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In 2021, day trading in Germany will be dead

  • #321
  • Dec 21, 2020 7:56am Dec 21, 2020 7:56am
Just for information.
Table was made by Godmode-Trader as an update on this article: https://www.godmode-trader.de/artike...anders,8478516
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: nonsense.png Size: 76 KB
  • #322
  • Dec 21, 2020 8:19am Dec 21, 2020 8:19am
Quoting cuchuflito
{quote} Hi Drolph, I admire your positive thinking, and thank u for those links. Reaching the 20K threshold, day trading with a 5000 Euro capital is realistic. Like I showed in the calculation above. As to the whole thing "disappearing", I hope you are right,I love this country, hate to see it become a communist nightmare. I can't even believe this discussion is happening in Germany, I mean, this is not Venezuela or China. All the best here for everybody, and stay safe.
but "they" want to become germany a sozialist union, not even germany, the whole world:

"Kapitalismus und Sozialismus müssen verschmelzen".

https://www.godmode-trader.de/artike...-elite,8630523


and this is not a "verschwörungstheorie", its real.
trading is like dancing, don't think and just listen to the music!
  • #323
  • Dec 21, 2020 11:59pm Dec 21, 2020 11:59pm
Quoting cuchuflito
{quote} Hi Drolph, I admire your positive thinking, and thank u for those links. Reaching the 20K threshold, day trading with a 5000 Euro capital is realistic. Like I showed in the calculation above. As to the whole thing "disappearing", I hope you are right,I love this country, hate to see it become a communist nightmare. I can't even believe this discussion is happening in Germany, I mean, this is not Venezuela or China. All the best here for everybody, and stay safe.

Thanks for your kind words, wishing you the best as well.

All I am trying here is to provide a realistic view on the topic while everybody is panicing. People cry about unjustified actions and laws from the political side but at the same time refuse to act within their given rights!

It does not change anything complaining about this decision when you do not start to fight it afterwards! And while I do not expect anything anymore from this government we still got a separation of powers in this country and a law is not worth anything when it is getting rejected at court. But it is not moving there by itself!

So stop running around like a chicken with its head cut off and start to fight!
  • #324
  • Dec 22, 2020 3:51am Dec 22, 2020 3:51am
here in germany the dictatorship is alive and done
nobody can change the set
We can only change something in Germany in the 2021 federal election, but our media ensure that everything is nice
merry christmas everyone stays relaxed
  • #325
  • Dec 22, 2020 1:49pm Dec 22, 2020 1:49pm
Quoting kette
here in germany the dictatorship is alive and done nobody can change the set We can only change something in Germany in the 2021 federal election, but our media ensure that everything is nice merry christmas everyone stays relaxed
I agree Germany's dictatorship is still alive. The Fourth Reich wannabe of Angela Merkel still discriminates on the basis of race and country of origin. My wife and I had a Lufthansa flight last year from China to Germany and the Frankfurt airport immigration officer told the Chinese immigration officer in Shenyang that my wife wasn't allowed to board the plane with me because Germany doesn't accept Chinese marriage certificates even if she has an EU Residency Card. The reason given was that there are too many Chinese people that marry people Europeans and once in Europe they divorce and stay illegally in the EU. I find that pure BS since we were married for 8 years. We took an Aeroflot flight to Cyprus via Russia with no problem. Since we were in business class we got our tickets reimbursed. On the other hand we had many flights from Cyprus to other EU countries including Germany and never had a problem. I guess Angela doesn't like China.
  • #326
  • Dec 22, 2020 1:59pm Dec 22, 2020 1:59pm
Quoting Hutch
{quote} I agree Germany's dictatorship is still alive. The Fourth Reich wannabe of Angela Merkel still discriminates on the basis of race and country of origin. My wife and I had a Lufthansa flight last year from China to Germany and the Frankfurt airport immigration officer told the Chinese immigration officer in Shenyang that my wife wasn't allowed to board the plane with me because Germany doesn't accept Chinese marriage certificates even if she has an EU Residency Card. The reason given was that there are too many Chinese people that marry people...

my words one person in the eu determines everything
this is merky
  • #327
  • Dec 22, 2020 11:35pm Dec 22, 2020 11:35pm
I wonder where are the German Forex traders.
I read all over the internet about the new law. Tons of people affected but only option, certificate,stock, etc traders.
Hardly any mention of forex.(?)
I´m trying to clarify if it will affect forex.Even what you read from the government´s side is not clear, sometimes they exclude forex, sometimes not.
It is obvious though that they really don´t know much about the complex trading world. Apparently they will be clarifying soon.

To make things worse, I asked my broker in January to clarify if my forex tgrading with them was affected, this is what they answered:

"Thank you for contacting OANDA.

Important: Forex cash trading is not affected because it represents the original product, so to speak. The affected products are all derivatives, so they refer to another product."

This just support our Forex pairs since those are spot transactions. "

BUT, I talked on the phone yesterday with one of their employees, and he said exactly the opposite, that all the trading with Oanda is CFD.

Talk about confusion!!!??

Anyway, in the beginning of the year I will ask my Tax Attorney.

These days in Germany, the best way to make $, is to become a "Beamte", amongst many benefits, they don´t pay monthly on their retirement fund (we traders finance that, with the rest), and they retire early too. Poor souls they work so hard .The whole planet is firing employees or cutting salaries, not them, happily working (or watching Netflix ), from "home office".
  • #328
  • Dec 23, 2020 12:13am Dec 23, 2020 12:13am
From 2021 all winning Trades will be taxed (Abgeltungssteuer). And FX will be handled like CFD.
That Info I got from the support of Pepperstone GmbH, Düsseldorf, Germany.
There`s no life before COFFEE!
  • #329
  • Dec 23, 2020 12:58am Dec 23, 2020 12:58am
Quoting jalkok
From 2021 all winning Trades will be taxed (Abgeltungssteuer). And FX will be handled like CFD. That Info I got from the support of Pepperstone GmbH, Düsseldorf, Germany.
that is a statement, thx.
trading is like dancing, don't think and just listen to the music!
  • #330
  • Dec 23, 2020 1:19am Dec 23, 2020 1:19am
Quoting jalkok
From 2021 all winning Trades will be taxed (Abgeltungssteuer). And FX will be handled like CFD. That Info I got from the support of Pepperstone GmbH, Düsseldorf, Germany.
"And FX will be handled like CFD." Of course cause they only offer CFD forex, not real ECN spot.

Peperstone is not an ECN broker, wonder if they want to prevent their German clients to migrate to real ECN brokers.

"Pepperstone is a no dealing desk broker offering straight-through processing resulting in ECN broker spreads. An ECN stands for ‘Electronic Communication Network’ which is how liquidity providers and banks interconnect which makes Pepperstone technically not an ECN broker but its infrastructure allows for execution speeds and spreads to be equal to an ECN environment."

There is so much BS happening in the forex broker world,many pretending to be ECN.
Again, we don´t know if the Real ECN Forex trading will be affected by the law!
  • #331
  • Edited 11:24am Dec 23, 2020 10:19am | Edited 11:24am
Trading GMBH, in Germany:
Not that expensive, not so complex, and the tax advantages are huge.
Question is to find a broker that accepts the account!
Check this video explaining it in detail.

Inserted Video
  • #332
  • Dec 28, 2020 12:50am Dec 28, 2020 12:50am
Considering this thread has a similar name:

Inserted Video
  • #333
  • Dec 28, 2020 2:53am Dec 28, 2020 2:53am
Still there are solutions, provided one has the time, put´s in the effort, and maybe has enough cash.
On the simple side:

It depends on the distribution of your winners and loosers.

2 Trades a year, make 1 million in one, loose 20000 on the otherone: Bingo.
Realistically you better keep an eye on your accumulated losses, once you reached 20000 quit for the year, grab your profits and go on holiday till next year..
Distribution again, if you are lucky, and most of the loosers come in the end of the year....but if they accumulate in the first half: tough luck.

One way or the other, German finance minister, punched almost all day traders in Germany knock-out with this law. That is a fact.
And btw. that includes all the broker companies that operate in good old Germany.
Hard to believe , but true, and it is not Venezuela or North Korea...
  • #334
  • Dec 28, 2020 3:06am Dec 28, 2020 3:06am
There is a clear intention of destroying trading, coming from the Finance Minister.
-Solidarity Tax (5%), has been scapped, BUT not for traders.
-Check this one: Finanztransaktionssteuer, charged only on big German companies stock trading, meaning if you buy Mercedes you pay, if you buy Tesla you don´t.
My first though was, are they getting money from "someone"?
Hard to believe such levels of stupidity, why would you prevent German savers form investing in their own countries industry?

Funny world, funniy times...

You all beware and take good care of yourselves.
  • #335
  • Jan 5, 2021 6:19am Jan 5, 2021 6:19am
hello everyone, im a stock day trader and this is the only thread on the subject i could find in english. i reside in germany but my german is not good enough to understand these topics.
i have an interactive brokers margin account where i day trade US stocks using 1:4 margin. can anybody tell me if these new rules apply to my case? im live trading since last summer and im still a break even trader, so i might end up in 2021 with 50.000 gains and 50.000 losses, making the above scenario catastrofic for me.

finally this Finanztransaktionssteuer does it apply? is it being discussed or is already approved? Tough to find updated info in english...

thanks for any help or any insight.
  • #336
  • Edited 7:00am Jan 6, 2021 2:06am | Edited 7:00am
Quoting valis9001
hello everyone, im a stock day trader and this is the only thread on the subject i could find in english. i reside in germany but my german is not good enough to understand these topics. i have an interactive brokers margin account where i day trade US stocks using 1:4 margin. can anybody tell me if these new rules apply to my case? im live trading since last summer and im still a break even trader, so i might end up in 2021 with 50.000 gains and 50.000 losses, making the above scenario catastrofic for me. finally this Finanztransaktionssteuer does...
Good morning.

I´ll try to make it short.

The last years you had to pay taxes for your profits. (Abgelungssteuer 25%+Kirchensteuer+Soli)
From 2021 you pay taxes on your cululative trades, means winners and losers additional.
End of year youn are allowed to reduce the value of your negative trades about 10k Euro (looks like they allow to reduce 20k)

If your losses are above 20k, you are allowed to transfer them to the next years, all incl. 20k p.A.

 

  1. "Ausfall von Kapitalanlagen (ab 2020)
    Nach § 20 Abs. 6 Satz 6 EStG dürfen Verluste…

    1. aus der ganzen oder teilweisen Uneinbringlichkeit einer Kapitalforderung
    2. aus der Ausbuchung wertloser Wirtschaftsgüter i.S. des § 20 Abs. 1 EStG
    3. aus der Übertragung wertloser Wirtschaftsgüter i.S. des § 20 Abs. 1 EStG auf einen Dritten
    4. aus dem sonstigen Ausfall von Wirtschaftsgütern i.S. des § 20 Abs. 1 EstG…nur noch bis 20.000 € jährlich angerechnet werden.











Demnach können wertlose Kapitalanlagen, also beispielsweise Aktien, nur noch bis 20.000 € angerechnet werden. Nicht verrechnete Verluste können vorgetragen und im Folgejahr wiederum nur bis 20.000 € angerechnet werden. Diese eingeschränkte Verlustverrechnung ist bereits auf Verluste anzuwenden, die 2020 realisiert werden (§ 53 Abs. 28 EStG)."


Example: 1 Million cumulative trades, 600K closed in profit, 400K losers= 200k profit
200.000 euros before taxation.--- Until 2020!!

From now:
1 Million cumulative trades, 600K closed in profits, 400K losers is 1 Mio before taxes, -10K (or even 20k??)
That is 990.000 before taxes even if the profits are just 200k!

There are many solutions around this crappy tax reform.
Trade well
Guido

Risiko birgt immer auch die Chance.
  • #337
  • Jan 7, 2021 3:08am Jan 7, 2021 3:08am
Quoting valis9001
hello everyone, im a stock day trader and this is the only thread on the subject i could find in english. i reside in germany but my german is not good enough to understand these topics. i have an interactive brokers margin account where i day trade US stocks using 1:4 margin. can anybody tell me if these new rules apply to my case? im live trading since last summer and im still a break even trader, so i might end up in 2021 with 50.000 gains and 50.000 losses, making the above scenario catastrofic for me. finally this Finanztransaktionssteuer does...
Hi there,

what Sesamstrasse wrote is right if you are trading with Futures or CFDs. If you are not, then you do not have the 20k limits.
Since you have some leverage, I would assume that you are probably trading those types of instruments. You will have to ask your broker or check on your broker's web page.

If the limits apply to you, you have 2 choices: Quit trading for the year (as soon as you reach the limit), or talk with your Tax-Advisor (and I would advise you to do it ASAP).
I talked with mine and what he advised for my personal case I posted here:
https://www.forexfactory.com/thread/...7#post13293687
and on some following answers.

Keep track of all of your trades and specially the losers so that you do not pass that stupid 20k limit.
  • #338
  • Jan 9, 2021 8:55am Jan 9, 2021 8:55am
If they are taking away day trading then it si probably for good reason. We do know that we have the time difference and yet markets are linked. Therefore we are all supposed to have a general tiem f trading eve though it is not going to be aligned with our actual time. Your time of the day which you call day trading may be another alces night trading and so the conflict arises from that. There are therefore some people who are forced to do night trade because they do not have much of an option. Then again we can never be sure of what the future holds and we may be surprised when day trading returns to germany.
  • #339
  • Jan 11, 2021 12:07am Jan 11, 2021 12:07am
Quoting valis9001
hello everyone, im a stock day trader and this is the only thread on the subject i could find in english. i reside in germany but my german is not good enough to understand these topics. i have an interactive brokers margin account where i day trade US stocks using 1:4 margin. can anybody tell me if these new rules apply to my case? im live trading since last summer and im still a break even trader, so i might end up in 2021 with 50.000 gains and 50.000 losses, making the above scenario catastrofic for me. finally this Finanztransaktionssteuer does...
Trading GmbH gründen...you tube ist voll mit infos auf Deutsch. Und ja, wenn Du weiter so machst bist Du voll betroffen, das heißt so funktioniert es einfach nicht nehr!
  • #340
  • Jan 11, 2021 12:11am Jan 11, 2021 12:11am
Check this: London is being "evacuated" by the Big Boys. But nobody moves to Germany. They don´t even want to come close to Olaf Scholz, who´s busy playing Lotto, and saving coins in his "Sparbuch".

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/city-of-...fade-1.1546587
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