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The brutal truth of day trading

  • #2,801
  • Aug 5, 2021 9:57am Aug 5, 2021 9:57am
Quoting RickM
{quote} Jason I will. But in short - only a fool things your broker will let you scalp on large trade sizes without slipping you unprofitably. They will delay execution, they will wider the spread You are a target if you become very profitable and those fantastic trading spreads will become a thing of the past. The liquidity provider will even attempt to bar you from getting access to the markets if your broker doesn’t keep your details private. Trade moderate size on multiple accounts with a few seperate brokers. Keep under the radar and be content...
So what you're saying is your volume easy to do strategy has a 90-99% win rate, a holy grail strategy, and your strategy problem is the zero spread EU will be widened to make you lose. Or the broker will ban your account. This is my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong.

Assume you scalp 50trades a day x 2pips a trade = 100pips
100pips x 10lots x $10/lot = $10000 profit a day
$10000 profit a day x 250 days a year = $2500000

Copy trade over 5 brokers, $2500000 x 5 = $12,500,000

Even with 1lot per trade, it gives $1250000 profit a year.

***I assume your volume strategy has not violated any rules.

So you're saying your broker will mess with the zero EU spread or block your 10lots per trade or ban your account for executing no loss trades.

Where have I gone wrong with the math and/or understanding?

I repeat I'm not mocking. I'm trying to understand the claim of 90-99% easy to do volume strategy.
Know what you trade
  • #2,802
  • Aug 5, 2021 10:14am Aug 5, 2021 10:14am
Quoting RickM
{quote} But in short - only a fool things your broker will let you scalp on large trade sizes without slipping you unprofitably. They will delay execution, they will wider the spread You are a target if you become very profitable and those fantastic trading spreads will become a thing of the past. The liquidity provider will even attempt to bar you from getting access to the markets if your broker doesn’t keep your details private. Trade moderate size on multiple accounts with a few seperate brokers. Keep under the radar and be content with a wage....
My experience is exactly the opposite. My brokers moved me to a server with faster execution and lower spreads. Honestly, I have never had a problem with my brokers. But I don't know anything about brokers in Australia.
  • #2,803
  • Aug 5, 2021 10:25am Aug 5, 2021 10:25am
Quoting RickM
{quote} Jason I will. But in short - only a fool things your broker will let you scalp on large trade sizes without slipping you unprofitably. They will delay execution, they will wider the spread You are a target if you become very profitable and those fantastic trading spreads will become a thing of the past. The liquidity provider will even attempt to bar you from getting access to the markets if your broker doesn’t keep your details private. Trade moderate size on multiple accounts with a few seperate brokers. Keep under the radar and be content...
One more question, Profitfarmer who scalps with you does not use your no loss volume strategy. Why is that so? And the many other traders who scalp in the discord group, do they make tens of thousands a month trading your volume strategy? They should be since yours is a easy to do strategy done within 4hours.

Again, not mocking. This has to be the case if my understanding and math I posted above is correct.
Know what you trade
  • #2,804
  • Aug 5, 2021 10:47am Aug 5, 2021 10:47am
Quoting RickM
{quote} Jason I will. But in short - only a fool things your broker will let you scalp on large trade sizes without slipping you unprofitably. They will delay execution, they will wider the spread You are a target if you become very profitable and those fantastic trading spreads will become a thing of the past. The liquidity provider will even attempt to bar you from getting access to the markets if your broker doesn’t keep your details private. Trade moderate size on multiple accounts with a few seperate brokers. Keep under the radar and be content...
Please correct my understanding and perhaps it may be a stupid question as i am not much aware about these things.

Yes i heard the same that with such precision the broker will keep a watch on you and do the dirty tricks and eventually BAN and will share your information to other brokers and all going to ban and cannot trade anymore.

i want to understand here, are we not buying and selling from the market like in stock exchanges, why broker will loose if a trader is winning, in cases where the broker is keeping the trades to itself in B book and not forwarding the trades to the marker then yes broker will be paying from pocket if trader hitting TPs but if he passes the trade to the market he wont loose.

Please guide me.
"Exchange of hands"
  • #2,805
  • Aug 5, 2021 10:49am Aug 5, 2021 10:49am
Quoting GEfx
{quote} My experience is exactly the opposite. My brokers moved me to a server with faster execution and lower spreads. Honestly, I have never had a problem with my brokers. But I don't know anything about brokers in Australia.
Do you have problems with your brokers when you withdraw 5figures? Threat of ban?
Know what you trade
  • #2,806
  • Aug 5, 2021 10:58am Aug 5, 2021 10:58am
Quoting bilal1947
{quote} Please correct my understanding and perhaps it may be a stupid question as i am not much aware about these things. Yes i heard the same that with such precision the broker will keep a watch on you and do the dirty tricks and eventually BAN and will share your information to other brokers and all going to ban and cannot trade anymore. i want to understand here, are we not buying and selling from the market like in stock exchanges, why broker will loose if a trader is winning, in cases where the broker is keeping the trades to itself in B...
ECN brokers not interested to manipulate.

An ECN broker doesn’t trade against its clients
An ECN broker is only the intermediary between your buying and selling orders, matching you up with different market participants.
Hence, an ECN broker doesn’t bet against you, which means that it never takes the other side of your trading positions.
This trading model ensures you that there is no conflict of interest, as an ECN broker gets a commission whether you make or lose money.
Using an ECN broker limits price manipulation, increases transparency and provides better trading conditions
As an ECN broker doesn’t “make the market” by creating its own quotes, it is harder for it to manipulate prices, simply because it uses prices from different liquidity providers.
With an ECN broker, you have access to real-live, current information, as well as more accurate prices history, hence why it is more difficult for this type of broker to manipulate prices.
Displaying prices from official sources transparently in the ECN broker’s trading platforms makes it easier for you to trade instantly, with tighter spreads than other types of brokers. Moreover, you usually get lower fees and commissions, as well as immediate confirmations.
Another benefit of accessing real quotes is that you avoid “re-quotes”, which can have a negative impact on your overall trading performance. This usually happens when your trading order is rejected because of the change in the price of the asset you want to invest in. Then, the broker offers you a “re-quote” of the given asset (which rarely works out in your favor).
  • #2,807
  • Aug 5, 2021 11:01am Aug 5, 2021 11:01am
Quoting BWilliam
{quote} Do you have problems with your brokers when you withdraw 5figures? Threat of ban?
I have an agreement with my brokers to make withdrawals once a month, usually 5 figure withdrawals, and they have never say a word. Forex.com and Oanda.
  • #2,808
  • Aug 5, 2021 11:12am Aug 5, 2021 11:12am
Quoting joyny
{quote} ECN brokers not interested to manipulate. An ECN broker doesn’t trade against its clients An ECN broker is only the intermediary between your buying and selling orders, matching you up with different market participants. Hence, an ECN broker doesn’t bet against you, which means that it never takes the other side of your trading positions. This trading model ensures you that there is no conflict of interest, as an ECN broker gets a commission whether you make or lose money. Using an ECN broker limits price manipulation, increases transparency...
Thanks for sharing.
"Exchange of hands"
  • #2,809
  • Aug 5, 2021 11:18am Aug 5, 2021 11:18am
Quoting GEfx
{quote} I have an agreement with my brokers to make withdrawals once a month, usually 5 figure withdrawals, and they have never say a word. Forex.com and Oanda.
For canadian forex broker, forex.com and friedberg direct powered by avatrade, great brokers
  • #2,810
  • Aug 5, 2021 11:27am Aug 5, 2021 11:27am
I trade only with EAs.. but tnx to this thread tried now some manual day trading on demo account, spent about 2 hours per day, 4 days in a row this week:

here results:

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: demo_4days.png Size: 88 KB

here some stats:

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: demo_stats.png Size: 35 KB
  • #2,811
  • Edited 12:44pm Aug 5, 2021 12:18pm | Edited 12:44pm
Quoting BWilliam
{quote} So what you're saying is your volume easy to do strategy has a 90-99% win rate, a holy grail strategy, and your strategy problem is the zero spread EU will be widened to make you lose. Or the broker will ban your account. This is my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong. Assume you scalp 50trades a day x 2pips a trade = 100pips 100pips x 10lots x $10/lot = $10000 profit a day $10000 profit a day x 250 days a year = $2500000 Copy trade over 5 brokers, $2500000 x 5 = $12,500,000 Even with 1lot per trade, it gives $1250000 profit a year. ***I...
Wrong calculations.
Imagine you have 10000$, then you must trade 0.1 lot size on EU.
Average gain (fees deducted) is 0.01 - 0.005% per trade.
50 * 0.005 = 0.25%. In fact average daily profit is from 0.25% to 0.75%.
So it is 25$ daily from 10k account or 250$ from 100k, or 500$ from 200k.

About 90% winrate. We are not using stop losses and build the position (or hedge) if necessary. That's why stops or basket trades closed in loss are rare and that' why it show that incredible winrate. For example today my winrate was 100%. There were no loss trades, but I has huge DD, >10 times more than fixed profit.

I fact winrate is not a problem. DD is a problem. I would prefer low DD with consistence profit. Let DD will be 0.1% daily, profit 0.25% and max DD per trade less than possible profit. And that is the hardest part.

p.s. Sorry for answering for RickM, but I'm trading with guys every day and our entries are mostly the same. And not only entries but even exits are the same.
Observer effect
  • #2,812
  • Aug 5, 2021 12:37pm Aug 5, 2021 12:37pm
Quoting ryuryu
{quote} Wrong calculations. Imagine you have 10000$, then you must trade 0.1 lot size on EU. Average gain (fees deducted) is 0.01 - 0.005%. 50 * 0.005 = 0.25%. In fact average daily profit is from 0.25% to 0.75%. So it is 25$ daily from 10k account or 250$ from 100k, or 500$ from 200k. About 90% winrate. We are not using stop losses and build the position (or hedge) if necessary. That's why stops or basket trades closed in loss are rare and that' why it show that incredible winrate. For example today my winrate was 100%. There were no loss trades,...
Thank you for the explanation, I understand you perfectly. I was looking for the details of RickM's volume strategy to understand correctly his claim. You have provided what I was looking for. Now I understand better what RickM's volume scalping strategy is all about. You have clarified everything.

Just one more question to complete the clarification, does Profitfarmer scalp the same way in terms of the money management aspect using basket trades and hedging?
Know what you trade
  • #2,813
  • Aug 5, 2021 12:48pm Aug 5, 2021 12:48pm
Why not to trade with 1k account with leverage 500 or even more for 25$ daily?
You can open 200 micro lots at the same time.
You can have 10 of 1k account, so 10*25=250$ daily profit. Or merge the accounts and trade with 0.1
  • #2,814
  • Aug 5, 2021 12:54pm Aug 5, 2021 12:54pm
Quoting BWilliam
{quote} Thank you for the explanation, I understand you perfectly. I was looking for the details of RickM's volume strategy to understand correctly his claim. You have provided what I was looking for. Now I understand better what RickM's volume scalping strategy is all about. You have clarified everything. Just one more question to complete the clarification, does Profitfarmer scalp the same way in terms of the money management aspect using basket trades and hedging?
A have no right to say what strategy he is using you better ask him (and I don't know in fact). As I understand we have a different approaches especially with averaging and hedging techniques. There are no "one scalping strategy". For example I trade with bot only, RickM manually. I'm using only delta, but RickM is using cumulative delta and footprints. I'm using stochastic for exit but as I see nobody else using it that way.

Quoting Ihlas
Why not to trade with 1k account with leverage 500 or even more for 25$ daily? You can open 200 micro lots at the same time. You can have 10 of 1k account, so 10*25=250$ daily profit. Or merge the accounts and trade with 0.1
Because 0.01% profit from trade is 0.01% even if you have 1000$ account or if you have 1000000000$ account. 0.01% is 0.01%. If 0.1 lot size from 10k account gain 0.01% profit then 0.01 lot size from 1k account (magic!) will gain the same 0.01%! And it will be not 25$ daily, but 2.5$.
Observer effect
  • #2,815
  • Aug 5, 2021 12:58pm Aug 5, 2021 12:58pm
Quoting ryuryu
{quote} A have no right to say what strategy he is using you better ask him (and I don't know in fact). As I understand we have a different approaches especially with averaging and hedging techniques. There are no "one scalping strategy". For example I trade with bot only, RickM manually. I'm using only delta, but RickM is using cumulative delta and footprints. I'm using stochastic but as I see nobody else using it. {quote} Because 0.01% profit from trade is 0.01% even if you have 1000$ account or if you have 1000000000$ account. 0.01% is 0.01%....
Thank you very much ryuryu for your clear answers.
Know what you trade
  • #2,816
  • Edited 1:30pm Aug 5, 2021 1:02pm | Edited 1:30pm
Quoting ryuryu
{quote} A have no right to say what strategy he is using you better ask him (and I don't know in fact). As I understand we have a different approaches especially with averaging and hedging techniques. There are no "one scalping strategy". For example I trade with bot only, RickM manually. I'm using only delta, but RickM is using cumulative delta and footprints. I'm using stochastic but as I see nobody else using it. {quote} Because 0.01% profit from trade is 0.01% even if you have 1000$ account or if you have 1000000000$ account. 0.01% is 0.01%....

Why to keep your money in the account that you don't use?
1) Assume I have 10k account and risking 500$ per trade. We think that we are risking less.
2) And I have 1k account and risking 500$ per trade. We think we are risking more.
So 1=2 or a=b
We risk the same amount of money.
Maybe the feeling of safety makes to keep the money
Just interesting.
Good luck
  • #2,817
  • Aug 5, 2021 1:40pm Aug 5, 2021 1:40pm
Quoting Ihlas
{quote} Why to keep your money in the account that you don't use? 1) Assume I have 10k account and risking 500$ per trade. We think that we are risking less. 2) And I have 1k account and risking 500$ per trade. We think we are risking more. So 1=2 or a=b We risk the same amount of money. Maybe the feeling of safety makes to keep the money Just interesting. Good luck
Because as I said max lot size to trade on 10k account is 0.1 (for EU, and approx 0.03 for XAU, 0.08 for GU and so on). Trading on 1000$ account will be possible only on EU, since there are no 0.008 and 0.003 lot sizes for xau and gu. There will be no room to hedge and you will ruin your account just a matter of time. In this case min allowed account size must be 3000$. But again, if you earn 0.01% from trade it is 0.01% and it doesn't matter what account size you have. It is meaningless to reduce account size. You must increase your account size and reduce lot size to reduce the risk and not vice versa!
Observer effect
  • #2,818
  • Aug 5, 2021 1:55pm Aug 5, 2021 1:55pm
Quoting ryuryu
{quote} Because as I said max lot size to trade on 10k account is 0.1 (for EU, and approx 0.03 for XAU, 0.08 for GU and so on). Trading on 1000$ account will be possible only on EU, since there are no 0.008 and 0.003 lot sizes for xau and gu. There will be no room to hedge and you will ruin your account just a matter of time. In this case min allowed account size must be 3000$. But again, if you earn 0.01% from trade it is 0.01% and it doesn't matter what account size you have. It is meaningless to reduce account size. You must increase your account...
I got your POV. You risk x percent no matter what the account size. Risking 500$ in 1k and 10k account sizes gives the same profit.
Thank you.
  • #2,819
  • Aug 5, 2021 2:15pm Aug 5, 2021 2:15pm
Quoting ryuryu
{quote} About 90% winrate. We are not using stop losses and build the position (or hedge) if necessary. That's why stops or basket trades closed in loss are rare and that' why it show that incredible winrate.
Then we can say that those 90% winrate is more of a fantasy in you head instead of it being a reality. You are just hidding your losses by hedging instead of closing the positions.
But if you say that you have a 90% winrate people will probably think that you are a great trader right?
Now if you say that you had a DD 10 times bigger than the profits that you had at the end of the day, well that is a very poor performance let me tell you, and it is very different of what i would expect from someone who comes here bragging about having a 90% winrate.
  • #2,820
  • Aug 5, 2021 2:27pm Aug 5, 2021 2:27pm
Quoting STrading
{quote} Then we can say that those 90% winrate is more of a fantasy in you head instead of it being a reality. You are just hidding your losses by hedging instead of closing the positions. But if you say that you have a 90% winrate people will probably think that you are a great trader right? Now if you say that you had a DD 10 times bigger than the profits that you had at the end of the day, well that is a very poor performance let me tell you, and it is very different of what i would expect from someone who comes here bragging about having a 90%...
Well, yes.
it is very important to keep the DD low.
this is especially important for scalping.
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