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Lack of emotions?

  • #1
  • First Post: Jul 11, 2007 9:44am Jul 11, 2007 9:44am
Here’s a question that has been plaguing me for the last day or so.

I’ve blown three mini-accounts in my day. Recently, I opened up number 4 after taking nearly a year off of live trading to get things together and demo my way to a real account again. I would like to think that I have the hang of it now, at least I can tread water. I feel confident.

Anyway, yesterday I entered my orders (entry, stops, take-profits) in the morning and made 77 pips in the GBP/USD while I was at work. Everything functioned perfectly! My method performed exactly as it should, there wasn’t any guess-work. This was my biggest trading win in my life. Seriously I think that this is the most pips I’ve won – ever! In other words, I’ll bet that if I go back over the statements of my old, blown accounts and add up the number of pips won, it will equate to less than 77.

Good for me, but now on to the more interesting part. After the win, I felt less emotion than I do after eating a semi-tasty snack. It felt pretty good, I’d much rather have a win than a loss of course, but a lot less invigorating than I remember wins feeling in the past. When I was blowing up accounts left and right, I remember feeling my heart race tick-by-tick! Wins were better than a drug, losses were devastating. Yesterday, I was only mildly surprised to see that my buy was triggered since it was so late in the morning (NY session). I watched the price advance and decline in normal up-and-down fashion and really only checked in every hour or so to see how things were (I need to use a free forex data site from work, no access to MT4). The ups and downs came and went, and soon enough I knew that my TP was triggered. But I didn’t jump out of my seat and scream with elation. I actually didn’t even take a break to congratulate myself for my win.

To all the profitable traders: is this normal? I know everyone says one needs to conquer emotion, but I just didn’t have any to conquer yesterday! I used to be able to predict how my emotions were going to respond, but it seems really weird that the effort to remain calm and rational was so minimal. Anyone else notice that conquering emotions becomes less of a problem due to the LESSENING of emotions in trading?

Thanks for your thoughts.

-=DAVE=-
  • #2
  • Jul 11, 2007 10:19am Jul 11, 2007 10:19am
welcome Dave
as they say: you are now a professional trader

controlling emotion didn't make a professional trader
only eliminating emotion can..

no fear, no hope, no happiness, no feeling with success
Just Greed

and you're now on the way
Go on to the next cold profitable trade

  • #3
  • Jul 12, 2007 8:57am Jul 12, 2007 8:57am
  •  dado26
  • | Joined Mar 2007 | Status: Plan your trade and trade your plan | 180 Posts
Just as I read somewhere...we are not here to entertain ourselves we are
here to make money. So wheater you win or loose you have to be confident in what you do.....
But yes..we all know that dont we...
  • #4
  • Jul 12, 2007 9:00am Jul 12, 2007 9:00am
  •  dado26
  • | Joined Mar 2007 | Status: Plan your trade and trade your plan | 180 Posts
perfection trading is trading when you automaticly (without emotions) enter and exit blindly folowing your system. That can be boring..but I think thats the catch.....
  • #5
  • Jul 12, 2007 9:10am Jul 12, 2007 9:10am
Quoting megadave5000
Here’s a question that has been plaguing me for the last day or so.

To all the profitable traders: is this normal? I know everyone says one needs to conquer emotion, but I just didn’t have any to conquer yesterday! I used to be able to predict how my emotions were going to respond, but it seems really weird that the effort to remain calm and rational was so minimal. Anyone else notice that conquering emotions becomes less of a problem due to the LESSENING of emotions in trading?

Thanks for your thoughts.

-=DAVE=-
Welcome to the happy club
  • #6
  • Jul 12, 2007 9:31am Jul 12, 2007 9:31am
Dave, keep it going. (and this thread)

Remember me saying this maybe next year some time:

ALL of these "systems", threads, blah blah etc. are, after your 1st few months in Forex for the most part useless. In fact, they might even be harmful considering the addiction factor.

One day I envision a forum, not a simple section of one, dedicated solely to the emotions of trading.

None of this "Here's my system, I wanted to give back to the forums nonsense", "I've been demoing this for 173 years now and I'm ready ....", "Download these indicators....", "I've decided to start a journal, I've been trading for 3 years ....", "Long time observer, 1st time poster cliche silliness" yada yada yada!

Because you'll realize (hopefully from your 1st month of trading Forex) that putting a 25 ema on a 1hr chart or a 20sma on a daily and a trendline etc. with MAYBE 1 oscillator is all you ever needed to be successful from a technical standpoint and that the everything else boring stuff like MM, stop losses, and predefined profit points is wayyyy more important.

Entries are so simple in forex but it's all we ever want to look at as we dream of the millions coming our way. We know that longer Tf's are better but we continue to be attracted to 5M, 15M, 30M of which none are traded from a professional standpoint.

EMOTIONS EMOTIONS EMOTIONS! What is going through our heads as we enter out of greed, fear, etc.

Great Stuff -- looking forward to hearing from you in the future.
  • #7
  • Jul 16, 2007 9:03pm Jul 16, 2007 9:03pm
Dave, What you have said is good. It took me a little while before I could stop looking at the computer screen minute by minute....... Wins and losses are the way the game goes. It looks like you are accepting this. Great. You will really feel successful when you are only checking your trades when you schedual yourself to instead of at irregular times. The more you look at trading as "something that needs to be done" and the less energy you give go "feelings" the better your trading will become.

Also for monitoring your trades from work, try www.gotomypc.com. Works like a charm for me.

Good Luck!
  • #8
  • Jul 16, 2007 11:12pm Jul 16, 2007 11:12pm
Once you start getting on in the years of trading, it really finally hits you that just like anything else, when it's all said and done, trading is just another job.
Never underestimate the powers of the Force.
  • #9
  • Jul 17, 2007 12:37am Jul 17, 2007 12:37am
Risk only 5% of your accout size and you will be able to focus your mind.

$1,000 account risk only $50 per open trades. Trade size should equal 1 mini lot, 2 at the most. No reason to loose your mind then.
  • #10
  • Jul 17, 2007 6:32am Jul 17, 2007 6:32am
.

To all the profitable traders: is this normal?


Yes it is.....it really is just a job. Now will you feel the same way during a drawdown....or a sudden loss???? Than you are "there".

Best of Luck
Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance
  • #11
  • Jul 17, 2007 7:13am Jul 17, 2007 7:13am
Quoting FxJarhead
.

To all the profitable traders: is this normal?


Yes it is.....it really is just a job. Now will you feel the same way during a drawdown....or a sudden loss???? Than you are "there".

Best of Luck

you are right. Everyone feels a disappointmemt in a drawdown. It is normal in any job.
  • #12
  • Jul 17, 2007 8:32am Jul 17, 2007 8:32am
Hey everyone!

I have been out of town lately, so I apologize for not responding to all of your great comments in a timely fashion. I certainly appreciate the thoughts! It's funny, I spent nearly a week away from my computer and not once did I check out the markets (forex or otherwise), and I didn't mind at all.

I guess the comments about trading being another job are pretty true for me - I just like the trading job more. Feels like I'm working for me rather than somebody else.

Anyway, my orders are pending, we'll see how it goes. Thanks again!

-=DAVE=-
  • #13
  • Jul 17, 2007 9:05am Jul 17, 2007 9:05am
Quoting ktrade
Dave, keep it going. (and this thread)

Remember me saying this maybe next year some time:

ALL of these "systems", threads, blah blah etc. are, after your 1st few months in Forex for the most part useless. In fact, they might even be harmful considering the addiction factor.
Yep, I certainly fell into that trap. I wanted something mechanical that would always tell me when to get in and when to get out. And when I saw a new "system" with "indicators" posted I would get way too excited - because sooner or later (usually sooner) it would blow up to pieces. Then I'd jump to another "system" with different "indicators" until that one would blow up just the same. I used to think that the answer was in "filters".

Quoting ktrade

Because you'll realize (hopefully from your 1st month of trading Forex) that putting a 25 ema on a 1hr chart or a 20sma on a daily and a trendline etc. with MAYBE 1 oscillator is all you ever needed to be successful from a technical standpoint and that the everything else boring stuff like MM, stop losses, and predefined profit points is wayyyy more important.

Entries are so simple in forex but it's all we ever want to look at as we dream of the millions coming our way. We know that longer Tf's are better but we continue to be attracted to 5M, 15M, 30M of which none are traded from a professional standpoint.

EMOTIONS EMOTIONS EMOTIONS! What is going through our heads as we enter out of greed, fear, etc.

Great Stuff -- looking forward to hearing from you in the future.
I'm certainly looking forward to hearing more from you as well. I think you're right on the money with everything you posted. MM and stop placement keeps me sane and allows me to sleep at night. Entries are simple, and I think that exits are as well. It's just that I used to beat myself up over my exit more than my entry - I should have been more concerned with my MM!!

For instance, say that I exit and wind up leaving 150 pips on the table. I used to curse myself for being so stupid for leaving so much out there! Or I'd get upset when I'd watch 80 pips bleed off before exiting a trade - I'd be mad at myself for not getting out sooner. I realized then when you're in that mentality you just cannot win. There's no way to call a perfect top or bottom. No one knows with 100% certainty when a move will end. If somebody could do that, if they had the insight or special skill, sooner or later they'd wind up with every penny in every market on Earth. I'm definately not that smart, so why fight it? Why get mad for losing a trade or giving back pips? I think that getting upset should be reserved for breaking your trading rules or recklessly ignoring sound MM principles.

On the issue of timeframes, I don't even consider anything shorter than a 1-hr chart. If you know anything about randomness and the nature of uncertainty, looking at a 1-m chart is like staring into noise. There's a huge difference between the signal and the noise. On a 4-hr chart, I think I see more signal. On anything under 1-hr, I'm looking at junk.

Sure, it's fun to take a peek every now and again, but I can't envision struggling with the 5-min chart day in and day out to try and make a few dozen pips per week. That hardly seems worth it for me. Maybe it works for other people and I'm happy for them.

Here's a final thought. Nearly every other learned skill in life (bicycle riding, tieing a knot, cooking, dancing, selling, hang gliding, etc) depends upon doing something successfully and repeating the process over and over. Trading, I think, is different. When you fry an egg and it turns out well, you're reasonably certain that if you go through the same steps the next time you fry an egg that it will turn out equally as tasty. No so with trading - when you place a trade and it successfully turns out profitable, you'd be foolish to expect that by following the exact same steps as before will yield a similar result. You can define your entries and place your stops, but that's about it. The rest isn't up to you - the market is unpredictable!

For me, I think this was really hard to get ahold of. I have learned many things in my life, and dealing with the uncertainty has been the hardest. The same things that brought profits on the last trade have almost nothing to do with profits on the next trade. I just have to accept it and embrace it!

-=DAVE=-
  • #14
  • Jul 17, 2007 9:52am Jul 17, 2007 9:52am
Quoting PeterFM
Welcome to the happy club
Thanks Peter -

I have enjoyed your posts on FF for a while now. I appreciate this coming from you!

-=DAVE=-
  • #15
  • Jul 17, 2007 9:54am Jul 17, 2007 9:54am
Quoting Matthew
Dave, What you have said is good. It took me a little while before I could stop looking at the computer screen minute by minute....... Wins and losses are the way the game goes. It looks like you are accepting this. Great. You will really feel successful when you are only checking your trades when you schedual yourself to instead of at irregular times. The more you look at trading as "something that needs to be done" and the less energy you give go "feelings" the better your trading will become.

Also for monitoring your trades from work, try www.gotomypc.com. Works like a charm for me.

Good Luck!
Matt -

Thanks for the website, unfortunately my employer has blocked that site from access from a work pc. I suppose I will have to "sit on my hands" while at work. Probably a better option anyway, keeps me productive on the job!

-=DAVE=-
  • #16
  • Jul 17, 2007 10:01am Jul 17, 2007 10:01am
Quoting FxJarhead
.

To all the profitable traders: is this normal?


Yes it is.....it really is just a job. Now will you feel the same way during a drawdown....or a sudden loss???? Than you are "there".

Best of Luck
I'm in a losing position right now, I don't feel much different. We'll see how things turn out, there's a long way to go before my stop is hit and a lot of day left. We'll see if I'm "there". I am a work in progress so it's good to have a goal to shoot for.

-=DAVE=-
  • #17
  • Jul 17, 2007 10:02am Jul 17, 2007 10:02am
Quoting General belief
Trading without emotions equals success
What a load of non-sense.

Trading without emotion is NOT possible because it's YOUR money and YOUR excellence what's at stake. I get upset when a stoploss is triggered, and I get PRETTY pissed off when a profitable trade turns around on me. It's totally normal to have emotions when you trade. Go ask Michael Schumacher whether his heart is pounding at 200 beats per second right before the Monaco G.P. is about to begin, or whether Michael Jordan is nervous as fuck when he gotta risk a three-pointer 10 seconds to the ending bell to save the match. OF COURSE they're shitting their pants down and sweating blood at that precise moment, and they very well should!

The point is not to trade without emotion, that's stupid. You just need to control them enough so they dont cloud your thinking process, that's all. Does Michael Jordan chicken away at that last second? no he doesnt. Would he rather not have been involved in that situation? you freaking bet!
  • #18
  • Jul 17, 2007 1:28pm Jul 17, 2007 1:28pm
Quoting WTB

Trading without emotion is NOT possible because it's YOUR money and YOUR excellence what's at stake. I get upset when a stoploss is triggered, and I get PRETTY pissed off when a profitable trade turns around on me. It's totally normal to have emotions when you trade.

The point is not to trade without emotion, that's stupid. You just need to control them enough so they dont cloud your thinking process, that's all.
I agree - there will always be some emotion involved. Like I said in my first post, I still feel something - but not nearly as much as before.

I guess my whole point was that winning and losing and watching the markets move are becoming less and less emotional. I can equate this to how I used to feel in front of a crowd playing music (yep, I used to be in a garage band - two to be exact!). I remember the first time I was in front of a sizeable audience - I wished my guitar was as big as a car so I could hide behind it. I was nervous to say the least! After a few "shows", going up on stage was like second nature. It became more natural and the anxiety was almost totally gone. It was still a thrill, but without the maddening edge.

Somewhat like trading. Now that I know how to handle losses and the basics of MM I can sleep at night. Again, emotions still need to be controlled. However, I can say that I'm experiencing much less severe emotions than before.

-=DAVE=-
  • #19
  • Jul 17, 2007 2:36pm Jul 17, 2007 2:36pm
Quoting megadave5000
Thanks Peter -

I have enjoyed your posts on FF for a while now. I appreciate this coming from you!

-=DAVE=-
I know WTB said What a load of non-sense.

Trading without emotion is NOT possible because it's YOUR money and YOUR excellence what's at stake and I understand his qualification of that statement The point is not to trade without emotion, that's stupid. You just need to control them enough so they dont cloud your thinking process, that's all But when all is said and done the more emotionally neutral you become, the easier trading becomes. At least it did for me. The days when I'd be twitching as price got nearer my stoploss, and the times I moved it away are but a distant memory. The same applied as I moved into profit..gotta grab some..it can't go higher etc have been replaced with considered actions based on my logic (which won't be the same as anyone else's I know).
I just wanted to express my pleasure at seeing another trader reach the next plateau in his career. Most of us have ridden the roller-coaster of emotions whilst learning how to trade and it's nice to see more of us stepping onto stable ground.
  • #20
  • Jul 17, 2007 2:53pm Jul 17, 2007 2:53pm
Quoting PeterFM

actions based on my logic (which won't be the same as anyone else's I know).
I just wanted to express my pleasure at seeing another trader reach the next plateau in his career. Most of us have ridden the roller-coaster of emotions whilst learning how to trade and it's nice to see more of us stepping onto stable ground.
I would be more than curious to the workings of your logic, Peter.

Thank you for your congrats - I definitely think that I've "gone over a hill" so to speak. Next step: put the order in on the new Ferarri 460 Spyder (red, of course). Just kidding hehe!

-=DAVE=-
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