is just an emotion and a part of the Mindfulness trading, I call it MindFuck, it is where Fear and Greed overtakes the trader. When trader has statistically viable strategy/trading plan including Money Management and Mindfulness, there is no place for "tilt" in it. Point is, if one does go on tilt, it means that trader is not ready to be profitable. Tilt does not exist for 5% of the successful traders.
There is no place for tilt, and yet there it is, always just around the next corner, or doggedly tracking the trader down, its hot breath on the back of the trader's neck.

The roulette epiphany is an anti-tilt tool in many respects.
Life itself is a privilege, but to live life to the fullest is a choice
  • #499
  • Jan 1, 2025 4:00pm Jan 1, 2025 4:00pm
I disagree,

if one is a "good trader", you have no tilt. That tilt should be left behind when graduating from losing to winning trader. If one is still experiencing "tilt" - graduation to winning trader is "hopefully" still ahead.
  • #500
  • Edited 6:39pm Jan 3, 2025 6:15pm | Edited 6:39pm
Quoting driven18
"Tilt" is just an emotion and a part of the Mindfulness trading, I call it MindFuck, it is where Fear and Greed overtakes the trader. When trader has statistically viable strategy/trading plan including Money Management and Mindfulness, there is no place for "tilt" in it. Point is, if one does go on tilt, it means that trader is not ready to be profitable. Tilt does not exist for 5% of the successful traders.
Hi driven

Tilt is also a problem for the 5% of winning traders because a trading edge is never guaranteed each day. No body can be sure they will start the trading day with an edge, they start as a C rated trader only because every single trading day is different from previous history. That Double top on Dow opening range may work on Monday session but may fail today badly and will we have an edge that's able to be adapted quickly to the changing market conditions TODAY.
Myself - I have NO edge on a Monday generally (80% of my losing days are always Monday's) but find I MAY have an edge on Tuesday to Friday if I can ADAPT as a trader should that generally does have an edge. I have no idea whether Tuesday will be a winning day therefore, I start as a C rated trader and try and read the price action of the DAY successfully and attempt to end as a A rated trader by the day's close.

NO ONE has any bloody right to claim they have an trading edge before they take their first trade of the day, that badge is only presented at day's end.
Their P & L tells a truthful story, an trading edge boast is more about ego.
Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
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