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Forex Profit... Im sorry but... (10% per month?)

  • #41
  • Jul 3, 2007 3:45pm Jul 3, 2007 3:45pm
Quoting randomlight
if someone makes 1000 pips a year then he is clearly a better trader than someone who makes 500 pips.
this is flat out wrong, no matter how you word it. no pro trader would ever agree with this statement. pips are as irrelevent as a "tick" in the futures market, a "cent" in the stock market, or a "point" on bonds. the word "pip" says nothing...are we talking one pip on one lot? what kind of lot, mini or full? which currency pair are we talking about? you see, there is not even a defined value for a "pip". its fairly meaningless. at the end of the day, its all about how much money you make, and that is determined by position size.
Relax and be happy.
  • #42
  • Jul 3, 2007 3:55pm Jul 3, 2007 3:55pm
randomlight i like your example but im not even considering 70% wins...

Just 50% wins with 1,5:1 or 2:1 RR does it.

I had this kind of return in my beginning but i obviously improved the winning rate, but believe me, just this was way above my goals at the start. Anyway, that 10 pip a day average is completly normal. 10 real pips every day, impossible, i must say. Thats why a second quote is there in my signature and its the perfect way to face trading.

The market moved a lot and we might think. Damn i missed a great change.

Wrong!! The market could have moved 100 or 200 pips and there was nothing that anyone could do to really be sure, besides trusting in luck. Great moving is not equal to oportunity. And thats why so many ppl fail. Thats the real key.

Merlin i've never seen this kind of statement before...

"hey it canīt be done because i've never seen it or its not public!"

common Merlin that's an argument?

and btw, i dont take into consideration company profits just because they are in the public sight. They too can suck, fail and go broke, but admiting that they are the best in the world, every body knows that many of them trade long term. Yen pairs are an example of money invested for years without withdrawal. Good money, but far away from short term trading potential.


As far as the Dunning-Kruger efect its funny to bring this up because when i started, oh you won't believe what kind of goals i had.

The fase that we all know, when we spent hours through the night trying to understand what the hell was a fib.. or what kind of candle pattern was that. I had a dream of making 20 or 30 pips in the entire month.

Yes you might laugh, and i tell you more. When i started to see some videos on youtube there was this one guy making 100 pips in one of his trades and i got stunned. Jeez. I told to my friends, they watched with me, and soon we were looking like kids saying. "this guy is a god" "what kind of magic was that?"

I just wished that one day i could be like him. I swear to my health that this is true. 50 pip per month Wow... before a i started trading i though 50 pips in the entire month would be my greatest challenge.

When the hundreds of pips started to apear, i soon realized that, i was way below rational thinking.

So. If i am here defending that 10 percent can be done. Its not about ego. I HAD the worst goals in the world, and my results are my guide now.

But even so, you might again not believe, but again i say.. Despite of my good results, i believe that i will not get them forever, so, i think that i will be able to get only half or 1 third of what i did before. So please tell me in what side am i, in that Dun - Krugger effect.

Ridiculous little goals. And lowering goals even after good results... What a crazy guy i am.

An even so, i can say 10% month possible. Only 10% year.... "get out of the charts"

I guess, the discussion reached the end if you guys want.

iandekoker thanks for the tip.
  • #43
  • Jul 3, 2007 3:56pm Jul 3, 2007 3:56pm
Quoting randomlight
mbqb11 ,I took this from one of the links you suggested.

" if someone makes 1000 pips a year then he is clearly a better trader than someone who makes 500 pips. I am not interested in lot size ."

As I said I took this from another post I did not write it but with all due respect we can play with wording all we want .
In the end I believe it`s all about how good one is at pulling pips out of the market.Attach what value you want to them ,but thats only money management. If you can`t bring in the pips the amount you put on your pips dosn`t matter much except to your failing bottom line.
No offence intended just my 2 cents.
Frankly I'd much rather have 500 pips of Eur/GBP in my pocket than 1000 pips if USD/HKD....
  • #44
  • Jul 3, 2007 4:11pm Jul 3, 2007 4:11pm
Pips, percentages....all bollocks.

It comes down to the money, wedge, beer vouchers

Pips don't pay the mortgage !
  • #45
  • Jul 3, 2007 4:29pm Jul 3, 2007 4:29pm
Quoting randomlight
mbqb11 ,I took this from one of the links you suggested.

" if someone makes 1000 pips a year then he is clearly a better trader than someone who makes 500 pips. I am not interested in lot size ."

As I said I took this from another post I did not write it but with all due respect we can play with wording all we want .
In the end I believe it`s all about how good one is at pulling pips out of the market.Attach what value you want to them ,but thats only money management. If you can`t bring in the pips the amount you put on your pips dosn`t matter much except to your failing bottom line.
No offence intended just my 2 cents.
Please re-read what merlin said. That is the answer.

Those links were to bring you to the discussions of this topic(that initial quote was by someone who had wrong thinking about pips as well-hence where the debated started, even tho it isn't really a debatable topic.) That is the problem with a traders forum it is just the blind leading the slightly less blind(most of the time), and sadly others will read that statement also and think it is true(maybe without even reading the rest of the thread, where the real answers are). The good thing is if u hang around long enough you decipher who's words you can trust, and the rest you better prove it out before committing it as a fact to your brain. All you need is to read Darkstars posts in both of those threads. Those are the correct answers, and as merlin said it again. End of story there really.

Take care,
Mike
  • #46
  • Jul 3, 2007 6:38pm Jul 3, 2007 6:38pm
Hey if I was able to lose 10% of my account in a month then its possible to gain 10% a month
  • #47
  • Jul 3, 2007 8:17pm Jul 3, 2007 8:17pm
This is getting silly, The initial post was about what realistic expectations could be, in terms of percentage.
It was probably me who got it side tracked into a debate about pips, lot size, the psychology of trading or whatever we are talking about now.
I think I`ll get back to the charts and try to hunt down some pips.
Sorry if I will never be convinced that that is not what it`s about and sorry if I got this thread headed off of it`s intended course.
I really appreciate all the sharing , and truly enjoy this forum.
  • #48
  • Jul 3, 2007 8:25pm Jul 3, 2007 8:25pm
I think the issue is "what you really want to achieve" , like everything else in life.

Most of people don't risk their job because it's little but secure money... some people start a business without knowledge or discipline and get bankrupty... little people start a busines and spends all the profits so the business never grows but for them it's ok... and very little people start a business, aquires the knowledge and discipline, reinvest, and get bigger goals.

Personally, I don't see the benefit of risk the money and invest so many time to earn 10% a year, where I live you can easily get that profit in a bank fund, with your money guaranteed and without having nights asleep, and waiting for the trade signals to come.

Ado
Ado Whether you believe you can do a thing or not, you are right.
  • #49
  • Jul 3, 2007 8:27pm Jul 3, 2007 8:27pm
merlin, i think u need to think outside of the box. 10% a month is nothing as that is currently being given in jamaica by overseaslocketinternational (olint) and lewfam investment clubs. you can google it, and google "david smith jamaica" too (without qoutes)

oh, here is lewfam's track record
http://lewfamclub.com/Performance.html

and yes, we saw a video of david making his trades and that video changed my signature in green below to what it currently is. David's motto, or mindset as we might call it, is just that : MM is key, he says he doesn't expect to win more than 50% of his trades and risks 1% per trade. He is profitable or break even at a 30% success rate.

So i'm with this guy that 10% is doable, heck david even has a high risk account that is giving 14% a month

Last time i checked He had 870M USD under management, He made the jamaican stock market and mutual funds go broke.

and for the record, David is the reason i started trading forex or even know such a thing exists.
100% of traders are losers. Just that some win more than they lose!
  • #50
  • Jul 3, 2007 8:27pm Jul 3, 2007 8:27pm
Quoting randomlight
This is getting silly, The initial post was about what realistic expectations could be, in terms of percentage.
It was probably me who got it side tracked into a debate about pips, lot size, the psychology of trading or whatever we are talking about now.
I think I`ll get back to the charts and try to hunt down some pips.
Sorry if I will never be convinced that that is not what it`s about and sorry if I got this thread headed off of it`s intended course.
I really appreciate all the sharing , and truly enjoy this forum.
I don't think it is silly, if someone can become more educated from a thread, even if the initial posts were not that similar. After all isn't the idea of this forum for people to learn and share knowledge so as to become long term profitable traders(assuming one wants to be that_

the only thing that is worrisome is this quote

Quoting randomlight
I will soon be trading full time though and will let anyone who is interested know if I do find 10 pips a day a real challenge.
yet, a simple concept isn't making sense to you.

And I do mean this to be in a nice way, as I wish you great success and would be more then happy to discuss via PM the concepts involved.

Either way take care ,
Mike
  • #51
  • Jul 3, 2007 8:28pm Jul 3, 2007 8:28pm
and with 10% a year, you are wasting your time trading forex.
c',mon 13 YEARS???? only 10% a month??? japanese housewives are doing at least 30% off carry trade alone.

I also agree that pips dont count. at the end of the day is Money management and ROI%
100% of traders are losers. Just that some win more than they lose!
  • #52
  • Jul 3, 2007 9:00pm Jul 3, 2007 9:00pm
Quoting Mr demark
oh, here is lewfam's track record
http://lewfamclub.com/Performance.html.
that is an amazing track record. (if its true..."These historical returns have not been audited and are disclosed for informational purposes only."). another year with a track record like this, they could easily attract a billion dollars. got any more examples?

btw, notice they are descretionary traders. this does not surprise me.
Relax and be happy.
  • #53
  • Edited 9:20pm Jul 3, 2007 9:05pm | Edited 9:20pm
Quoting mbqb11
Those links were to bring you to the discussions of this topic(that initial quote was by someone who had wrong thinking about pips)
I'm sorry but, who is that "someone"? I'm wrong because you want or because the others said so?

Another great argument... "He is wrong on this, because he was wrong on another thing"

Can a guy win more money making less pips than another trader? Yes. Hey he can be more inteligent.

But...

Can the guy who makes more pips win more money than the other, if he wants? Yes. That's another fact.

The question is.. Who is the better trader, the guy who use mathematics like suicidal progressions (Martingale) to overcome the lack of market knowledge? The guy that considers himself to be great just because he "plays" with more money, needing few to beat the rest..

Or...

The guy who makes less money because he don't invest the same, but has a crystal clear view of the market moves. Quality predictions with less money.

PS: Regarding that performance record. I have to say that is a good example but we have got to remember and understand. They are not machines, they are persons just like we can be. We can do worst... and better.
  • #54
  • Jul 3, 2007 9:05pm Jul 3, 2007 9:05pm
Quoting Mr demark
and with 10% a year, you are wasting your time trading forex.
c',mon 13 YEARS???? only 10% a month??? japanese housewives are doing at least 30% off carry trade alone.

I also agree that pips dont count. at the end of the day is Money management and ROI%
lmao 10% would not even pay my mortagage .. trade live when you find it i say tee hee hee
USD Est Non Mortuus
  • #55
  • Jul 3, 2007 9:11pm Jul 3, 2007 9:11pm
Quoting LuckyLurker
lmao 10% would not even pay my mortagage .. trade live when you find it i say tee hee hee
been live for a year, how about you?
100% of traders are losers. Just that some win more than they lose!
  • #56
  • Jul 3, 2007 9:13pm Jul 3, 2007 9:13pm
Quoting merlin
that is an amazing track record. (if its true..."These historical returns have not been audited and are disclosed for informational purposes only."). another year with a track record like this, they could easily attract a billion dollars. got any more examples?

btw, notice they are descretionary traders. this does not surprise me.
mind i note that the club has been closed to new members for about 3 months now so i doubt it is a pyramid. My friends still getting 10% a month with no new money
100% of traders are losers. Just that some win more than they lose!
  • #57
  • Jul 3, 2007 9:18pm Jul 3, 2007 9:18pm
Quoting Warper
I'm sorry but, who is that "someone"? I have to ask. I'm wrong because you want or because the others said so?

Another great argument... "He is wrong on this, because he was wrong on another thing"

Can a guy win more money making less pips than another trader? Yes. Hey he can be more inteligent.

But...

Can the guy who makes more pips win more money than the other, if he wants? Yes. That's another fact.

The question is.. Who is the better trader the guy who use mathematics like suicidal progressions (Martingale) to overcome the lack of market knowledge.

Or...

The guy who makes less money because he don't invest the same, but has a crystal clear view of the market moves. Quality predictions with less money.

PS: Regarding that performance record. I have to say that is a good example but we have got to remember and understand. They are not machines, they are persons just like we can be and, that can do worst... and better.
The guy was the one who started the thread. He is wrong period( I am just going to disregard your whole statement on "another great argument", because you apparently didn't read both threads all the way through-and if you did, best revisit them.). His argument was someone who makes 1000 pips a year is a better and more qualified trader that makes 500 pips a year. This is just absolute garbage. Maybe you are too new to trading to understand this

This pip topic is so simple to look at that it is almost scary that people can't grasp why pips don't matter.

Let me put it real real basic for you. Say I make 2 trades all year.

I trade 1% of my account per trade. My first trade has a stop that is 100 pts. I am stopped out for a full loss of 100 pts. That is 1% loss.

My second trade has a stop that is 20 pts. Remember I risk 1% per trade. I gain 40 pts. I make 2% of my account.

I now have a net of -60 pts and my account has increased by 1%. Does anyone still want to argue that pips are what counts?

Just because someone makes more pips a year then someone doesn't mean they can make more money then someone making less pips. That is not a fact. You have to look at the overall picture here.

I really hope this simple example makes sense.
  • #58
  • Jul 3, 2007 9:25pm Jul 3, 2007 9:25pm
Quoting Mr demark
been live for a year, how about you?
1.5 here but this is just 1 stream of income. But it is a stream ofincome.
USD Est Non Mortuus
  • #59
  • Jul 3, 2007 9:46pm Jul 3, 2007 9:46pm
mbqb11,sometimes it helps to think before you hit the send button.
For you to imply that you worry about me because I am going live but can`t grasp what you are saying is juvenile and insulting.
But then you are only 23 years old ,That in it`self is no issue but I want you to know that I have been investing in the stock market for longer than you have been alive. I also have been studying different fx systems for three years. I blew a 6000.00 account two years ago and I know very well what I am up against.
I am not someone who needs your concern son.I have boys your age who know it all.

This is in response to the poorly thought out reply below

"only thing that is worrisome is this quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by randomlight http://www.forexfactory.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
I will soon be trading full time though and will let anyone who is interested know if I do find 10 pips a day a real challenge.

yet, a simple concept isn't making sense to you."


Ps, it was nice of you to ...as you say "put it real real basic for poor warper too.
  • #60
  • Jul 3, 2007 9:49pm Jul 3, 2007 9:49pm
Quoting randomlight
mbqb11,sometimes it helps to think before you hit the send button.
For you to imply that you worry about me because I am going live but can`t grasp what you are saying is juvenile and insulting.
But then you are only 23 years old ,That in it`self is no issue but I want you to know that I have been investing in the stock market for longer than you have been alive. I also have been studying different fx systems for three years. I blew a 6000.00 account two years ago and I know very well what I am up against.
I am not someone who needs your concern son.I have boys your age who know it all.

This is in response to the poorly thought out reply below

"only thing that is worrisome is this quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by randomlight http://www.forexfactory.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
I will soon be trading full time though and will let anyone who is interested know if I do find 10 pips a day a real challenge.

yet, a simple concept isn't making sense to you."
lol yep im 23 and know it all cause thats exactly what I said. You are right I am 23, I have only been trading a year. So disregard what I said.

Still the fact remains that you don't grasp a concept why it isn't all about how many pips you make. Your age, your bank account, your years blowing accounts, trading stock market whatever you want to say doesn't change that. Maybe you should listen to your kids more.

much success to you and I do mean that
Mike
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