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People who don't know why it works..

  • #1
  • First Post: May 15, 2007 2:59am May 15, 2007 2:59am
I've just read I think my #700 and #701 as far as "Forex Trading Systems that will make you richer than Bill Gates and Donald Trump combined.."

(Asbestos suit on!!)

http://www.ingenious.org.uk/media/4....6_E06868_2.jpg

7 Sins of FF Newbies..


Sin #1) If you don't understand a system, and why it works, then you SHOULD NOT be trading it..

Sin #2) If you don't understand a system, and why it works, you SHOULD NOT be spreading it like gospel..

Sin #3) Holy Grail by DEFINITION is like XML, it is self-describing, self-proving, and self-healing.. If you have to ASK, then it's not the Holy Grail. Holy Grails have self-referential abilities..

Let me give you an example. I once paid a guy $1 + Self-addressed Stamped Envelope, to find out how to "Save 50% on my newspaper bills". He GUARANTEED that once I read the secret, I would know he was right..

THE SECRET: Share the newspaper with your neighbor..

See? Self-proving.. When you see the Holy Grail, that's what it will be like.. So until then, what you have is just a CHEAP BRONZE CUP FROM A GARAGE SALE.


Sin #4) "I've read everything and so none of this works.." I'm some 700 ebooks into this, and I haven't even begun to scratch the surface, and so when you think you've read a lot and read all there is to read and you are Vger, READ A LOT MORE and DO IT IN SILENCE.

Sin #5) "I've just found the best indicator, I think they call it MACD". Look, if there are books published about it, it's not a Holy Grail indicator. In case you are confused, reference Sin #3..

Sin #6) "This guru is the mother of all traders.." If he was, he will be more than happy to show you his P/L sheet. Everything else is TALK.

Sin #7) "I made 100 pips this week, this has GOT TO BE THE SECRET!!"
C O N S I S T E N C Y Come on boyz and girlz, you can say it with me. I can win at the roulette table on any given night too. The PROBLEM IS winning 365 nights in a row..
google:
  • #2
  • May 15, 2007 3:23am May 15, 2007 3:23am
I think there is no holy grail and you can't find it. All you can do is learn to trade.
  • #3
  • May 15, 2007 3:28am May 15, 2007 3:28am
Quoting twoblink

Sin #7) "I made 100 pips this week, this has GOT TO BE THE SECRET!!"
C O N S I S T E N C Y Come on boyz and girlz, you can say it with me. I can win at the roulette table on any given night too. The PROBLEM IS winning 365 nights in a row..
Market is closed on week end :-p

So in fact it's more like 260 nights
  • #4
  • May 15, 2007 3:29am May 15, 2007 3:29am
Amen
  • #5
  • May 15, 2007 3:44am May 15, 2007 3:44am
Great post TB.
  • #6
  • May 15, 2007 4:19am May 15, 2007 4:19am
The problem is they all own a calculator.

In the first 2 Months they only know where the Multiply key is.

How do you tell them, they dont know what they dont know.

After 3 Months they discover another button, the Minus Key!


Roy
Polishing my crystal ball
  • #7
  • May 15, 2007 4:21am May 15, 2007 4:21am
Quoting twoblink
Sin #7) "I made 100 pips this week, this has GOT TO BE THE SECRET!!"
C O N S I S T E N C Y Come on boyz and girlz, you can say it with me. I can win at the roulette table on any given night too. The PROBLEM IS winning 365 nights in a row..
This thread appears maybe once once a month or two "Made money with mouteki this week"
  • #8
  • May 15, 2007 6:38am May 15, 2007 6:38am
Quoting twoblink
Sin #1) If you don't understand a system, and why it works, then you SHOULD NOT be trading it..

Sin #2) If you don't understand a system, and why it works, you SHOULD NOT be spreading it like gospel..
I once took some trading classes from a futures "guru", and the whole system was based on "magic numbers" (ie: Fibonaccis, multiples of 180, etc.) One guy asked him why it works and the response was "I don't know... it just does." At that point I definitely knew that I wasted $1,500. Probably would've been better off blowing that amount in a mini lot FX account, practicing how to scalp.
  • #9
  • May 15, 2007 6:43am May 15, 2007 6:43am
Does anyone here remember what it was like to be a novice trader? Do you remember how focused you were on learning everything there was to know and discovering the perfect trading system? Think about it for a minute. It was exciting! Perhaps you thought you finally found a path to success! (whatever that means to you) Do you remember how you felt when you realized, “Hey, this trading game is not so simple as I thought. In fact, it’s rather difficult. I better figure it out before I lose all my money.”?

For those of you who have a job, do your responsibilities include training new employees? I bet you have a laugh when they make obvious rookie mistakes. Maybe you have a laugh or two at their expense as part of the initiation process… or maybe it angers you that they have not yet mastered competencies that you see as “basics”.

I read your “Seven Sins.” I agree with your first two points. (Don’t try to operate machinery if you don’t understand how it works and what it does. Seems simple.) When I began trading there were no forums for discussion. In fact, the web did not exist. (Mostly we traded shiny rocks and grunted a lot.) Novice traders today are asking essentially the same questions and making the same declarations you pointed out as they did twenty years ago. Most likely, it will be the same twenty years from now too. It’s part of the learning curve. You don’t have to participate or help them if you are not so inclined.
  • #10
  • May 15, 2007 6:55am May 15, 2007 6:55am
Deleted. Never mind.
-soso
  • #11
  • May 15, 2007 7:09am May 15, 2007 7:09am
AMEN!

Quoting twoblink
I've just read I think my #700 and #701 as far as "Forex Trading Systems that will make you richer than Bill Gates and Donald Trump combined.."

(Asbestos suit on!!)

http://www.ingenious.org.uk/media/4....6_E06868_2.jpg

7 Sins of FF Newbies..


Sin #1) If you don't understand a system, and why it works, then you SHOULD NOT be trading it..

Sin #2) If you don't understand a system, and why it works, you SHOULD NOT be spreading it like gospel..

Sin #3) Holy Grail by DEFINITION is like XML, it is self-describing, self-proving, and self-healing.. If you have to ASK, then it's not the Holy Grail. Holy Grails have self-referential abilities..

Let me give you an example. I once paid a guy $1 + Self-addressed Stamped Envelope, to find out how to "Save 50% on my newspaper bills". He GUARANTEED that once I read the secret, I would know he was right..

THE SECRET: Share the newspaper with your neighbor..

See? Self-proving.. When you see the Holy Grail, that's what it will be like.. So until then, what you have is just a CHEAP BRONZE CUP FROM A GARAGE SALE.


Sin #4) "I've read everything and so none of this works.." I'm some 700 ebooks into this, and I haven't even begun to scratch the surface, and so when you think you've read a lot and read all there is to read and you are Vger, READ A LOT MORE and DO IT IN SILENCE.

Sin #5) "I've just found the best indicator, I think they call it MACD". Look, if there are books published about it, it's not a Holy Grail indicator. In case you are confused, reference Sin #3..

Sin #6) "This guru is the mother of all traders.." If he was, he will be more than happy to show you his P/L sheet. Everything else is TALK.

Sin #7) "I made 100 pips this week, this has GOT TO BE THE SECRET!!"
C O N S I S T E N C Y Come on boyz and girlz, you can say it with me. I can win at the roulette table on any given night too. The PROBLEM IS winning 365 nights in a row..
  • #12
  • May 15, 2007 7:56am May 15, 2007 7:56am
Quoting TopTick07
Does anyone here remember what it was like to be a novice trader? Do you remember how focused you were on learning everything there was to know and discovering the perfect trading system? Think about it for a minute. It was exciting! Perhaps you thought you finally found a path to success! (whatever that means to you) Do you remember how you felt when you realized, “Hey, this trading game is not so simple as I thought. In fact, it’s rather difficult. I better figure it out before I lose all my money.”?

For those of you who have a job, do your responsibilities include training new employees? I bet you have a laugh when they make obvious rookie mistakes. Maybe you have a laugh or two at their expense as part of the initiation process… or maybe it angers you that they have not yet mastered competencies that you see as “basics”.

I read your “Seven Sins.” I agree with your first two points. (Don’t try to operate machinery if you don’t understand how it works and what it does. Seems simple.) When I began trading there were no forums for discussion. In fact, the web did not exist. (Mostly we traded shiny rocks and grunted a lot.) Novice traders today are asking essentially the same questions and making the same declarations you pointed out as they did twenty years ago. Most likely, it will be the same twenty years from now too. It’s part of the learning curve. You don’t have to participate or help them if you are not so inclined.
Of course I remember what it was like to be a newbie..

But this is what I also remember:

"Chapter One ~ Intro to Forex"..


but right before it...

"Chapter ZERO ~ HOW TO USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION."
google:
  • #13
  • May 15, 2007 11:15am May 15, 2007 11:15am
I would add

Sin#8- Money management can turn a losing system into a winner.

I think more wasted time and effort is spent on this one than any other trading myth.
  • #14
  • May 15, 2007 11:51am May 15, 2007 11:51am
Quoting billbss
I would add

Sin#8- Money management can turn a losing system into a winner.

I think more wasted time and effort is spent on this one than any other trading myth.
Because they never learned about expectancy..

What is expectancy? Easy to sum up:

Expectancy = how you turn a desert into a multi-billion dollar gambling industry..
google:
  • #15
  • May 15, 2007 12:05pm May 15, 2007 12:05pm
Quoting TopTick07
Does anyone here remember what it was like to be a novice trader? Do you remember how focused you were on learning everything there was to know and discovering the perfect trading system? Think about it for a minute. It was exciting! Perhaps you thought you finally found a path to success! (whatever that means to you) Do you remember how you felt when you realized, “Hey, this trading game is not so simple as I thought. In fact, it’s rather difficult. I better figure it out before I lose all my money.”?

For those of you who have a job, do your responsibilities include training new employees? I bet you have a laugh when they make obvious rookie mistakes. Maybe you have a laugh or two at their expense as part of the initiation process… or maybe it angers you that they have not yet mastered competencies that you see as “basics”.

I read your “Seven Sins.” I agree with your first two points. (Don’t try to operate machinery if you don’t understand how it works and what it does. Seems simple.) When I began trading there were no forums for discussion. In fact, the web did not exist. (Mostly we traded shiny rocks and grunted a lot.) Novice traders today are asking essentially the same questions and making the same declarations you pointed out as they did twenty years ago. Most likely, it will be the same twenty years from now too. It’s part of the learning curve. You don’t have to participate or help them if you are not so inclined.

TopTick:

You make excellent points . Unfortunately this attitude is also displayed
among successful traders who have written books. I recently
read a very famous/popular trader's book. After 80 pages of similiar
remarks, I was about to leave it. However, I convinced myself
to finish the 236 pages just to see if there was substance in it.
After all, he trades successfully for himself and others. It turned
out that he was well experienced and he did share some of
his trading methods. My only question is why the 80 pages of the
same old put down condecending garbage.

Unfortunately, this is not a lone case. There are many such.

The lesson, I believe, is that for those, like me, who are new traders,
we should try our best to progress by asking questions which
matter to us regardless of how they seem to the experienced.

The lesson for the experienced trader here is to impart knowledge
that will enhance all readers' understanding without being judgmental.

Your expressions, TopTick, are a good reminder that we all, at some
time, were new and needed help with something - a humbling acknowledgment worthy of never forgetting.

Thank you.
  • #16
  • May 15, 2007 12:30pm May 15, 2007 12:30pm
This is what I tell my students:

Before you ask, type it into google, chances are you'll find your answers..

If that simple rule was obeyed, there'd be 90% fewer posts on every board in the world..

I liken it to the camera forums like dpreview.com

"Which is better, 50mm f1.4 or f1.8?"

Search button people.. again, it's not the "same old put down condecending garbage", because despite it, the newbies still aren't listening..

Everybody is still learning all the time, but the amazing thing about the internet is its search capabilities.. People PM me and ask about equations all the time. "What's the equation for Hull's Moving Average"? If they typed "Equation hulls moving average" into google, they'd get their answer in 0.14 secs, instead of the 2 day turnaround..

Those who can't think enough to search for it first, SHOULD NOT BE TRADING FOREX.

In fact, that's the ORIGINAL SIN..

Sin #0) If you don't know how to use a search engine, then don't trade forex, and quite while you are behind...
google:
  • #17
  • May 15, 2007 12:43pm May 15, 2007 12:43pm
Quoting twoblink
"Which is better, 50mm f1.4 or f1.8?"
Jeez... I do very little work with cameras, and I know the answer to that: it depends on your depth of view... do you want things in the background blurry or crisp?

Yeah... I have very little tolerance for people who can't find general information on a topic using Google or Wikipedia. Especially those who expect you to find it, and never bother looking it up themselves.
  • #18
  • May 15, 2007 3:10pm May 15, 2007 3:10pm
innocent until proved guilty....
think to know what we do until somebody else told us that we do not...
sometimes we forced our self to beleive / have faith on something too...
and when there is something wrong, just blame the weatherman...
  • #19
  • May 15, 2007 5:27pm May 15, 2007 5:27pm
Hi TB,

While I agree with some of your points, esp the new addition of Sin #0, I do disagree with some of your points. While I still consider myself a newbie to a large extent, I have gained a lot of knowledge in trading psychology and the mistakes ppl have made. When I started out, I read and read and searched as much as I could find. I also asked a lot of questions. Long time ago I learned that the cheapes way to learn from mistakes is to learn from others mistakes.

But this goes to your first point, if you don't understand why something doesn't work, or is wrong, then how can you accept it to be wrong/unworkable. And the only way to understand why, is to ask. When i mean "ask", I mean ask yourself, then jump onto the forums, google etc, and read whatever you can find about it. The side things, tangents that one is bound to find while on his search on a topic, usually leads to even better knowledge. Just think of some of the greatest discoveries were a result of serendipity. This is the main reason, though a great proponent of the internet, I still wish libraries were more used than they are. The books you come across while searching for the book you are after, will give you greater knowledge than just being able to reach out for the EXACT book you are after.

Sorry for being a bit off topic, but I the memories of being totally green in the field of forex are so very fresh in my mind, I had to post!! IT is because of you Sin #1 that some of the most basic questions get asked. But agreed that a basic search would also answer, or give some direction to the ppl asking those questions.

Cheers,
K.
  • #20
  • May 15, 2007 9:04pm May 15, 2007 9:04pm
Quoting kermut
Hi TB,

While I agree with some of your points, esp the new addition of Sin #0, I do disagree with some of your points. While I still consider myself a newbie to a large extent, I have gained a lot of knowledge in trading psychology and the mistakes ppl have made. When I started out, I read and read and searched as much as I could find. I also asked a lot of questions. Long time ago I learned that the cheapes way to learn from mistakes is to learn from others mistakes.

But this goes to your first point, if you don't understand why something doesn't work, or is wrong, then how can you accept it to be wrong/unworkable. And the only way to understand why, is to ask. When i mean "ask", I mean ask yourself, then jump onto the forums, google etc, and read whatever you can find about it. The side things, tangents that one is bound to find while on his search on a topic, usually leads to even better knowledge. Just think of some of the greatest discoveries were a result of serendipity. This is the main reason, though a great proponent of the internet, I still wish libraries were more used than they are. The books you come across while searching for the book you are after, will give you greater knowledge than just being able to reach out for the EXACT book you are after.

Sorry for being a bit off topic, but I the memories of being totally green in the field of forex are so very fresh in my mind, I had to post!! IT is because of you Sin #1 that some of the most basic questions get asked. But agreed that a basic search would also answer, or give some direction to the ppl asking those questions.

Cheers,
K.
Kermut,

That's not what I mean at all.. Imagine a post that started:

"Hi I'm a newbie and looking for information on the MACD. I have searched and read all that I could find, but still am not satisfied with what I am getting as far as information."

If that was the opening to the post, most Vets would reply.

"Sure, what do you want to know??"

See, the first thing to ask is, "Have you done a search for it?" If not, then why should I spend my time doing your most basic of homework??

People PM me for book recommendations all the time, and I reply all the time because there's a good chance that I've read them.

Contrary to popular belief, most of us enjoy teaching the newbies. I know I do. Especially enthusiastic ones. The problem is, what HONESTLY are his/her chances of succeeding if they don't do the most basics of homeworks?? It's better to be scolded in the beginning when you have bad or stupid habits, instead of having them and not being able to correct them later.

Forex is:

50% Discipline
85% Money Management
50% Sex, Lies, and Video Tapes (and Holy Grails sold for $49.99 but only if you act fast!!)
15% Truthiness

Yes, I know that adds up to 200%, but that's reality, if you aren't giving it 200%, you aren't going to succeed in Forex.
google:
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