My way to highway

hi Shaun,
you are welcome!

Hey man I have noticed you are a commercial member now but I cannot see the pricing structure to become one of your students??

hi Ross88,
anyone interested, we can talk and get a feel if want to go ahead with mentoring.
of course no charge for that part.

this thread i am keeping as a journal really. not a biz thread.

happy weekend!
Zoltan

Ross read it; edited this post to shorten.

for fun, here is the morning gold chart, while i was sleeping...
Axi vs ICM.
there was a sudden move...1.35am GMT
it all started ( marked it as start LOL) with the price between the brokers being 1 cent apart.
but as this next 2 minute unfolded, is a totally different picture...
for comparison, at 1:59am GMT, the low was only 8 cent apart betweent these 2 brokers, and the current price is 3 cents apart; that is normal range of difference.
the rest of the story is on the chart



a retail broker phenomena. moves may get amplified, be that bcos of different liquidity providers (LP), or the need to amplify the underlying move just enough to wipe the B-book orders sufficiently out, who to say.
but gold is not something where in reality you find these days 4$ difference in a low, or 6$ difference as the same move rebound.
not when the price was identical at the start of the minute, and very similar in the next low 24 min later too...

the similar phenomena (although usually a lot less extent) i can often observe during the midnight rollover.
with only few ways to deal with it, while sleeping: luck, prayer, or no position.

the reason i have opted scalping.
i may get caugth something when i am at my PC, trading.
but i have the chance to react to it, for good or bad.
knowing that i wont wake up for such strange charts messing up my trading ( for i copy entries across brokers) give me a chance to sleep better at nights.

happy trading!
Zoltan

ps. originally intended to the discord only, but changed my mind about. i think this is a good example how brokers and results can differ drastically, or running an EA backtest on one broker to another may show a different result. it maybe take a few occasion like this ( or more/less magnitude) during the test period.
what data to trust? what tick data would be the correct one? luck? prayer? coin toss?

Nothing new when i was trading MFF 100k prop with personal live account as slave it was rear the price where the same....just saying...

hi
about 6 months gone since the discord channel created with the help of Nafis.
it has gained a stable core of about 35-40 users who regularly ( many daily) are there.
eventually it became the place where dont need me to partake it like i have before, not as a channel admin.


what is next?
not decided yet.

happy trading!

end of Jan.
the first month of 2021 is done.
decent start.
ewanted to play it safe,
new year = clean slate, starting to trade totally fresh, the P/L from last year irrelevant anymore to make a living this year.
apart from this last 2 days that was more hectic for me than the rest, it was a very smooth month.
got exactly what i wanted, even a hair more.


stepping back from discord admin function went pretty seemless, the room still can function, and fo the time still remain a troll free environment, not a small feast to acheieve without heavy moderation. but there we have it.

some of you have noticed, i did start a prop journal on Axi/Psy offer. i traded with them in the past, and will trade again now, and i think some of you may be interested in an alternative option for prop trading. (i dont have any direct or indirect benefit from that journal from Axi or Psy, and in general either, whatsoever).
i will update that some as it moves along the goals to gain more funds ( well, that is the plan) and if all is well show you that it can be done by nothing else that 6 month track record that tick some scoring metrix, and a 1k minimum master acct ( i use 2k myself, just the slave's multiplier adjusted to it lower, so to keep 1:1 risk profile).

mentoring: currently working with Azam from UK. and that will cover February.
have to add, it isnt suitable to everyone, maybe for the cost, maybe for my approach, or any other reasons.
and that is fine.
indeed, the forum and the internet is full of great advice and systems, and probably 10 lifetime wouldnt be enought to read all posts on Forexfactory alone!
the other hand, if having a mentor suit you, the way an athlete usually have a coach, someone to rely on, support you, and show you possible ways to improve...
that is fine too!
everyone can decide for themselves which group they belong to. we are all different personality, different needs.
it is OK to belong either group.

apart, little happening. the city here still locked down. supposedly, partially lifted next monday. i really would like that the condo can open the gym, the swimming pool. walking and jogging is ok, occasionally go to the beach is ok, but like to have all options so i can choose to myself.
same with restaurants, delivery time limited, some places cant dine-in, others just closed or bankrupt, not at all "normal". the mask wearing...rather no comment. almost a year gone, would never believed we human can/will force on ourself this much restrictions this long...but i was wrong. happens. and wish i would be right, and we never end up needing this mask wearing in the first place.

this summarize January.
off to the next month!

happy trading!
Z

hi

recently there was some more prop discussion on discord, and without the ful conversation, i will copy here some of what i have written in the topic.
WARNING: it is relative long read, even most other comments omitted, kept only mine to keep it shorter and more on the core topic; the full version is on discord.
disclaimer: as usual, what i write reflect my views, and my experiences, for good or bad, agree or not. just like anything else on my journal here.

starting not from the very beginning of conversation, jumping into topic...

"why go with them though? because they give you money to trade with?"

"why play in the casino? bcos everyone try to hit the jackpot moment. ever met with someone going to the casino telling you, here is this 100$ i get, will play 1$ a hand blackjack, and if i am up 3$ i am done and walking out? i have not. would think 95% of the ppl walking into a casino with a 100$ to play, will more than likely walk out with nothing. and the other 5% will come out with some money, maybe including one hitting a 5000$ jackpot even! when then casino tally up the numbers, they have made money, if not for every single day, most likely every single week/month/year. a calculated biz model.
they know for fact that the less money the ppl have to play with, the more likely they can be blinded by the chance to win big with hitting a jackpot, and the lot less likely to stop being ahead by a little. showcasing former jackpot winners, showing them good light and glam, enforcng the idea that every ppl stand the same chance to be one. and there is of course a chance. and a lot bigger chance to fall into the 95% who walk out empty pocket.
the jackpot is FTMO's few big payouts, that does all it is designated to do: entice the hopeful, least skilled to take their chance. FTMO is the casino. have some rules, like in any game of chance, to ensure on the long run they have the winning edge. like the casino has. the rest is numbers game: the more ppl play, and the longer they play, the less likely to come out on top.
the youtube testimonials are free advertising, and do a better job than any paid one could achieve. not that FTMO shy to make fake ads, they had in the past; they just dont need much anymore to do that. ppl now know who they are, just like they know Belaggio, or Ceaser's Palace on the strip.
the 70% cut, for what it matters, could be 80%, 90%....makes no difference to the outcome
so why 70% then? bcos it was not one, but two up on some competition that were there earlier, and it was the talk of the town, the buzz...."

"sounds "realistic" still too,,,,too high would spook some, too low, ppl stay with competition....remember, casinos need ppl to play. yet 70% will leave some manuevering room, can be specially raised to 75-80% if need to, as a promotion like free drinks in casino, or some comps.
the working model i would lower to 20-30%, and funds having increasing issues to even charge the 20...
2+20 hedge funds models are being lowered, and many cases 1+10 rather now"

"and of course, payouts....monthly vs quarterly. even some bi-weekly came up. why? play on greed, enforce short term views, that is why"

"the truth is, the % itself isnt important as much. meaningless without the other component: how big is the cake?"

"for a 200$ trader, 100k funds are the ....highest goal they can think of, bcos where they are. of course, many think: once pass the challenge, lower the risk, and just make safe trades, and 1%...but then 1k wont be enough to full time living to give up job, and go with the uncertain. so after challenge, the gambling aspect is kept up. lucky, make the payout testimonials. unlucky, start again. bcos growing a demo acct in challenge that has only indirect future monetary aspect to you IS totally different than trading a demo acct that has actual monetary aspect to you end of month."

"but bet the compensation side was somewhat foggy. not like a fixed salary+bonus, a la private bank customer "support"....aka the sales guy talking you into products that may or may not be the best suiting your need, but sure suiting the bank's
Axi supposed to send you an agreement to sign. never have.
remember reviewing years ago the one they were proposing for Mike, there was some questionable points about handling your trading

FTMO isnt different.
if funded, there cant be a judgement to execute or not a trade
but obviously not all is.
if they are a broker, they can run a B-book. they can benefit from the commission.
but FTMO isnt. they cant offset their demo trader's accts against each and only send to market the exposure
they can get a commission rebate if execute live, but not the bulk of the commission cost like a broker
( rebate...say charge you 3$, they pay actually 2 based on their live volume, and broker gets that 2, FTMO keeps 1 and a hand back; in case of Axi those numbers being a broker obviously different)
plus a broker would directly benefit for more orders goin into the b-book, bcos that would help the internal liqidity flow, and lower the need to hedge external risk
anyway, long topic for a sunny Sunday
all in all, FTMO did clever: offered more to gain market share, and the sporadic big paychecks do a fine advertising for them. there is a deep secret about just how long their average funded trader lasts, but in fact even those who pass and get funded, many never gets to payout#1, so the 8% passing means not 8% who gets refund and at least 1 payout!!
for someone interested, here is a link to another funding site, i think it can help some to put things in more context a bit
https://www.traderscentralfund.com/performance"
"it is quarterly performances, they highlight each 3 month period their best performer trader...i think there is 5 quarters....( not my results!!!)"

Attached Image (click to enlarge)

"
this is the last quarter's best trader.....a solid 10% gain....or about 5000$....
great
50k acct
but....what the trader's share? 50% = 2500$
ok, still very good, right?
but wait....did you say it is a quarter?....means 3 month?
so it is about 850$ a month.
still OK.
not a full time living though, not these numbers.
why this matters?
bcos was the best performer of the 3 months period....what was the average performer making? if the average or median whichever you prefer, even ignoring the traders possibly losing money the quarter, would suppose comes to about half of that the best performer, ie 5% for the period of 3 months....
or about 420$ a month....
i think it is clear to see why that may fall short to be a reliable income. or why that same math applied to a 10-20k acct on these funding sites, same rules so similar results, would fall to the category that the aspiring trader even if makes money soon would be inclined to push the button harder bcos making 100-200$ from a funded acct monthly wont make the deal sweet, time involved, money paid front, sometimes even recurring monthly fees there to deal with.
and now just noticed that wediscussed this in trade calls, never mind, weekend, i wont delete it yet, maybe someone wants to read."

"what i meant: probably one need to be carefully assess what is realistic, and maybe apply a combo of accts to suit the desired outcome. what i wanted to show thru the example, that even those get funded, a 10-20k acct will rarely bring the desired result, however tempting from the perspective of a 200-1000$ equity position those 10-20k funded accts with 50% cut look.....bcos the rules associated, one cant risk as they would normally do, cant have the exposure that they could otherwise tolerate, and bcos at some stage not bringing the desired numbers will more than likely to result frustration and stress than not.
to add, building up an account is only that quick on excel spreadsheets, not in reality, and not when one need to withdraw for expenses"

"So in your opinion Zoltan, what Prop company would be your pick if a traders was hoping to slowly gather funds over a year or two to be able to have enough equity from which they could trade full time."

"for zero cost, only potential benefit = Axi
one can trade his 200$ acct at any broker, and qualify for some funding....
for slow, steady, the same could apply to CTI and 5%er i think, as making 1% a month on average still rather possible with low risk.
there would be 2 route to decide on them:
based on timeline, and cost, that in this case of course invertly correlate
route#1: choose the lowest cost/smallest funded capital version, and trade a longer time to potentially get to the max capital
route#2: choose the highest cost/largest funded capital version, and save yourself the time it would take to about 2x double your funded equity (10-12.5x target profit x2)....which can well be a 1-2 year time saved.
and if you have enough money to gamble: FTMO
with some luck, even if 4-5 times you try to get to the funded stage and end of month1, even a 5% month1 can pay for the 4-5 trials easily.
if choose the gambling route, definitely the highest equity acct to go with, makes the most sense cost wise....and counting traders fail, no wonder why that is the case from FTMO, choosing to dangle the largest carrot the most appealing.
would also worth to point out, which i think i referred earlier, it doesnt hurt to use more than one option, or maybe use one to roll into another, lower cost/lower risk to higher cost/higher risk progression.
once again, time is a factor.
those who have a job income to depend on, +dont see why to rush, indeed, a gambling option could backfire for having the highest time pressure to perform in a period; every hour and every day may count big, only one with the job lacks exactly that: time.
the same time, if someone is dependent on trading income, slow and steady and a 3 yrs plan wont give a solution for buying food and paying the bills here & now.
full time trading doesnt automatically mean millionaire.
ideally, trading sufficient own personal money must be the base to prop shops trials in my opinion, so some pressure to perform is deferred to a comfortable degree.
why load on more than the unavoidable stress"

"point in case: you dont depend on the FTMO outcome. with or without you have income to support your life
what i wrote is a bigger picture view, not about you specifically for sure"

"yes. but there you have a choice, again pointed out: take the 600$....trade 6 months and start on a funded program, or take 600$ and do a max 20+40 days gambling span. each has pro and contra. both start from the same proposition of not having too much funds.
however losing 10%, has a totally different outcome for the 2 routes"

"on the route to qualify with one place if only means you down to 540$, and didnt lose your chance, the other it measn you need to dig into your pocket to fork out another 600$. if start from the not too much funds, at some point that digging in the pocket is likely not find yet another 600$"

"(name omitted) are trading the 5ers and with 6:1 leverage its hard he sais"

"it isnt the leverage part. it is the extra SL all trade, max risk per position...
he got 6 months....not that short to make 6%"

"maybe that isnt the leverage issue?
maybe it is his trading
how long have you been in dd this time on FTMO?
not that long.
but it is also clear, he can be 2 months in dd"

"if that is FTMO verification, 2 month and in red, that is also a lost challenge
challenge and in red = lost too
so, like above....TIME IS AN ACTUAL FACTOR"

not the actual end, but will end on this note.
congrats if you have made to the end!!

happy weekend!
Z

[quote=profitfarmer;13386626]hi recently there was some more prop discussion on discord, and without the ful conversation, i will copy here some of what i have written in the topic. WARNING: it is relative long read, even most other comments omitted, kept only mine to keep it shorter and more on the core topic; the full version is on discord. disclaimer: as usual, what i write reflect my views, and my experiences, for good or bad, agree or not. just like anything else on my journal here. starting not from the very beginning of conversation, jumping into topic... "why go with them though? because they give you money to trade with?" "why play in the casino? bcos everyone try to hit the jackpot moment. ever met with someone going to the casino telling you, here is this 100$ i get, will play 1$ a hand blackjack, and if i am up 3$ i am done and walking out? i have not. would think 95% of the ppl walking into a casino with a 100$ to play, will more than likely walk out with nothing. and the other 5% will come out with some money, maybe including one hitting a 5000$ jackpot even! when then casino tally up the numbers, they have made money, if not for every single day, most likely every single week/month/year. a calculated biz model. they know for fact that the less money the ppl have to play with, the more likely they can be blinded by the chance to win big with hitting a jackpot, and the lot less likely to stop being ahead by a little. showcasing former jackpot winners, showing them good light and glam, enforcng the idea that every ppl stand the same chance to be one. and there is of course a chance. and a lot bigger chance to fall into the 95% who walk out empty pocket. the jackpot is FTMO's few big payouts, that does all it is designated to do: entice the hopeful, least skilled to take their chance. FTMO is the casino. have some rules, like in any game of chance, to ensure on the long run they have the winning edge. like the casino has. the rest is numbers game: the more ppl play, and the longer they play, the less likely to come out on top. the youtube testimonials are free advertising, and do a better job than any paid one could achieve. not that FTMO shy to make fake ads, they had in the past; they just dont need much anymore to do that. ppl now know who they are, just like they know Belaggio, or Ceaser's Palace on the strip. the 70% cut, for what it matters, could be 80%, 90%....makes no difference to the outcome so why 70% then? bcos it was not one, but two up on some competition that were there earlier, and it was the talk of the town, the buzz...." "sounds "realistic" still too,,,,too high would spook some, too low, ppl stay with competition....remember, casinos need ppl to play. yet 70% will leave some manuevering room, can be specially raised to 75-80% if need to, as a promotion like free drinks in casino, or some comps. the working model i would lower to 20-30%, and funds having increasing issues to even charge the 20... 2+20 hedge funds models are being lowered, and many cases 1+10 rather now" "and of course, payouts....monthly vs quarterly. even some bi-weekly came up. why? play on greed, enforce short term views, that is why" "the truth is, the % itself isnt important as much. meaningless without the other component: how big is the cake?" "for a 200$ trader, 100k funds are the ....highest goal they can think of, bcos where th

Hi PF hope you are well,
Good post, i agree entirely 100% with the casino farce, people will always be dazzled by flashing lights ,razzamatazz and the way to unfound riches from the casino, and should they get a run.Alcohol should fix it.

i cannot answer with confidence for the latter part of you post as it doesnt affect me.
I only know that nobody gets something for nothing, maybe the wannabee trader will be led on by a life of grandeur with flash cars ,houses,boats teeth and a posse' of beautiful girls, like i have . lol. (((JOKING)))
Trade well bud. Stay Safe..

hi Billytt,

for some reason casino has a negative connotation, but the reality that professional gambling and professional trading share a lot in common: the rulesand goals are basic enough and defined enough,there is no certain outcome, but there is probabilities and bet sizes at one's disposal.

i am not a drinker really, but remember going into a casino the first time. from all the places, it was in Sri Lanka, the casino next to the airport, and 6 hours to waste until departure time. ( end of a 3 weeks trip around the island with a friend)
it was foreigners only, not only free drinks, but free cigs, and free buffer food too!!
figured exchanging my 20$, the dinner would be in itself a 10er, what can i lose? was only hoping i can play for a while. the base bet on roulette was equalient to 20c, so not betting too heavy should last a while
long story short, i came out well ahead.

the flashy cars are pricey here, but i am working on the other 2 components
happy trading to you!
Z

hey pf,

I'm a bit confused.
I remember you trying and passing FTMO's challenge and I'm not sure but I think you got some major funding from it.
You also had the axi funding.
I think you were all pro funding schemes back then.
Lately I see some reservations and pushback against the funders (except maybe axi)
Am I mistaken or suffer from bad memory?

hi OutThere,

partially bad memory.

i am pretty sure i havent (yet?) traded FTMO, i am not too fond on the 10% month part, the rest is good. so no passed challenge or major funding for me from them.
i have one proposal to them though, putting up 10k collatoral myself, fully be responsible for 100% of the downside in exchange for 70% profit on a 100k acct.
which they didnt accept. i wont draw conclusions here on what that possible means, you can make your own opinion on it.

Axi, yes, been there done that, pro and later traded quite a while with a different special deal, which i wont want to go into details now.
had some differences last year, switched my main trading from them to ICM, but since my former play acct would also qualify, i would give them a go again.
new year, new fun.
i have made good money on Axi all in all.

having reservations and/or pushbacks of funding schemes and the funders...no, i have really not. some better then others, non is perfect from traders standpoint though, and as a trader that is where i view it from. i try to look at them a realistic way which is of course my reality, and your experience may differ which i totally understand.
i feel i am looking all unbiased, axi too, past "performance" not meaning anything going forward. nowadays there are many of these prop shops, but really a few worth to consider seriously. i wish somehow the offers self-consolidate and some decent offers emerge.
1:5 leverage isnt, 10% monthly profit target isnt, etc. not if you are looking at trading on a longer period, sustainable.
i would imagine maybe 30:1 leverage, 5% max daily dd, and 10% profit target in 6 month....yep, i think that would sound more sensible

happy trading!
Z

Hi PF, i visited a casino many years ago on a night out which was fun,and i think i lost about £30/£40.
But i will not play games unless i can get the edge.
BUT,,,not too long ago we used to take a guy to a London casino when i was a bg,he lost thousands on a spin of the wheel.
It had nothing to do with me as i was his protection. lol, such a waste of money.

Ok thanks for clarifying that.
My opinion: They threw away a chance at getting 30K free money.

hi Billytt,

i think i can count on my 1 hand how many times i been to casino in the last 20 yrs....apart from Sri Lanka, once in Macau, once in Cambodia, and twice in St. Marteen...

never been crazy for it. not while young, and unlikely now as get get older.
but as long as it is the same cost of a night to the cinema, or a moderately fancy dinner, i think it is OK alternative entertainment.
however, Thailand has no legal casino, but have cinema or restaurant, so sticking to those options.
nowadays sometimes play a bit blackjack on my phone when bored. strictly "demo" money LOL.
trying to fully memorize the perfect basic strategy. but gave myself a long timeline and a lazy approach to it. already years in. mostly ahead. one day it will make me a lot of money. demo. it does the task it is "designer for": pass 10 idle minutes waiting somewhere.

I couldn't agree more with this post Profitfarmer! Most people don't see the commercial prop firm industry for what it truly is. They have a long way to go before they are truly usable by serious traders.

Just read this. Good that you post the COMPLETE picture. Going by that FTMO thread I thought this forum might eventually be online prop firm converts. However, your discussion is published on your thread. Your thread is also the catalyst that sparked this recent stampede to prop firms.

The herd will not care what you guys discussed. Greed and hope on their minds. Everybody is doing it, good money with limited risk. They won't read what's posted here. Even if they do read they press the ignore button. "If you're not good enough to get paid does not mean I won't get paid." that's the denial thinking.

But still good that your discussion that's complete and transparent is posted for whomever wants to listen.

Prop firms aside, you liken them to a casino. The Forex market itself is a giant casino. It's gambling, speculation is a nice word.

When you put two words, casino and earn a living together, it means professional gambler in the Forex casino. Trading is gambling, don't kid yourself. So basically forex daytrader is a professional forex market gambler. Tell it to your neighbours about forex trading and they see you as gamblers. The only people who don't see themselves as forex casino gamblers are retail forex trader.

Now tell your neighbour again you are a professional forex casino gambler that's what I do for a living. Look at their response. Go to a party, when asked what you do for a living, you tell professional forex casino gambler. That's the truth, I am not mocking what forex traders do. It is what it is. The daytrader has chosen professional forex casino gambling as his means of income, his financial future.

Why I write this post is to bring to consciousness of this forex trading activity, what it really is. This dream of making a living by daytrading forex has to be examined in detail to fully understand its deep implication. Is it at the level of lifetime commitment where when you meet your ex-classmates in your 60s or 70s you tell them I retired this year as a professional forex casino gambler. Your children know their father as a professional forex casino gambler. Think about it. Cheers

Thailand may not have casino. You still have lots of casinos in Sihanoukville and Poipet. Take a short flight to Nagaworld, Genting, PAGCOR Angeles City, Twin resort Singapore. Lots to chose from.

picked out the least important part of that post ... what part i think matters: "...never been crazy for it. not while young, and unlikely now as get get older..."
anyhow, the listed 5 included Cambodia, and of course Thailand has plenty illegal places to gamble if i would really want to, which i dont.