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The brutal truth of day trading

  • #321
  • Apr 22, 2021 3:46am Apr 22, 2021 3:46am
Quoting jmn5611
{quote} See? Trolls need attention. This one said he was leaving forever. He was gone two weeks. They post until someone engages. Everyone is stupid except for them. This is what they do. Let them post, eventually they will simply starve and go away.


jimmyboy

By your definition and thought process, almost everyone on this site fits in that box including you. Maybe it's time you re-educate yourself. I have my moments of stupidity just like anyone. But on the flipside, I don't care about people's pageantry. I did leave. Then I realized what a waste it would be not to put down somewhere some of the things I have learned that are NOT encased in little red diamonds next to my username. The funny things is - with you jimmyboy, in real life, I don't care who you are ... Warren Buffet or some other famous dick or just a person without the fame.

Some people have the stomach for helping while others are just spineless monkeys.

As to viptrading - educate yourself. I don't mean like so many people online. I mean properly. I don't care what your opinion is. If this offends you then you're not a trader. Why? You have no stomach for the truth. I'm not talking philosophically, I'm referring to the attitude that people have. A person's learning curve is marred by the attitude they protect.

So who really understands the nature and relationship between so many of the things that are mentioned in threads like this? Not jimmyboy .... and not the others who refuse to see one simple thing - what is real in the real world is also real in trading.

Honestly, I don't think many do see it.

Many traders I have met are just immature selfish prats and usually their attitude far exceeds their ability to trade in real life. While others are able to use their time more effectively.

So good trader or bad. Real is real.

Take jimmyboy there. The only descriptive word that comes to mind is prat. I don't care for political correctness etc. If you trade then you need to drill into what is real and true or you're just a speculator.

People need to wake up to themselves and learn. So you see, if you have no context for knowledge, then you're done. PERIOD. End of story. Forget trading.

I do not want or need anyone to respond to this so my aim is not to gain attention or affection. The world is full of wankers. But it needs people to learn. It's always the people who want to call you a "troll" who are the wankers who have no reference for pro-activity. People who have been molly-coddled are trying to get involved in something where shysters seem like your friend and someone who speaks plainly is something else entirely. For me, I'll pick the plain speaker any day over the 'friendly one' with their hand slithering up your back.



Peter
Real Trading is not gambling.
  • #322
  • Apr 22, 2021 5:51am Apr 22, 2021 5:51am
Its all about EGO. People can learn handle EGO, how it whispering or shouting.
Acting like a broken thermostat relay.

When you observe, while leaf falls, bird sings. You dont categorize things, things just happend and mind is clear, smile on face.
If following plan, there is no space for emotions, winning or loosing trade don't change state of your mind.
Most of the emotions are rising from EGO, noo need to carry emotions on shoulder, like you dont walk every day rowing boat on shoulders.

Human Emotions in modern society is EGO centric.

Is there a voice in forest without observer, or are you part of it.

Kurzweil has speaking about singularity long as I remember, but we are very far away from that moment.
Markets are random or chaotic state.Markets also can act for information schizophrenic way, sometimes similar news can make markets go up or down. Its challenging using AI, I am full of that sh..t, it sounds more that is todays marketing gimmic, even things can done much faster or better using brute force or monte carlo or similar methods. How would AI adapt situation where oil price was negative ? etc.... If someone try to told a Oil price will be negative, most of would suggest asylum. Or what negative interest rates has done for pricing options and is Black and Scholes method still better, even some articles in bloomberg tells its more accurate than AI has calculated by some players.

So far its speed of the "action" timing, like a footprints & T&S,a trader can act much faster compare to use of common indicators. Scalpers are allready in profits before others are entering orders and placing SL&TP and are then vulnarble for price discovery and matching algorithms from liquidity providers and other predators.

Not hunting buffalos, collecting road kills.

Like Rick says he is "happy", because statistically next trade will be winner.

I am also "happy" if my entry is not accurate, because the trade makes more profit. Not because of martingle, but because of my plan.

You are looser if cant lose, make loss trades profitable for current day. Not Art of War, Art of adapting mind.

And offcourse there are many ways to do it, i am talking one route.
  • #323
  • Apr 22, 2021 8:40am Apr 22, 2021 8:40am
Quoting kk100
Its all about EGO. People can learn handle EGO, how it whispering or shouting. Acting like a broken thermostat relay. When you observe, while leaf falls, bird sings. You dont categorize things, things just happend and mind is clear, smile on face. If following plan, there is no space for emotions, winning or loosing trade don't change state of your mind. Most of the emotions are rising from EGO, noo need to carry emotions on shoulder, like you dont walk every day rowing boat on shoulders. Human Emotions in modern society is EGO centric. Is there...
EGO, depression, low self esteem, all of these are negative emotions that can cause unnecessary losses in trading. Of course some losses have nothing to do with your emotion and is just simply statistics.

New traders must learn overtime to overcome their "EGO" as you put it to be successful. Not everyone is ego centric though, some people are the opposite and even that extreme can be bad e.g low self esteem. You need to have some confidence as well in order to trade properly, just not to the point of egotistical confidence, thinking you will win every trade.

Also just to clarify, I should say that removing all emotion is impossible, what I really meant is that you must learn to control your emotions when trading so that your emotional thinking does not get in the way of your decision making.
  • #324
  • Apr 22, 2021 9:59am Apr 22, 2021 9:59am
Quoting viptrading
{quote} EGO, depression, low self esteem, all of these are negative emotions that can cause unnecessary losses in trading. Of course some losses have nothing to do with your emotion and is just simply statistics. New traders must learn overtime to overcome their "EGO" as you put it to be successful. Not everyone is ego centric though, some people are the opposite and even that extreme can be bad e.g low self esteem. You need to have some confidence as well in order to trade properly, just not to the point of egotistical confidence, thinking you...
Cannot control the emotions and there is no decision without emotions.
on a postive roll...
  • #325
  • Apr 22, 2021 10:00am Apr 22, 2021 10:00am
Quoting Rmg
{quote} Cannot control the emotions and there is no decision without emotions.
Exactly.
  • #326
  • Apr 22, 2021 2:34pm Apr 22, 2021 2:34pm
Viptrading.

Somehow it makes me remind HitchHiker guide of galaxy and low self esteem and depressed robot.

Is day trading a good place for a person who has low self esteem or are opposite. It wont help and drag deeper.
We have lost teaching about how to live harmony long time ago and destroyed several times civilizations and going backwards, we are focus more science than skills of handle difficult situations and how to cope our minds and living together with nature.

The all this digtal nomad things pushing over, and people dreaming about doing things in paradise islands before they can do it, in home full time. Then they enter high hopes doing it most toughest markets where most have to trade without see a product and how its priced.

Quite common practice is starting small, and split tasks , smaller pieces, so its much more easier achieve. and not dream build taj majal first day.
Thats why i promote starting trading small profits and trading more often and get involved postive feedback loop.

This game will rip soccer pants and bring personal faults easily, and take wallets.
Trading has give me a lot, more than profits, it has help me understand about me, so its not waiste of money if loosing trading account.
Doing meditation about +30 yrs ,trading faults and succes has been important part of personal development, it puts me naked.
I am only responsible for my success and failures. Do I live in hopes or do I really try to understand and not pretend and going easy way.

Some point of life its good to know how to jump out from your skull and watch you couple meters away, but how you can tell, how to do it, if you have a problem of self esteem who dont know he or she has

Have to understand its unbiased guru/teacher which hit using cane.if answering stupid things, its brutal and response is rapid. Like a somewhere outside Kioto sitting on line near garden, and someone ask how many hairs pig has.

There is no corner where hide and cry. Have to step up or give up, and understand shake a deck of cards what are using, trying to do things "opposite" way.

This is brutal example of man without ego, you will let someone fuck your partner, and you think its oke if she/he wants to do it.
Its nothing taken from you, but can you handle it, because trading can feel something about it. There is no place for emotions.

I think Gfx pointed one of his post, more we know, we understand we dont know nothing.
So please take this writing as i understand what GFX wrote.

For me brutal learning example was in futures markets 2008. Couldnt feel the bottom of the lake or touch silver line of clouds, when tried touch each, they disapeared. Learning time when trade and not trade. Pitch slap, and next two years could jump up of my muddy river.

I just wrote this, because most of the threads are only talking about technics, put this indicator here and rules are here.

All respect who are journey to be, this tough road.
  • #327
  • Apr 22, 2021 4:51pm Apr 22, 2021 4:51pm
Quote
Is day trading a good place for a person who has low self esteem or are opposite. It wont help and drag deeper.
It depends, the most important thing is self-awareness. If you know you are someone who has low self esteem and tends to lack confidence being aware of that fact will help. It's the same with any mental block, you must be aware of it to fix it.

Quote
people dreaming about doing things in paradise islands before they can do it, in home full time. Then they enter high hopes
Yes. Being to hopeful can lead to some bad things when trading as well, it is good to have a plan but one must be realistic in their approach. Staying IN THE MOMENT is a good way to approach each trade imo.

Quote
Trading has give me a lot, more than profits, it has help me understand about me, so its not waiste of money if loosing trading account.
This is a good attitude to have, be grateful for the things you learn in this game as they are skills that can be transferred into other areas of business.

Quote
I just wrote this, because most of the threads are only talking about technics, put this indicator here and rules are here.
Exactly, this is why trading psychology is just as important to discuss as actual trading strategy. Look at all the top firms in the world and most of them have IN HOUSE psychologists to help traders on a daily basis, this is proof that humans struggle with trading due to emotions, even FTMO an online firm offers a psychologist for free once you pass the challenge and are trading their capital.

Great post.
  • #328
  • Apr 22, 2021 5:46pm Apr 22, 2021 5:46pm
While all of this is very riveting to read, let me give you four absolutes to make note of and remember that are present in everything that goes on in this world -

1. Context
2. Foresight
3. Implications
4. Life Awareness

Re: Personal Psychology and the advent of chasing down answers, without these ingredients present at all times, you will chase you tail for years.

Have you ever wondered WHY it usually takes years for someone to become a real trader? Why day trading in the context of opening and closing trades within the same day, is considered one way or another re: risk and capability?

I find in real life people are basically 'good people' but can be as dumb as nails when relating it to real life. Sure people "know stuff" but this is not Trivial Pursuit or Jeopardy..... It is Life in full.

What I also find is that people skirt around the real issues and talk a lot about things that they know some things about but clearly they have not gone far enough.

When I trade I am trading the future. Not the past and the present. Sometimes I day trade and other times I do other things. But my profitability comes not from 'trading particulars' but from the future.

If you want a future in trading, trade the future and stop going in and talking in circles. Day trading is just a context of something more. That's it, no secrets or mysterious hardship. But if you do not operate through those four absolutes then you are being neurotic. In my mental world either you understand real life or you 'play' with your head til it breaks or you are dead.

All this ego talk. Literally, I have found maybe 1% of 'modern people' understand it properly. Most just assume your ego is in control of what you're saying/doing IF you act in a way they 'don't like' etc. It's children playing at 'knowing something'. Your ego is PART of your survival makeup as a person. And it is to help guide through Life lessons NOT some superficial idealized pseudo "XYZ" belief. It's only when you match life lessons WITH the nature of everything that you learn. Not before. I don't know everything but I do know when people have not gone far enough to learn properly.... usually out of selfish convenience.

I don't mind who reads this. My basic premise with all of this is ---- Learn or don't learn. PERIOD. You're a fool if you don't and a child pretending to be an adult if you winge about it and make up distracting excuses for not doing something to learn properly.

Peter
Real Trading is not gambling.
  • #329
  • Edited 7:01pm Apr 22, 2021 6:50pm | Edited 7:01pm
Quoting PeterCaleb
While all of this is very riveting to read, let me give you four absolutes to make note of and remember that are present in everything that goes on in this world - 1. Context 2. Foresight 3. Implications 4. Life Awareness Re: Personal Psychology and the advent of chasing down answers, without these ingredients present at all times, you will chase you tail for years. Have you ever wondered WHY it usually takes years for someone to become a real trader? Why day trading in the context of opening and closing trades within the same day, is considered...
While you may be trading the future Peter, I just trade the moment.
A setup that has proven high probability of success is enough for me.

Little thinking - just check for any lions hiding behind any bushes

TRADE

Don’t out think a setup, it’s there or it’s not
Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
  • #330
  • Apr 22, 2021 9:35pm Apr 22, 2021 9:35pm
Quoting RickM
{quote} While you may be trading the future Peter, I just trade the moment. A setup that has proven high probability of success is enough for me. Little thinking - just check for any lions hiding behind any bushes TRADE Don’t out think a setup, it’s there or it’s not


I'm not talking about the old "I'm a trend trader and I will hold this position for 2 years and then cash out for a big payday." Not that type of trade the future idea. I too must see the setup with my foresight and knowledge, skill set and other tools. What I am talking about is 'other trends'. Societal trends, tech tends, social trends, intelligence trends, ignorance trends etc. NOT to capitalize on them specifically but to understand the world as a whole organism. For most people it seems they have a VERY limited comprehension of the world. If I say the word trader, many people think of someone day trading or trend trading. But for me, I place a trade "now" then I make a note of how much time I spent on that trade setup - from start to finish. This gives me an indication of Life reduction, seeing as trading is a 'wait and see' activity much of the time, even as a scalper. So compounding nature plus Life reduction gives me a figure that shows me other values that are not seen in $$. Regardless of how old a trader is, they WILL die at some point. "Time is money." Time also has a compounding effect. I know scalpers who are retired now, wealthy retirees, but they would love to trade still as they used to. But cannot because of their eyes and other health issues.

So trading is maybe 1-2% work and the rest is learning and understanding this world and its internal and external politics so you KEEP what you have earned. Too many are far too concerned about "making money" that clearly they've never tried to eat a $100 bill. Tastes disgusting in the mouth and you cannot digest it OR live off it. So at some point, one's priorities and educational path MUST change trajectory.

So just as it is with a professional football player etc, their mind makes plans FOR the future in the present by understanding what is going on.

If I say to you "bail-ins", what thoughts and understandings does that conjure up in your head? If someone is REALLY a trader they know it has a shelf life and they know that their ignorance of what is happening in the world, could cost them EVERYTHING they have spent so long collecting and building.

My experience has taught me that people are silly until they choose not to be. That people are one dimensional with their thinking until -

- They voluntarily choose to learn
OR
- Life presents an involuntary position to learn.

One is relaxed and knowledgeable and the other is forced and sometimes violent.

And now, we have the young people being extremely disrespectful, generally, to the older generations. Yet the older ones have MOST of the wisdom and knowledge. So at times, I feel like saying to people - sit down, be quiet and learn something worthwhile.

Mark Douglas said to me once (Yes I knew him, just a guy, so just breathe)- Professional development is just personal development with different goals but carries the same structural denomination. If you have 'personal baggage' when first coming into trading, then it will stay with you your whole career. This is why people flip for years between doing well then doing poorly. It's the personal baggage leeching out of the closet. So my suggestion to people would be this - stop taking everything for granted. Stop assuming you know what you need to know and assuming that what needs to be learned is always going to have a red ribbon tied around it in a bow.

I don't believe in just the now, I see the past and I value the future. So I use all to teach me and show me the possibilities.

Traders are too focused on what could happen that they forget to calculate what doesn't "usually" happen. The true black swans. The ones that are NOT seen on the chart.

It would be wise for people to become more wise.


Peter
Real Trading is not gambling.
  • #331
  • Apr 22, 2021 11:14pm Apr 22, 2021 11:14pm
Quoting PeterCaleb
{quote} I'm not talking about the old "I'm a trend trader and I will hold this position for 2 years and then cash out for a big payday." Not that type of trade the future idea. I too must see the setup with my foresight and knowledge, skill set and other tools. What I am talking about is 'other trends'. Societal trends, tech tends, social trends, intelligence trends, ignorance trends etc. NOT to capitalize on them specifically but to understand the world as a whole organism. For most people it seems they have a VERY limited comprehension of the...
Mate, you spend too much time analysing life & trading.

I’m in and out before you have finished your cup of tea with absolutely zero thought to news events generally.
Whats hard about jumping on a Sell when the Bids are showing high levels of imbalance with increasing volume levels.

Its that easy
Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
  • #332
  • Apr 22, 2021 11:18pm Apr 22, 2021 11:18pm
Barrage of texts offer nothing but show off I am superior then all of you. Here is my little understanding..
1 learn to read the charts.
2 know yourself.
Period.
on a postive roll...
  • #333
  • Apr 22, 2021 11:26pm Apr 22, 2021 11:26pm
Quoting RickM
{quote} Mate, you spend too much time analysing life & trading. I’m in and out before you have finished your cup of tea with absolutely zero thought to news events generally. Whats hard about jumping on a Sell when the Bids are showing high levels of imbalance with increasing volume levels. Its that easy


If you say so, but I learned a long time ago - shallow mind, shallow heart. I have a family to think of and friends I care about. So I pay attention to things. Besides, it's clear you have not yet experienced times when your 'toys' are not available to you. I'm not interested in what you call news events. I'm talking about real life. So you keep chasing the Bid and Ask and telling yourself there's not much liquidity around. Please go ask a bank trader's boss's boss - what is their departmental debt liquidity? I sense you will find out that liquidity is not what you think it to be.

I'll say again - foresight.

It wouldn't take much for your little world of trading to come crashing down RickM.

Just some considerations.


Peter
Real Trading is not gambling.
  • #334
  • Apr 23, 2021 1:05am Apr 23, 2021 1:05am
I think it depends on how each person treat trading. But it does not dictate the performance IMO.

Some see trading as a technical game, enter when a setup forms and exit when a signal comes or violates. Some factor in the world events to determine bias that lasts for certain period of time. Both can be executed and reap profit from the market hence these different approaches still exist nowadays.
Some may drill into the mechanism behind how market works, some try to catch the "trading psychology", some simply pick a tool/indi and trade. Execution of trades can be simply systematic with or without knowing the details, like driving a car does not require knowing how gearbox works.

With all due respect, the vibe here hints why people think the young disrespect the old. Advise is very useful, people with experience are respectable. Some young people may not respect people in general, but at the same time many old people disrespect others. Browse this FF forum and you will see "experienced traders' conveying messages like "my system is gold", "I am the best", "you must fail because you are not as experienced as I do / not following my system". How on earth can others respect these people truthfully?

Just because one succeeds or fails in something does not mean everyone else should walk the same path.
  • #335
  • Apr 23, 2021 1:07am Apr 23, 2021 1:07am
Quoting tommydoginti
I think it depends on how each person treat trading. But it does not dictate the performance IMO. Some see trading as a technical game, enter when a setup forms and exit when a signal comes or violates. Some factor in the world events to determine bias that lasts for certain period of time. Both can be executed and reap profit from the market hence these different approaches still exist nowadays. Some may drill into the mechanism behind how market works, some try to catch the "trading psychology", some simply pick a tool/indi and trade. Execution...

Can you recommend some books on this topic? Probably what helped you in trading
  • #336
  • Apr 23, 2021 2:15am Apr 23, 2021 2:15am
Learn or don't learn. Whichever way you go it's all relative.

Peter
Real Trading is not gambling.
  • #337
  • Apr 23, 2021 3:00am Apr 23, 2021 3:00am
Quoting PeterCaleb
Learn or don't learn. Whichever way you go it's all relative. Peter
Just to clarify, in case of any misunderstanding, that I admire traders who can perform long term and fundamental analysis which I don’t have confidence in doing.

The point I want to make is how deep one wants to drill into one activity does not really affect the actual performance and his/her traits and abilities. Take myself as example, I enjoy trading, driving and music as hobbies. I go really deep in music to learn the history and music theories behind songs I like, but as of driving and trading, I so far only would enjoy the process.

Of course I need to spend time to practice all 3 of them to be skilful and hopefully successful, just I cover many less aspects of trading than some traders who like to see the big picture. There are still things to learn in order to trade how I am trading now, the effort is essential.

You mentioned many other topics of life that can relate to trading, and maybe your path to trading has provided you a lot of opportunities for personal development. However I believe those things can be learnt from other paths. Simply think about the majority of people who never trade FX/Stocks in their life but still live well.
  • #338
  • Edited 3:29pm Apr 23, 2021 9:02am | Edited 3:29pm
Quoting PeterCaleb
{quote} Please go ask a bank trader's boss's boss - what is their departmental debt liquidity? I sense you will find out that liquidity is not what you think it to be.
As I understand it, RickM tracks liquidity in the forex market as he considers his trading opportunities. Here, you seem to suggest that a bank's debt liquidity plays a roll in the banks forex trading operations, and by extension, into the liquidity analysis that RickM considers each day. I'm trying to understand the link you've made here. Assuming that the bank is not currently under financial stress, how does debt liquidity impact the bank's forex operations? And unless all banks are under financial stress, how does debt liquidity considerations impact forex volume? I completely understand what might happen if there is systemic financial distress in the Tier 1 banks, and how at some point, they might stop forex operations (this is about as likely as the sun not rising tomorrow), but I'm pretty sure that RickM will see the liquidity disappear. Just curious what point you're making with this comment. As a forex trader, what is the marginal utility of expanding the idea of liquidity to include debt liquidity at the banks?
  • #339
  • Apr 23, 2021 9:59am Apr 23, 2021 9:59am
Someone once said that trading is not meant for the pessimist.
A lot of negativity in this thread from "certain members." Trying to seem superior/more knowledgeable than others a.k.a arrogance...

If what you do works then good for you, there are many different ways to trade. The one thing that is consistent with profitable traders is management of psychology and risk. Everything else is secondary IMO.
  • #340
  • Apr 23, 2021 10:15am Apr 23, 2021 10:15am
Since this is the Game I think we must use game rules to win. For example let's think how you can win in computer game? You must practice and get level ups. More points (time spent) you earn - more abilities you can adjust.
I remember days when it was Quake 2 online (OMG it was >20 years ago). I worked as night tech support, so we were playing online games all nights. I knew one guy who played using analog watches near the monitor. Because all that ammo, health and armor appears every 5 minutes. And he just picked everything on the map leaving other players let's say naked, without any defense and ammo. He was a top player. But he used custom indicator named analog watches. And he spent hundreds of hours playing this game. Another guy was playing Diablo 3, but he was using bots. That's how he have the highest level, the best clothes and weapons. His bots were grinding 24x7 365 days a year.
And now imagine a tired guy, ho has opened the trade after a hard day at work. It is possible that he can beat a guy who trade every day? Nope.
So I think that the brutal truth is that you have to spend a lot of time first, and then you will find the edge.
Observer effect
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