The brutal truth of day trading | Page 153 | Forex Factory

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The brutal truth of day trading

  • #3,041
  • Aug 11, 2021 5:16am Aug 11, 2021 5:16am
Quoting scherzi
{quote} How is it possible not a single drawdown? Are the trades open yet? I know the question is maybe too personal, so no issues if you wish not to answer it. Regards.
SL is 13% of account. Did not hapened jet. Max dd so far was ~8%. See here myfxbook

Some trades was opened for 2-3 weeks. 1 averaging level used if dip goes still deper. Closing all if SL reached.
  • #3,042
  • Aug 11, 2021 5:46am Aug 11, 2021 5:46am
Quoting PeterCaleb
{quote} A person needs to start with what they know, regardless of how simple or basic it is. Eg - =A person knows these markets exist in one form or another. =For FX, learning the basics of how two currencies can be matched up to move around the way they do. =Piece together the 'conventional wisdom' of the day - this is what people would usually respond with, when asked to explain or describe the overall situation of eg FX or stocks. =Accept that the markets are not 'fair' as if everyone is/should be playing by the same rules. This is partially...

Would be interesting for you to give us an exact rundown of how and what you trade Peter
  • #3,043
  • Aug 11, 2021 9:37am Aug 11, 2021 9:37am
Quoting gepards
{quote} SL is 13% of account. Did not hapened jet. Max dd so far was ~8%. See here myfxbook Some trades was opened for 2-3 weeks. 1 averaging level used if dip goes still deper. Closing all if SL reached.
I will check it, thanks.
  • #3,044
  • Aug 12, 2021 3:53am Aug 12, 2021 3:53am
Quoting BlackNapkins
{quote} Your laugh make me sad...
Why? Caleb is being called out.
  • #3,045
  • Aug 12, 2021 5:11am Aug 12, 2021 5:11am
Back to the topic, the brutal truth of day trading is:

1. More vulnerable against crashes, sudden price movements, news releases, wide spreads, during session openings & closings etc. compared to the mid & long term trading. Risk is higher and market is faster in small pip ranges.

2. It is risky for a day trader to have trades open during weekends, easter, new year's day etc. Gaps and wicks are dangerous.

3. Day traders make their brokers richer. Brokers love day traders, scalpers and HFTs. Because they have to close their positions often, so brokers take their comissions often.

Brutal truth of Trading in general:

1. It's possible to become consistently profitable, but it is very hard to reach that level. You gotta think outside the box, outside the crowd. You gotta understand the dynamics. You can't be profitable with a loser's strategy, don't even listen Forex Youtubers in the internet.

2. Knowing the right direction isn't enough. Let's say you really understand what to sell and what to buy (and that's a very big achievement) but it's not enough. It's just the half way. Your timing must be really good. If your timing is bad -even though you were right about the direction- you can be barely profitable.

3. It's a cliche but risk management matters. When you are opening a trade, don't think about how much you will earn from it, think about how much you can lose. You can't control the outcome but you can control how much you gonna lose. Focus on your drawdown when opening a trade. This way you can make sure your stops doesn't hurt you. Don't take the risks that you can't afford and you can't cope with. Being comfortable with your trades is important.

4. Forex is not like any other trades/crafts in life. You can master most of the trades/crafts/skills by giving it years. Forex is not kinda like that. Of course Trading requires some serious time & experience but giving trading 10 years doesn't mean you will get consistently profitable. Becoming a master in Forex is about your point of view, your mindset, your judgement and reasoning skills. You don't need to be a genius but you clearly need to a bit more intelligent than an average person.
You have to have an IQ higher than 90 to interact with this user.
  • #3,046
  • Aug 12, 2021 6:34am Aug 12, 2021 6:34am
The brutal truth of day trading according to Richard D. Wyckoff:

"Success in day trading usually results from years of painstaking effort and absolute concentration upon the subject. It requires the devotion of one's whole time and attention to - the tape.

He should have no other business or profession. "A man cannot serve two masters," and the tape is a tyrant. One cannot become a Tape Reader by giving the ticker absent treatment, nor by running into his broker's office after lunch, or seeing "how the market closed" from his evening newspaper."
  • #3,047
  • Aug 12, 2021 6:44am Aug 12, 2021 6:44am
Quoting Wags
{quote} Would be interesting for you to give us an exact rundown of how and what you trade Peter

Been there, done that. Doesn't work. Actually done that several times and no, doesn't work. People have too much interest in making love to their opinions and consumer driven minds.

People who won't change their minds cannot learn, only copy/imitate/emulate/plagiarize.

Very sad but true.
Real Trading is not gambling.
  • #3,048
  • Aug 12, 2021 6:52am Aug 12, 2021 6:52am
Quoting PeterCaleb
{quote} Been there, done that. Doesn't work. Actually done that several times and no, doesn't work. People have too much interest in making love to their opinions and consumer driven minds. People who won't change their minds cannot learn, only copy/imitate/emulate/plagiarize. Very sad but true.

I will take that as a no then
  • #3,049
  • Edited 7:25am Aug 12, 2021 7:12am | Edited 7:25am
Quoting Nordling00
Back to the topic, the brutal truth of day trading is: 1. More vulnerable against crashes, sudden price movements, news releases, wide spreads, during session openings & closings etc. compared to the mid & long term trading. Risk is higher and market is faster in small pip ranges. 2. It is risky for a day trader to have trades open during weekends, easter, new year's day etc. Gaps and wicks are dangerous. 3. Day traders make their brokers richer. Brokers love day traders, scalpers and HFTs. Because they have to close their positions often, so brokers...
Hi Nordling

1. More vulnerable against crashes, sudden price movements, news releases, wide spreads, during session openings & closings etc. compared to the mid & long term trading. Risk is higher and market is faster in small pip ranges.

Sudden price movements is where we make our money and its not with the trend, many of us trade against inefficiencies meaning any sudden movements without volume will collapse. Those trades are 90%+ winrates. On news, personally I don't trade news nor trade wide spread markets so risk is far less than yourself.

2. It is risky for a day trader to have trades open during weekends, easter, new year's day etc. Gaps and wicks are dangerous.

That is not day trading, we close every single trade by the end of the session. That risk is yours and I am surprised you don't understand this fact.

3. Day traders make their brokers richer. Brokers love day traders, scalpers and HFTs. Because they have to close their positions often, so brokers take their comissions often.

Again you just don't get it, we make our brokers poorer because on 90%+ of trades we win. We do have high trading costs but we have constant profits per trade.
Who cares what the F...K the brokers made, tonight on EURUSD that has only moved 15 Pips all day, I have increased my equity by 0.22%.
Why would I care if the broker as also made the same in charges, its a team effort.

I don't tell you how to be a profitable long term trader because you are probably quite good at that skill, but you have no ideal how day traders may get their profits. I think you would probably be very surprised to see how some of us use live market data sourced form other markets to make good profits in forex.
I trade against the trend of low volume data, with the trend on higher volume data - with data delta when it flips but against data delta on high volume.

Does this make sense to you as a long term price trader ?
I suggest it won't unless you study data liquidity inefficiencies without price and without time, think outside the circle but never trade inside it

Cheers
Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
  • #3,050
  • Aug 12, 2021 7:21am Aug 12, 2021 7:21am
Quoting PeterCaleb
{quote} Been there, done that. Doesn't work. Actually done that several times and no, doesn't work. People have too much interest in making love to their opinions and consumer driven minds. People who won't change their minds cannot learn, only copy/imitate/emulate/plagiarize. Very sad but true.
Lol He didn't say teach or explain in details. That's your saviour/guru complex talking about "change--learn" right there Peter.

Put up a chart of a trade you recently took and the reasoning behind it if you please. No ambiguity or vague expressions that would need individual interpretations.

You say you want to make a difference, you want to jolt all these forum nerds into the reality, you want to transform minds... etc, yet seem to be totally ignorant of the fact that people in general (at least majority) tend to learn faster and better with practical and visual representation of whatever you're trying to pass across.

If in fact you do actually have some wisdom or skill to share, has it for once occurred to you that maybe it's not that "these morons" are too dumb to understand/assimilate it, but rather you as the teacher are too engrossed in your love for lengthy repetitive scriptures to realize that words can only do so much to make an impact in a field/industry where Words without actual visual representation don't mean jack shit?

i mean, on a trading website, you even suggested above that you respond to the trolls with all these long articles because you are defending your character.....
at least that' what i understood...

You think this game of "i know more than you and you are too blind to see the truth" is how one defends character in these realms?

Pipe down Pete. Wake up to reality.

Shit, i'm starting to sound like you.
  • #3,051
  • Aug 12, 2021 7:30am Aug 12, 2021 7:30am
Quoting RickM
{quote} Hi Nordling 1. More vulnerable against crashes, sudden price movements, news releases, wide spreads, during session openings & closings etc. compared to the mid & long term trading. Risk is higher and market is faster in small pip ranges. Sudden price movements is where we make our money and its not with the trend, many of us trade against inefficiencies meaning any sudden movements without volume will collapse. Those trades are 90%+ winrates. On news, personally I don't trade news...
Hi Rick

1. Your win rate may be 90%+ but i am not talking about you. No need to take it personal. We all know 90%+ of the retails lose their capital trading forex. I am talking about the majority while people like you and me are the 10% minority.

2. I understand my risks since my trades are almost always open during holidays etc. but i deal with it using low leverage and big pip ranges. So i make sure it doesn't hurt me and it's not risky.

3. Again you and your friends may not be the ones that making your broker rich. But again you are part of a minority. The focus on my speech is the losing retails who are creating this vast majority.

All in all, i would never suggest a newbie to trade small pip ranges using high leverage, maybe when they get some experience but not at the start.
You have to have an IQ higher than 90 to interact with this user.
  • #3,052
  • Aug 12, 2021 8:11am Aug 12, 2021 8:11am
Alot of talk about win rates etc. No proof, no charts NADA!
  • #3,053
  • Aug 12, 2021 8:15am Aug 12, 2021 8:15am
Just so I'm not talking out of my _ _ _. Live trade, real money account. Trade explorer attached.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: Screen Shot 2021-08-12 at 7.13.46 AM.png Size: 294 KB


By the way my overall win rate is <50%.
  • #3,054
  • Aug 12, 2021 8:32am Aug 12, 2021 8:32am
Quoting Nordling00
{quote} Hi Rick 1. Your win rate may be 90%+ but i am not talking about you. No need to take it personal. We all know 90%+ of the retails lose their capital trading forex. I am talking about the majority while people like you and me are the 10% minority. 2. I understand my risks since my trades are almost always open during holidays etc. but i deal with it using low leverage and big pip ranges. So i make sure it doesn't hurt me and it's not risky. 3. Again you and your friends may not be the ones that making your broker rich. But again you are part...
Makes me wonder why newbie should not be trying everything what brings other people success.
They should try everything what is possible, "put own skin in a game". If they are smart enough and hardworking ,they will make better decisions for themselves. If they are stupid nothing is going to help them, they will fail, AND IT IS NORMAL.
People this days do not feel responsibility for their own action. They Should.
Protecting them against making mistakes is one of the worst scenarios in process of learning. Pain, frustration, anger and failures is normal for process of learning... and is necessary...
So, advice do this or do not do this are senseless in my opinion. Every newbie is different.
That’s saying 12 years old newbie.
  • #3,055
  • Aug 12, 2021 8:36am Aug 12, 2021 8:36am
Quoting BlackNapkins
{quote} Makes me wonder why newbie should not be trying everything what brings other people success. They should try everything what is possible, "put own skin in a game". If they are smart enough and hardworking ,they will make better decisions for themselves. If they are stupid nothing is going to help them, they will fail, AND IT IS NORMAL. People this days do not feel responsibility for their own action. They Should. Protecting them against making mistakes is one of the worst scenarios in process of learning. Pain, frustration, anger and failures...
When you start something, you should start from the level 1. We all start learning alphabet before trying to read world classics.
You have to have an IQ higher than 90 to interact with this user.
  • #3,056
  • Aug 12, 2021 9:06am Aug 12, 2021 9:06am
Quoting Nordling00
{quote} When you start something, you should start from the level 1. We all start learning alphabet before trying to read world classics.
Nordling... trading is not primary school, where there is a teacher, education program same for everyone (however everyone child is different).
Trading is hard endeavor and here comes people at least 18 yo… so people with certain level of education. At least THEY CAN READ. SO let them read…
Every intelligent person knows that he needs gain knowledge. If is not intelligent you cannot help him. No matter if he will follow RickM or … you .
Stay Well
  • #3,057
  • Aug 12, 2021 9:50am Aug 12, 2021 9:50am
Quoting Nordling00
{quote} When you start something, you should start from the level 1. We all start learning alphabet before trying to read world classics.
I am not sure why day trading cannot be level1 but swing trading can. Or if technical isn’t but fundamental is. I still don’t really see strong enough argument that show the brutal truth of day trading since thread OP started this thread...
BTW I started with day trading...

1. Skill set and levels. I would say no one skill is level 1 of all because they are different. For some skills especially technical analysis, it is equal when applied on all TFs essentially (try hide the TF and symbol and perform analysis on a random chart)

2. risk and leverage (and people who don’t manage their risk). Over-leverage is a common issue for both short and long term traders. With proper use of SL and lot calculation trading of any pip range should give similar drawdown.

3. trading cost. You are right about spread related to trade pip range. But here in HK trading forex is done with a CFD account and the overnight interest is not neglectable, one day of interest is less than but similar to spread of the same lot size in GU, for instance.

4. Just as what I asked the thread OP, research has shown that the proportion of day trader losing money in a year is actually 50-60% (net loss in account size). But OP cannot provide any statistics of swing trader to show if the number is higher or lower
Given that 2020 statistics, forex account holders are 52-65% losing, I would say the performance of swing trader is similar to day traders.

I am afraid many here make judgement of _____ (fill in your style) trading is the golden rule based on their experience. Frankly I am hoping someone can provide statistics of swing trading so we can come to a more informed judgement regarding the “brutal truth”

But I do agree with your opinion on trading in general except point 4.
Literally it does not mean you will master a skill or become successful simply because you put much time in it. Trading, sport, relationship.

anyway, trade well
  • #3,058
  • Aug 12, 2021 2:30pm Aug 12, 2021 2:30pm
Quoting Winston Reed
Alot of talk about win rates etc. No proof, no charts NADA!
i dont care about win rate.. see here FB stocks by the dips with risk/reward 1:7 (floating rr.. on average 1:7) might be even 15 loses in a row according to 8 years backtests and still profitable. Now see live trades in TE...

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: fb_dips.png Size: 95 KB

all my automated/manual trades audited/visible/transparent - see my TEs and myfxbook.
  • #3,059
  • Aug 12, 2021 2:40pm Aug 12, 2021 2:40pm
Quoting gepards
{quote} i dont care about win rate.. .
I think you should, win rate is as important as all other aspects of trading because trading is governed not by statistics (history) but by probability (i.e. future).
  • #3,060
  • Aug 12, 2021 2:41pm Aug 12, 2021 2:41pm
Quoting tommydoginti
Frankly I am hoping someone can provide statistics of swing trading so we can come to a more informed judgement regarding the “brutal truth”
Backtested 8 years FB swing... now with real money.. will see after 1 year... for now see how it goes in myfxbook. Again - all exposed.

Here swings - allways in trade. Why? Because I was thinking... when is the best to close BUY profits? when enough is enough? Answer - when no more good to stay in BUY. When that is? When SELL setup appears. As long there is BUY setup - keep BUY opened. When SELL setup forms - close BUY and open SELL. And vice versa.

And here you see how it goes:

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: fb_swing.png Size: 57 KB
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