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In 2021, day trading in Germany will be dead

  • #381
  • Jul 27, 2021 2:13pm Jul 27, 2021 2:13pm
Quoting Sesamstrasse
{quote} By opening a GmbH (company) you are not longer a non professional for the authoroties. datafeed for futures and software licenses are higher-- additional annual financial statements by a tax consultant , lawyer, reporting.. .. is also on that bill.. I have additional costs to get the same thing around 10-15k p.A since Olaf manipulated our taxes. I decided for 2021 to stay private and take the punch. I´ll go the way through the council for my rights then.

Sorry to hear, that sounds like a nightmare. I guess if you are swing trading or holding longer term not as much of an issue. But I don't see how you could trade shorter term whilst paying taxes on your losses as well as the wins. I just hope for your sake some of the big exchanges/brokerages in Germany are lobbying to get it overturned somehow.
  • #382
  • Edited 5:54am Aug 13, 2021 5:19am | Edited 5:54am
Neue Petition, wäre jedenfalls in meinem Interesse.

https://futures.io/german-traders/57...06-2021-a.html



https://epetitionen.bundestag.de/con...on_124097.html
Risiko birgt immer auch die Chance.
  • #383
  • Aug 26, 2021 4:29pm Aug 26, 2021 4:29pm
Hello guys, new here.

I am trading and living in Germany.

This law is total nonsense.

Does anyone know how about when you get paid commission by investors ?

I am trading a small personnal account with Darwinex but got a few Ks in commissions (15% of the profit), for the moment it's just a few Ks though but it might quickly increase if I keep being successful.

Thanks in advance for any brightening.

Cheers,
Billy
  • #384
  • Edited 7:44pm Aug 26, 2021 4:32pm | Edited 7:44pm
Quoting Hutch
{quote} Is Germany going back in time? When Bismarck introduced social security the age required to qualify was 70 years old and was reduced to 65 years old only in 1916. 69 doesn't look that bad since, on average, we live a lot longer now than people did in 1916.
Es ist Ultrasozialismus.
  • #385
  • Edited 7:48pm Aug 26, 2021 4:44pm | Edited 7:48pm
Quoting Sesamstrasse
{quote} By opening a GmbH (company) you are not longer a non professional for the authoroties. datafeed for futures and software licenses are higher-- additional annual financial statements by a tax consultant , lawyer, reporting.. .. is also on that bill.. I have additional costs to get the same thing around 10-15k p.A since Olaf manipulated our taxes. I decided for 2021 to stay private and take the punch. I´ll go the way through the council for my rights then.
If your trading income is your highest income, you are obligated to open a company with all social fees, taxes, which will cost you 55% of the profit and also accountant, etc ... Which will leave you barely with 40% of your hard earned money.

Trading is hard and precarious enough. Only thing that will result of this law is successful traders leaving the country. Even Den Xiaoping from communist China in 1989 said that "the real socialism is to to let people get rich". We all know how well China did since, yet Germany is going backwards by going Ultrasosialism, aka more taxes and also opening the doors to all in need. Germany is only a too small decadent Oasis in a dry land that the world is.

My advice is to be resident of Andorra, 10% IT, great skiing.Or Hong Kong, 16.5% IT, Switzerland of Asia, great weather 9/12 month, and they have non double imposition agreement with Europe, need to live there 183 days a year.

Otherwise Costa Rica, 10% IT, Pura Vida !

I am living in Germany and am seriously considering my options which are to emigrate, I am not gonna get milked that hard after so many years of hard working.
Don't get me wrong, I am for socialism and taxes, but not for Ultrasosialism and "legal" state extorsion.

Cheers,
Billy
  • #386
  • Edited 7:22pm Aug 26, 2021 6:43pm | Edited 7:22pm
Quoting MCFly
Really bad news for all german forex traders: The german left wing government -yes unfortunately nearly all german parties are leftist nowadays- has passed a law which will change the way how wins and losses resulting from trading derivatives (which includes forex) are treated by taxation. At the moment it is common at the end of the year to offset wins and losses in order to pay a 25% tax on the wins or zero tax when the losses were larger than the wins. After the law will be introduced it will only be possible to offset max 10.000 EUR of losses....

No, you can offset 20000€. Also 25% taxes if you don't win much, otherwise it's up to 45 % if your earnings are not your principal income, then it's more like 50/60%.



And to be realistic, 20000€ offset for 80000€ profit is near to impossible, but If that is your case and it's not your principal income, you will have to pay 45% IT, otherwise you will have to open a company on which you will have roughly 40% left.



Cheers, Billy
  • #387
  • Aug 27, 2021 3:48am Aug 27, 2021 3:48am
Quoting Billyjoe88
{quote} Otherwise Costa Rica, 10% IT, Pura Vida !
Can you explain more about the Costa Rica scenario?
  • #388
  • Aug 27, 2021 11:14am Aug 27, 2021 11:14am
Quoting momo3HC
{quote} Can you explain more about the Costa Rica scenario?
Not much to explain, it's 10% income tax and 0% if your incomes are made outside Costa Rica like money invested in real estate or a company. I don't think there is a fiscal agreement with Europe though but with the US probably. You would need to live there at least 183 days a year.
  • #389
  • Edited 12:33pm Aug 27, 2021 12:18pm | Edited 12:33pm
The Netherlands can be interesting for some of you. Profits from trading are subject to Box 3 in most cases which is much more beneficial than Box 1 (income tax). https://expatax.nl/income-from-savin...stments-box-3/

You can calculate the tax in box 3 here: https://www.berekenhet.nl/sparen-en-...-vermogen.html
  • #390
  • Aug 27, 2021 12:46pm Aug 27, 2021 12:46pm
Quoting Dmh
The Netherlands can be interesting for some of you. Profits from trading are subject to Box 3 in most cases which is much more beneficial than Box 1 (income tax). https://expatax.nl/income-from-savin...stments-box-3/ You can calculate the tax in box 3 here: https://www.berekenhet.nl/sparen-en-...-vermogen.html
That's great thanks.

I actually live 30 kms from the Netherlands.

Gonna check this out.
  • #391
  • Oct 20, 2021 4:58am Oct 20, 2021 4:58am
Quoting Drolph
{quote} Zum 482847198. mal - und es funktioniert doch! Die Gründe habe ich mehrfach dargelegt. Wer sich natürlich jedem Schwachsinn beugen möchte, darf das selbstverständlich tun. Deine Verallgemeinerung ist aber trotzdem falsch. Eine Trading GmbH gründen halte ich dagegen für den komplett falschen Weg (und das sagt jemand, der bereits ein Unternehmen hat!).
This is an ENGLISH language forum....learn the language and stick to it Drolph you sell out!
  • #392
  • Oct 20, 2021 4:59am Oct 20, 2021 4:59am
Quoting Drolph
{quote} Wrong! It is your personal decision .. at maximum. People with common sense keep trading the way they are used to. The ones with little to no capital wont reach the 20k threshold anyway and the rest can afford a lawyer in the worst case. Most likely they won't even have to considering the possible reasons this nonsense will get deleted earlier which I have discussed in previos posts.
Typical comment from a sponsored sell out (DROPLH)
  • #393
  • Oct 28, 2021 9:03am Oct 28, 2021 9:03am
Hello fellow traders,
I have read this entire thread and i am new and confused. i also called some tax accountants and they have no clue, perhaps i was not clear. what is the current state of taxation? Here is my predicament: I am a resident (employed) in Germany and i currently have, as side hustle, a 20k funded account (MyForexFunds) from Canada from which i get 75-85% of my trading profits, i trade mainly gold and sometimes when the opportunity arises, some currency pairs and that's it. When and what should i declare ? are gold and currencies counted as Termingeschäften? i would really appreciate your help, because i am struggling with my german
  • #394
  • Nov 9, 2021 11:04am Nov 9, 2021 11:04am
Quoting DeyuSSJ3
Hello fellow traders, I have read this entire thread and i am new and confused. i also called some tax accountants and they have no clue, perhaps i was not clear. what is the current state of taxation? Here is my predicament: I am a resident (employed) in Germany and i currently have, as side hustle, a 20k funded account (MyForexFunds) from Canada from which i get 75-85% of my trading profits, i trade mainly gold and sometimes when the opportunity arises, some currency pairs and that's it. When and what should i declare ? are gold and currencies...
To give you a general idea: Yes, not many tax accountants really know. And things are stll in flux. But you better report your income (inkl trading ) in spring of the following year (your accountant can prolong till end of september). Gold and currencies are Termingeschäfte, if not held in cash on a bank account / physical gold.

You got to declare your trades in detail (trades are always single legs not combinations/pairs):
1. Opening of trade (reported in € ($/€ conversion on trade date value)
2. Closing of trade (reported as above)
3. Summation of winning trades (€ valuated)
4. Summation of losing trades
5. Deduct result of no 4 from result of no. 3 ---- but only up to 20k€ per year. If no. 4 is more than 20k the difference can be deducted from trading wins the following year ( if there are any wins left the following year once the losses of that year ((max 20k)) have been deducted .
Pay tax on result of no 5. You are screwed anyway.

Its as an analogy like selling a house you build at costs of 70k to a customer for a price of 100K. You must pay a hefty tax on 100k - 20k, tax on 80 k !! But you earned only 30k. The tax resulting will be higher than your profits.
  • #395
  • Nov 9, 2021 11:21am Nov 9, 2021 11:21am
" Its as an analogy like selling a house you build at costs of 70k to a customer for a price of 100K. You must pay a hefty tax on 100k - 20k, tax on 80 k !! But you earned only 30k. The tax resulting will be higher than your profits.[/quote]"

For the German government the logic is that your example would be an investment while trading is not, it's risky speculation.
  • #396
  • Nov 29, 2021 3:48pm Nov 29, 2021 3:48pm
Quoting Billyjoe88
{quote} Not much to explain, it's 10% income tax and 0% if your incomes are made outside Costa Rica like money invested in real estate or a company. I don't think there is a fiscal agreement with Europe though but with the US probably. You would need to live there at least 183 days a year.
Half an year in Costa Rica sounds nice.
  • #397
  • Nov 30, 2021 10:49am Nov 30, 2021 10:49am
Quoting DeyuSSJ3
Hello fellow traders, I have read this entire thread and i am new and confused. i also called some tax accountants and they have no clue, perhaps i was not clear. what is the current state of taxation? Here is my predicament: I am a resident (employed) in Germany and i currently have, as side hustle, a 20k funded account (MyForexFunds) from Canada from which i get 75-85% of my trading profits, i trade mainly gold and sometimes when the opportunity arises, some currency pairs and that's it. When and what should i declare ? are gold and currencies...
Money in funded account is not yours. The profit made is not your profit. Tax authorities should be interested only of your paid earnings from MFF.
  • #398
  • Edited 2:00pm Nov 30, 2021 1:40pm | Edited 2:00pm
Quoting momo3HC
{quote} Half an year in Costa Rica sounds nice.
You bet ;-)

Up to you how to schedule your 183 days total stay in Costa Rica, especially convenient if you are living in the USA I guess.

There is definitely harder and less pleasant ways to save money.

And this is not fiscal fraud nor money laundering, it's 100% legal.
  • #399
  • Edited 2:02pm Nov 30, 2021 1:50pm | Edited 2:02pm
Quoting SuperPip
{quote} Money in funded account is not yours. The profit made is not your profit. Tax authorities should be interested only of your paid earnings from MFF.
Yes, commissions earned are not the same as trading your own capital.

You are paid for a service and those are also not subject to VAT.

And if you live in Germany and are successful trading your own large capital you can open a company and the 20k rule will not apply anymore. Of course you will have taxes on your company's profit, all social taxes and then income taxes.... But still better as paying income taxes on your losses, which is quite a funny utopia lol, danke socialismus !

Bulgaria is also great, only 10% income taxes.
  • #400
  • Nov 30, 2021 5:32pm Nov 30, 2021 5:32pm
In 2021, day trading in Germany will be dead

so is it dead yet? only a month left of 21, maybe it will die in 22?
life is a reflection of what we allow ourselves to see
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