Market Makers & ECN’s, Is the grass greener?

Quoting mmccormac

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So how do we find out who is a partner with Fxmarketspace once it's active? If EFX Group or MB Trading did this it would be great. That would be tons of liquidity. The only problem I have with EFX Group is they don't pay good on swap (rollover). This is the one thing most traders don't even pay attention to and it's sizeable if you have any carry trades. For instance the carry trade on GBP/JPY can be around $7,200 per month on only 1m of position size. I know most people are in and out so quick it doesn't matter, but it does matter to me. Other than that I like the looks of EFX.

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Quoting risktaker989

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i looked into EFX...they're just a white-label of MBtrading. MBtrading might be okay for your needs except that their access to the FX market is quite small. they built their business on equities trading...FX is relatively new for them.if you're going to be trading size then you're probably better off looking at one of the bigger market makers mentioned throughout this forum. if you're going to be trading a small account (less than $5,000) then EFX/MBtrading will probably be okay. just watch out for the commissions they charge on top of the spread...do the math and figure out if it amounts to much for how much you'll typically be trading.

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Quoting fxchant

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I'm always amazed when people say this. EFX is not a white label of MB at all. MB and EFX are both IB's of MBTF. MB is for cross-asset-class traders and EFX is for forex traders specifically. EFX has the Forex Pro, which I use, and MB doesn't. EFX customer service is superior. I don't see where people come up with some of this stuff that a little research could give you correct answers to.

Back to the topic of this board, are we basically all in agreement now that the FXMarketplace is just going to be a place for the big boys to pass orders back and forth? Doesn't sound like it is going to do much for the retail guy unless the platforms pass along the liquidity directly. Am I right? Seems like EFX is still the place to be in the meantime until something like the FXMarketplace becomes usable by us.

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Quoting risktaker989

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hi, i understand what you mean.

no offense intended, but being an IB doesn't mean you can not be a white-label. and sorry for not being absolutely clear...MBTF is what i meant (the entity registered with the CFTC).

it's a common practice in the futures industry for a corporate entity to be a broker/dealer's IB via a white-label arrangement if they have a brand they want to maintain. drawing on the exact words of EFX from their website, "EFX Group is an affiliated introducing firm for MB Trading Futures, Inc (MBTF)...". so this means they have the same type of relationship that RefcoFX had with Refco Group (and we all know what good that did). i almost lost my money in the Refco mess and only withdrew once i learned that RefcoFX wasn't actually directly registered. EFX is not directly registered.

but the original point of my earlier post was that EFX doesn't actually make a market since the trades you place through them clear through MBTF so why wouldn't a retail trader not just trade direct with MBTF which is an actual registered entity with the CFTC?

given a choice, i'd rather do business with an actual registered entity especially after seeing how the Refco stuff turned out.

and to keep this post relevant to the thread...yes, i also believe the fxmarketspace product will have an impact on futures trading/liquidity more so in the sense that it will help make futures broker/dealers potentially more profitable but this will not necessarily translate into savings for retail traders. this is primarily because the product was designed to be used on the institutional level to create cost savings for the broker/dealer (who may or may not pass on the savings to its customers). unfortunately, this product will have no impact on the spot fx market (which is what i trade).

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Quoting FXopportunist

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Actually, FxMarketspace is spot, not futures and could have many interesting effects on the Forex market. Time will tell.

FXO

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Quoting risktaker989

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it's a common practice in the futures industry for a corporate entity to be a broker/dealer's IB via a white-label arrangement if they have a brand they want to maintain. drawing on the exact words of EFX from their website, "EFX Group is an affiliated introducing firm for MB Trading Futures, Inc (MBTF)...". so this means they have the same type of relationship that RefcoFX had with Refco Group (and we all know what good that did). i almost lost my money in the Refco mess and only withdrew once i learned that RefcoFX wasn't actually directly registered. EFX is not directly registered.

but the original point of my earlier post was that EFX doesn't actually make a market since the trades you place through them clear through MBTF so why wouldn't a retail trader not just trade direct with MBTF which is an actual registered entity with the CFTC?

given a choice, i'd rather do business with an actual registered entity especially after seeing how the Refco stuff turned out.

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Quoting shrike

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When you open an account with EFX (or mbt) you sign agreements/application-forms for MBTF, you send funds to MBTF. IIRC i didnt even see the name "EFX" on any of the application-forms. So you would actually be doing business with a registered entity.

Their company-setup isnt directly compareable to Refco, Refcos FX was partly an offshore-operation (no regulation), funds were held at Refco Capital Markets Ltd. (Bermuda), future accounts were with Refco LLC (Chicago) and ROL Ltd. (London). What is compareable is the MBTF also is an future/equities broker, so in case of bancrupcy future-clients would be credited first and whatever is left would be split among FX clients. At least MBTF doesnt involve anything offshore. Thats my understanding of the matter anyways.

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Quoting sp123

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i'd like some opinions here....i'm a newbie. Do most of u guys feel comfortable using ecn's with limit orders? As long as no market orders are placed to u feel u'r relatively safe from getting burned? It seems that the way i trade (not news, but small stops/ small gains) would be more profitable with an ecn bec i could trade between the spreed. But i can't afford to get my account wiped out! so i'm still kinda concerned here.... so do most of u feel comfortable as long as u use limit orders?

sp

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Quoting turbokaos

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Mate I never use mkt orders. and I think so far my worst slippage has been 6pips, in fact most time I get a better fill than I expected.

fore example I had an order to buy the GBP if it broke 1.9900 and i got filled at 1.9891



Yes trading in between the spread and having the ability to get hit on your bid/offers can really had up

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Quoting turbokaos

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Mate I never use mkt orders. and I think so far my worst slippage has been 6pips, in fact most time I get a better fill than I expected.

fore example I had an order to buy the GBP if it broke 1.9900 and i got filled at 1.9891

Yes trading in between the spread and having the ability to get hit on your bid/offers can really had up

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Quoting merlin

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well we dont do stickies in main forum, but i think we should get this thread roaring and then sticky it in the broker forum...nice job btw!

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Quoting FXopportunist

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Market Makers & ECN’s Is the grass greener ?

This topic is discussed constantly by traders, journeyman and newcomers alike. And to answer the question we have to get to the truth, examine the differences and define our needs. This writings purpose is to bring what I have learned together in a manner that will save many from hours of searching, reading, trial and error.

The Stage

Broker complaints and debates have gone on since they have existed. But lately, this topic has been hotter than ever. Why? Because, things are changing. And, when you change things people get upset. Hey, my spreads never widened before or what the heck! I never got slipped like that! So, why is all of this happening now?

Retail trading strategies around news have been changing. The little guys are getting in on the data game. It is not hard to see the tremendous profit potential possible on many of these economic reports. Some retail traders are getting news services, some are joining data release signal clubs and a large number are just straddling their favorite pair before the release.

The market makers dilemma

So, how does this change anything and why would ECN style brokers be any better? Well, the answer lies in the market makers liquidity providers and their relationship with the global interbank market. This is not so easily defined because these relation ships can come in many forms. But, this explanation will apply to most retail brokers.

As most of you know, retail brokers are the counter party to all of your transactions. When trading on the exchanges, Joe sells and another member Mary buys and the exchange broker merely gets a commission for facilitating the deal. At BigretailFX when Joe buys BigretailFX is selling and when Joe sells BigretailFX is buying. BigretailFX may take Joe’s position and cover it with their liquidity provider, they may put it into a pool and then take a position with their liquidity provider that equals their total position or they may just hold it in house knowing that Joe is probably going to lose anyway. In any case, there is a step or most often two between Joe and the community of banks, hedge funds or other brokers that would have the other end of Joe’s position in an ECN type environment.

These 1 or 2 steps are where the problems start for Joe’s market maker broker during high volatility trading such as economic releases. You see Joe’s broker may have promised him “fixed spreads”, “guaranteed fills”, and/or “zero slippage”. Or, they just may not have slipped him or widened his spreads in the past because it always worked out in their liquidity pools and they want to keep Joe happy.

Then, suddenly, the world changes. More and more of BigretailFX’s customers start trading the news. And, at the same time they are start having incredible success because the market reactions have been very predictable and they have been educated on strategy. Now BigretailFX is in trouble, their business model is not working and they are loosing money like crazy during economic releases. Why? It is those darn 1 or 2 steps between Joe and the greater market. The fact is, good old BigretailFX is selling Joe and hundreds of their clients Euros when no one else in the Forex community would. And, you guessed it, no one will sell them to BigretailFX so they can cover either.

So what does BigretailFX do? If you are a Forex trader, you know the answer oh so well. They widen their spreads, introduce slippage or just shut down during economic releases altogether.

Suspicion and the want for something better

When a trader clicks on buy or sell, he has an expectation of what he thinks will happen. When he ends up in a lesser position than he expected he thinks “What the ….? They screwed me!!!” We have each been there a time or twenty. This very experience starts the thought and from there on forward you are looking out for being “screwed”. So what now? You have decided that your broker is no good. You talk to your fellow traders and they say “I’m getting screwed too”. So, you all start searching. And everywhere you look it seems to be the same old thing. Why? Because everywhere you looked it was pretty much the same old business model.

Are ECNs our savior?

Then one day a new player shows up with promises of a better deal. We have all heard the new sales pitch. “Spreads as low as 1 pip”,“No dealing desk”, “We never take positions against you”, “Straight through processing” and even “True interbank access”. Wow, woohoo this is just what we were waiting for! We quickly open a demo account and see the spreads. Man oh man, we are impressed! “Look at that! One pip on the pound!” But as we begin to try it out suddenly it is not exactly what we had assumed it would be.

The ECN experience

Let’s face it. We all create our expectations based on what we know. And, the fact is, most of us did not really know what to expect out there in the “real” market. So we thought the ECN style brokers will be just like the good ol’ days only days but with tighter spreads and no lousy, cheating dealing desk. This is where we come to terms with those ever present expectations.

The first thing you find out when you open your ECN style account it that there is still slippage. But why? If there is no dealing desk to cheat us, why is there slippage? The reality is, in a true ECN environment,
slippage is a misnomer. Nobody is slipping you. Your ECN style broker is merely providing you what you asked for. You ask for a market order to go long on the euro and that’s what you got. The problem is many of us had no clue what a real market place is about. We thought we could buy the euro at the price on the screen like a tomato with a price tag. Why do we think this? Because, BigretailFX and his competitors trained us to think this way. Retail brokers have spoon fed retail traders simplicity. Some wanted to make it as easy as possible for traders. Others used this trader ignorance of the real market and market prices to steal some additional profits. In a sense, they set themselves up for all of the dissatisfaction and suspicion to come.

You see in real interbank networks, a market order is just that, a request for a euro at the market price. And the market price is not static. It is moving all of the time. Sometimes it is moving very fast. In those conditions, you may request a euro at 1.2750 but in the time it takes for you to push the button, route the order and match a buyer the price could be 1.2752 or in a really volatile market as during economic releases, the next seller might not be available until 1.2780. How many stupid people do you think are out there that want to sell a euro after the Federal Reserve just released a U. S. dollar negative statement? This is the reality of the real market. Sometimes there just isn’t a buyer at the price you want. Because we have been lied to, and some of us flat out cheated in the past, we immediately go into combat mode. “I can’t believe it! These guys are just as bad as the lousy market making broker I just got rid of!”. Well, no, probably not. They are just giving us what we asked for. Unfortunately for us, we didn’t really know what we were asking for.

After a few days with your new ECN style platform you observe your first economic report. And the good news is that you don’t get the ridiculous 20,30 or even 50 pip fixed spread that popped up prior to the data on your BigretailFX platform. But the spreads do widen a few pips and the spread starts dancing like crazy, especially on the pound. The spreads widen, narrow and even invert in a frenzy. And for a few seconds before the release it just looks scary. Banks are pulling order and last minute speculators are taking positions. It looks dangerous because it is. Welcome to the cold cruel world of the real interbank networks. There are no guaranteed stop losses here. Just buyers and sellers and whatever the market will bear.

Commissions are the next consideration. Unlike BigretailFX, the brokers profit is not hidden in the difference between your price and the brokers liquidity providers price. The Bid and Ask you see on the screen is representative of the prices offered in your ECN’s network. So in order for your ECN style broker to profit, they charge you a transaction fee or commission. While the commissions can vary, most retail ECN style brokers commissions average the equivalent of 1 to 2 pips per round turn depending on the currency pair. Just a little math will tell you that in order for your ECN style brokers spreads to be better that your old retail market maker, your ECN style broker must be showing a spread of 1or 2 pips or less. And this may or may not be the case when it is time for you to take a position. So are ECN style broker net spreads really better than your old market maker broker? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

So why all the praise for the ECNs?

In a word, transparency. Or at least the promise of transparency. While some are initially attracted by the spreads, the big draw for ECNs is to see the real market. If we can see the real market, then no one can lie to us or cheat us. And for many, we just want a fair shake. But the thing that must be said here is that, we may have revealed, your old broker may not have been so bad after all. More specifically, your old broker may not have been out to cheat you. BigretailFX is just built on a business model put them in a position that inspires distrust. Throw in the fact that there have been notable amounts of skullduggery by retail brokers over the years and you have a Forex market begging for transparency. Are ECNs style brokers truly transparent? Not really. Unless you have central clearing where everyone, including the retail trader, has access to the feeds then it is not truly transparent. But they are a good step in the right direction.

Run straight to your nearest ECN? Not so fast.

As we discovered, your old market maker broker may not be obsolete just yet. In fact, many of them have features that are an advantage or just down right prudent for new or small account traders. Some market maker brokers guarantee no negative balances. Which means you can never lose more money than you have in your account. This is a huge plus and a very smart safety feature. Also, you won’t find any ECN style brokers that guarantee stop losses. These features alone can make them the only choice for many. Many market maker brokers also have leverage up to 400 to 1. This may be attractive to some and makes those stop loss and no negative balance guarantees all the more important. Let’s face it, if you need 400 to 1 you had better have no negative balance protection! Last but not least is the advantage of fixed spreads. If you trade at odd times like early in the Asian market timeslot, fixed spreads can be better than the interbank, especially on the pound.

So, is the grass greener with ECN style brokers?

The answer is up to you. We now have a much better idea of each broker’s structure and advantages. In general, I will state that experienced, active Forex traders will probably be happier with and ECN style broker. While a new trader, in need of simplicity and financial safety will likely be better off with a quality market making broker that has these safety features. After all I have learned, for now, I will have one of each.

-The FxOpportunist-

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