The brutal truth of day trading | Page 16 | Forex Factory

Options

Go to
Permalinks
Print Thread

Similar Threads

The truth about trading 164 replies

Truth about trading 9 replies

Truth about online trading...Is this us also? 5 replies

Pulos Bill - The Truth About Fibonacci Trading (Attached) 4 replies

The Bonehead Trader..please be brutal!! 47 replies

Attachments: The brutal truth of day trading
Exit Attachments

The brutal truth of day trading

  • #301
  • Apr 20, 2021 4:37am Apr 20, 2021 4:37am
Quoting KamiKami
I think the most difficult in day trading is to close trades that are almost making good money by the end of the day. Especially in Wednesday And of course it is difficult to reach the percentage necessary for month earning.
Yeah bro
Fully agree
  • #302
  • Apr 20, 2021 7:41am Apr 20, 2021 7:41am
It does not matter how many days / hours / minutes you must wait to close the trade, the important point is at what price and how many pips it will be taken.
I trade only with the definition of the final goals of my trades, and if (according to my analysis) this goal is achieved in a week, then I open a trade and wait, if I see that the goal can be achieved in 1 hour, I will gladly open such a trade too and get my profit after hour.
Point of view is a common opinion, passed through the prism of experience
  • #303
  • Apr 21, 2021 2:54pm Apr 21, 2021 2:54pm
not true, you cannot generalize this all because you didnt make money day trading
  • #304
  • Apr 21, 2021 4:00pm Apr 21, 2021 4:00pm
Inserted Video


This AI can trade profitably so why is it so hard for human beings to trade?
The answer is emotion.

Human beings must remove all emotion from trading in order to be consistent. This is obviously much easier said than done. Looking at the statistics the longer that a day trader trades in the market the higher his/her chance of failure becomes. Most people who trade Forex fail OVER TIME. Some may last 1 year, and some may last 1 week. This is because the margin of error is extremely low with trading, one bad decision can end your career. There is a very small window for success and a very large door for failure.

So, to become a successful forex trader you must be resilient, you must be able to remove all emotion and have an extremely strong psyche.

Also you might say, well why not just code my strategy into an EA? This will not work either as the market is constantly changing, so in theory you could make money with EA's if you constantly adapt them to market conditions, or if you use AI that is able to LEARN like a human.

It is possible to succeed long term with trading, but to do this you must be extremely strong willed and persistent.
  • #305
  • Apr 21, 2021 4:26pm Apr 21, 2021 4:26pm
Quoting viptrading
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzaB...nnel=TEDxTalks This AI can trade profitably so why is it so hard for human beings to trade? The answer is emotion. Human beings must remove all emotion from trading in order to be consistent. This is obviously much easier said than done. Looking at the statistics the longer that a day trader trades in the market the higher his/her chance of failure becomes. Most people who trade Forex fail OVER TIME. Some may last 1 year, and some may last 1 week. This is because the margin of error is...
Hi VIP

I have developed and run EA’s for quite a few years now, emotion has nothing to do with success in forex trading. Just because EA’s have no emotion has nothing to do with any Algo’s being successful.
Either your strategy has an edge or it doesn’t, either you can accept this one basic rule or you will suffer a long painful death (drawn down to margin call)

If the trade is wrong, get the hell out.

For me that is about 8 pips, by then I know somethings not right.
My strategy is very simple -

Sell only when the Bids are aggressively eliminating Asks, Buy when Asks are aggressively eliminating Bids.

Get out when it’s clear it’s flipped
Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
  • #306
  • Apr 21, 2021 4:36pm Apr 21, 2021 4:36pm
Quoting RickM
{quote} Hi VIP I have developed and run EA’s for quite a few years now, emotion has nothing to do with success in forex trading. Just because EA’s have no emotion has nothing to do with any Algo’s being successful. Either your strategy has an edge or it doesn’t, either you can accept this one basic rule or you will suffer a long painful death (drawn down to margin call) If the trade is wrong, get the hell out. For me that is about 8 pips, by then I know somethings not right. My strategy is very simple - Sell only when the Bids are aggressively eliminating...
I disagree with you that emotion has nothing to do with success in trading.

My point is that emotion causes traders to fail even if they have a winning strategy. Greed and fear are both emotions that cause people to lose money when trading...

I do agree that you need to have an edge but your edge means nothing if you don't trade properly without letting your emotions get the best of you...

As far as EA's. I mentioned that they have to constantly be tweaked to adapt to market conditions. If there was an EA that could make consistent profits in the market whoever controlled that EA would eventually be richer than everyone in the world combined.

AI may prove to work overtime but we are still a ways away from that imo. Unless someone else can prove to me otherwise but eventually AI will take over trading as it will be able to do something that we can't which is eliminate emotion. Not to mention solve problems faster than we can with a higher processing power.
  • #307
  • Edited 10:22pm Apr 21, 2021 9:58pm | Edited 10:22pm
Quoting viptrading
{quote} I disagree with you that emotion has nothing to do with success in trading. My point is that emotion causes traders to fail even if they have a winning strategy. Greed and fear are both emotions that cause people to lose money when trading... I do agree that you need to have an edge but your edge means nothing if you don't trade properly without letting your emotions get the best of you... As far as EA's. I mentioned that they have to constantly be tweaked to adapt to market conditions. If there was an EA that could make consistent profits...
If they have emotions, it means they have failed to correctly back test their strategy.

They need to get off their arse and backrest till they have bloodshot eyes.
They should just know a lost is part of their strategy - deal with it and stop blubbering.

I enjoy a loss because I know my next trade will statistically likely be a nice winner.

Embrace losing - accept we have to win unfortunately
Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
  • #308
  • Apr 21, 2021 10:04pm Apr 21, 2021 10:04pm
Quoting RickM
{quote} If they have emotions, it means they have failed to correctly back test their strategy. They need to get off their arse and backrest till they have bloodshot eyes. They should just know a lost is part of their strategy - deal with it and stop blubbering. I enjoy a lost because I know my next trade will statistically likely be a nice winner. Embrace losing - accept we have to win unfortunately
Precisely! And you may not know but what you just stated was you mastering your emotions. That is something that all successful trades/investors have in common.
Accepting a loss is something some people cannot "emotionally" handle, hence why they fail...

I would even go as far to argue that mastering your emotions is more important than your actual strategy itself. Improving your win loss rate and rr and technical things like that are all great but none of it matters if you don't have proper risk management which means using your head and not getting greedy.

I was reading this reddit thread just now posted in 2015 but I believe it can shed some light onto what separates a winner from a loser in this game.

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/commen..._professional/

EDIT: for those who do not want to read his entire post I will quote something interesting in his response to someone who asked him about his trading method.

"My method of picking stocks or buying/selling really is not different at all. What is different is that I have the emotional discipline to cut losses quickly and let my winners run. Most traders that fail, and I have seen many come and go even across the very few years I've been doing this, fail because they do not cut losses quickly and they are not good risk managers. I have always been frugal and very cautious with my money, and I am the same when I trade."
  • #309
  • Apr 21, 2021 10:38pm Apr 21, 2021 10:38pm
If someone, anyone, wants to learn how to trade properly, you have to get past opinions. If, for eg, there are 30 'parts' to a person's situation that determine a successful trading career from a failure, then why would someone only focus on say, 12 parts? Wouldn't this opinion then create the belief that they only 'need' those 12 parts to be successful? That is until they keep failing to generate successful outcomes consistently and then maybe, ask the question "why is this happening?". There is, a small ounce of truth in those films that depict machines or robots taking over or controlling everything and everyone, putting aside the theatrics. Most people are thinking too small. Any strategic placement within an electronic trader that is conceived by a person must by default, have biases as the strategy will need to make decisions. If you have ever seen an EA etc go silly with error signals then you would know that they do have their own type of emotions. Not like us but they do also burn out computers etc when left unattended and going error loop crazy.

Emotional "XYZ" come from many places. Yes maybe from insufficient backtesting, but that's just backtesting. Maybe from outside influences. What I have found is many people don't understand emotions. Trading is a skill set. EA's etc, even smart ones cannot trade if the power's down, or the net connection is down or experiencing serious stability issues. But I can pick up the phone and place a trade. Can an EA do this? If a person cannot learn that with or without AI EA's etc, the market still goes the way it goes. Maybe it'll look different or not.

Simple people debating some of these things is pretty silly. Control on any scale only comes from an overwhelming supply of ignorance or bad information. RickM is correct that either you do it or you don't. If you want the easy road go pay for trading signals or invest in an index.

The only people that will get wiped out by international "EA's" are the ones who cannot map what they can put their finger on. Trading successfully is a skill not an entitlement..... "Do this and this and I'll be rich."

Emotions are what makes you human, so why deny them or fight with them. Only silly people believe you can remove emotions from the skill set. If you're not relaxed then you've got problems. Yes, accept imperfection. Losses come from the nature of this. Edge or whatever word. It means "I see what I need to in the form I need to see it so I can enjoy using this skill set." If you're stressed or feeling under pressure then there is a disparity between you and your entitlement.

"I've done the work so I should get paid ! " = entitlement.

Trading is literally one of hundreds of thousands of activities you will perform in your lifetime. Why sweat over the minuscule when there are bigger issues to face?

"Most people are idiots until they are truthful enough to stop quoting "memes" etc and believing everything at face value". THIS is what separates a career trader from a wannabe. Winner and loser doesn't impress me at all. If someone is a career trader then they ARE the trading. Not an EA or indicator.... or meme or hot tip from a silly forum.

Hardest lesson for everyone to learn. REAL traders do it THEN talk about it later over a cold drink and great food. Get it ??


Peter
Real Trading is not gambling.
  • #310
  • Apr 21, 2021 10:55pm Apr 21, 2021 10:55pm
Quote
Trading is literally one of hundreds of thousands of activities you will perform in your lifetime. Why sweat over the minuscule when there are bigger issues to face?

Exactly, this is called controlling your emotions.

Good traders know how to do this, bad traders do not. Emotion is a part of human nature and that is part of the reason why humans are so bad at trading.

Eventually AI will take over almost every single career on the planet, it is just a probability, unless some regulations are in place. You can deny it all you want but you will see for yourself in the future. You are right that humans need to code the AI in order for it to trade but that will be the new game, whoever has the best technology wins, people will no longer use their own brain to trade, but rather AI instead.

Quote
If you have ever seen an EA etc go silly with error signals then you would know that they do have their own type of emotions.

This is a very interesting point. I wouldn't call it emotion but it is simply bad coding.

Quote
But I can pick up the phone and place a trade. Can an EA do this?

Everything is slowly becoming more automated. Most people do not pick up a phone to place a trade anymore, those days are gone...
AI will eventually be indistinguishable from humans, the only difference will be they will be faster and better at processing info/problem solving. This is why people like Elon Musk are developing things like neurolink for certain people to be able to "plug in" to the AI in order to reap the benefits.

I am not exactly sure if/when this will happen but it is a possibility, in any case my main point was that mastering emotions is a huge part of trading and once you pass that is the biggest hurdle to overcome, imo...
  • #311
  • Apr 21, 2021 11:42pm Apr 21, 2021 11:42pm
To me this is the part where we have to separate experienced Life livers vs modern day tech 'knowers'. To me a good trader is an idiot. A REAL trader however is a real life person. This "good trader" stuff is superfluous fluff. A real trader understands that there is more to Life than trading. AND understands real life. People are not set to default to move into a situation and observe the whole situation AS a whole situation. So to blame human nature is a misconception and is just plain ignorant. If people are stupid enough to "let" AI take over things, then they are screwed. To me, once the "AI" is doing more of the trading, I want to either be dead or doing something more important. But by then trading shouldn't even exist. You'll all have bigger problems to deal with than "I want to make money from trading". In your opinion it's bad coding but to limit your thinking to the literal is foolish.

Re: All this automated stuff, I think you need to experience a healthy recap of history. And you may want to become more well rounded in your understanding of many things. Yes I can pick up my phone and call my broker AND place my trades. Why? Guess what? He has a phone too. Hihihihi. And we know how to use them. We don't need some computer to tell us how. Elon Musk is just a guy. No ass kissing necessary.

People get all titillated by all this new technology BUT, YOU are not seeing all the contexts of its use. Nor are you in control of its use. So being a fan boy/girl of this stuff is ridiculous.

Trading is the same.

DO or do not. There is no "try and then expect to get paid WITH that huge entitlement mentality."

Sorry if this is harsh but I am tired of opinions being gold coated and handed out as if they're something else and better.


Peter
Real Trading is not gambling.
  • #312
  • Edited Apr 22, 2021 12:12am Apr 21, 2021 11:51pm | Edited Apr 22, 2021 12:12am
Quoting PeterCaleb
To me this is the part where we have to separate experienced Life livers vs modern day tech 'knowers'. To me a good trader is an idiot. A REAL trader however is a real life person. This "good trader" stuff is superfluous fluff. A real trader understands that there is more to Life than trading. AND understands real life. People are not set to default to move into a situation and observe the whole situation AS a whole situation. So to blame human nature is a misconception and is just plain ignorant. If people are stupid enough to "let" AI take over...
You are making alot of assumptions/projecting a lot of insecurity about technology in your posts.

Your way of communicating is not very beneficial to the overall discussion. You keep talking about a "real trader" or "real world trader" but yet you say that someone being a "good" trader is "superfluous fluff"...

The point here is that human trading requires management of emotion and psychology. And a good trader understands how to manage their emotion wether they know it or not I am not saying not did I ever state that it's the ONLY thing required to be successful though...

You attacking AI and it's ability to work on the financial world of trading is not going to make it go away...

I brought up Elon Musk for a reason I am not a "fan boy" as you suggested.

Your attempts at subtly insulting me to try and make your point is actually doing the opposite. I guess I must have struck a nerve with you somehow from my previous posts.
  • #313
  • Apr 22, 2021 12:15am Apr 22, 2021 12:15am
Quoting viptrading
{quote} You are making alot of assumptions/projecting a lot of insecurity about technology in your posts. Your way of communicating is not very beneficial to the overall discussion. You keep talking about a "real trader" or "real world trader" but yet you say that someone being a "good" trader is "superfluous fluff"... The point here is that human trading requires management of emotion and psychology. And a good trader understands how to manage their emotion wether they know it or not I am not saying not did I ever state that it's the ONLY thing...
Don't feed the trolls.
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #314
  • Apr 22, 2021 12:31am Apr 22, 2021 12:31am
No trolling, just plain simple observations. Technology on its own is no problem. No attacking. Nothing but someone who has lived long enough with eyes open to understand certain things. Make up whatever you want to explain what I'm doing or saying. Day trading is real. Real people day trade and position trade. "Good traders" is pipe dream language for forums and the silly people who believe they're real. There's a lot obviously you have not experienced, observed or understand, so who cares what the opinion is..... yours or mine. I have found the more opinionated a person is, the worse they are as a trader. Period. Trading is not about opinion vs fact. Nor technology.

I open trades and close trades within open to close. Am I a day trader? I can use left and right eyes to see up or down. Am I an opinion or day trader? On and on it goes.

If you don't know how to use your brain in proper ways then all you have is opinion. Not everyone relies so heavily on opinions.

Peter
Real Trading is not gambling.
  • #315
  • Apr 22, 2021 12:37am Apr 22, 2021 12:37am
Quoting PeterCaleb
No trolling, just plain simple observations. Technology on its own is no problem. No attacking. Nothing but someone who has lived long enough with eyes open to understand certain things. Make up whatever you want to explain what I'm doing or saying. Day trading is real. Real people day trade and position trade. "Good traders" is pipe dream language for forums and the silly people who believe they're real. There's a lot obviously you have not experienced, observed or understand, so who cares what the opinion is..... yours or mine. I have found the...
What are you even on about anymore...
No one was arguing about opinions I was stating facts. You are just arguing for no reason, which is why people think you are trolling.

Quote
"Good traders" is pipe dream language for forums and the silly people who believe they're real.
lmao what? Please elaborate I find this highly amusing.

This post had absolutely 0 value to anyone.
  • #316
  • Apr 22, 2021 12:53am Apr 22, 2021 12:53am
Who cares if you don't understand. If you cannot understand the many things within written form then I pity you. Facts are not the basic truth of something, they're just facts. The thread starter brought up the topic re: day trading.

Language is subjective and tentative to the resourcefulness of the reader. If your brain is mush then you can only think in a literal way. Therefore scientific and mathematical stuff seems the "right way" to go because you need the right answer. Day trading is the same. On some points you mentioned I concur, but opinions are not facts and facts are not the basic truth of things. And I don't use the word truth just because it's in the title of this thread nor because I think or know I'm right.

Everything I mentioned has value to someone who can still use their brain beyond superficial conversations.

So I am sorry if you have a problem with something I said. I wasn't trying to mask my contempt for the lack of depth. I was merely exhibiting my own displeasure for certain things. Next time I'll use less words and say it more clearly. OK. For all you 'texters' out there hehehehe.

Peter
Real Trading is not gambling.
  • #317
  • Apr 22, 2021 12:54am Apr 22, 2021 12:54am
Now, of all the 'traders' here, who wants a tissue and who wants a stick of gum??


Peter
Real Trading is not gambling.
  • #318
  • Apr 22, 2021 1:02am Apr 22, 2021 1:02am
Quoting PeterCaleb
Who cares if you don't understand. If you cannot understand the many things within written form then I pity you. Facts are not the basic truth of something, they're just facts. The thread starter brought up the topic re: day trading. Language is subjective and tentative to the resourcefulness of the reader. If your brain is mush then you can only think in a literal way. Therefore scientific and mathematical stuff seems the "right way" to go because you need the right answer. Day trading is the same. On some points you mentioned I concur, but opinions...
Whatever floats your boat.
If someone can find substance out of your incoherent rambling then more power to them...

I still don't understand what you are arguing about though. If you don't like AI and Elon Musk you could have just said that. Everyone has a different style of trading.
But, the fact remains that everyone uses emotion (if you are human) and in trading so its best to control it if you want to succeed.

I do find it quite ironic that the person arguing against "emotion being a factor in trading" is exhibiting the most emotion in their posts.
  • #319
  • Apr 22, 2021 1:30am Apr 22, 2021 1:30am
Quoting viptrading
{quote} Whatever floats your boat. If someone can find substance out of your incoherent rambling then more power to them... I still don't understand what you are arguing about though. If you don't like AI and Elon Musk you could have just said that. Everyone has a different style of trading. But, the fact remains that everyone uses emotion (if you are human) and in trading so its best to control it if you want to succeed. I do find it quite ironic that the person arguing against "emotion being a factor in trading" is exhibiting the most emotion...
See? Trolls need attention. This one said he was leaving forever. He was gone two weeks. They post until someone engages. Everyone is stupid except for them. This is what they do. Let them post, eventually they will simply starve and go away.
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #320
  • Apr 22, 2021 1:43am Apr 22, 2021 1:43am
Quoting jmn5611
{quote} See? Trolls need attention. This one said he was leaving forever. He was gone two weeks. They post until someone engages. Everyone is stupid except for them. This is what they do. Let them post, eventually they will simply starve and go away.
I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. This forum could actually be such a good source of information for new traders but sadly it's filled with a lot of shit posts.
0 traders viewing now