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FTMO - For serious traders

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  • Post #4,961
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  • Dec 13, 2020 10:29pm Dec 13, 2020 10:29pm
  •  sampat
  • | Joined May 2012 | Status: Member | 268 Posts
Quoting doyathink
Disliked
{quote} I'm not sure why you make that leap of logic... providing demos allows them to filter our trades in whatever way they want to the real money accounts... it seems like a logical safety measure. If a funded trader makes a big mistake, they may have additional measures to limit losses.
Ignored
Not sure how they limit losses unless they predict future. Lets say I place short 100 lots of GBP/USD and FTMO decides its too risky and don't take trade and it went down 100 pips in few seconds who will pay 100K profit? By not putting trade they will loose 70K (profit cut) so how it helps?
Additional measures will only helpful if they are running casino model paying out from fees.
 
 
  • Post #4,962
  • Quote
  • Dec 14, 2020 2:04am Dec 14, 2020 2:04am
  •  doyathink
  • | Joined Sep 2010 | Status: Member | 270 Posts
Quoting sampat
Disliked
{quote} Not sure how they limit losses unless they predict future. Lets say I place short 100 lots of GBP/USD and FTMO decides its too risky and don't take trade and it went down 100 pips in few seconds who will pay 100K profit? By not putting trade they will loose 70K (profit cut) so how it helps? Additional measures will only helpful if they are running casino model paying out from fees.
Ignored
I'm just guessing, too, but they could put additional loss limits that stop trading at specified equity or margin or balance limits, or dis-engage from our accounts at scheduled events, or have circuit breakers for rate of loss... or allow their customers to choose various blends of these, depending on risk appetite.
 
 
  • Post #4,963
  • Quote
  • Dec 14, 2020 2:06am Dec 14, 2020 2:06am
  •  doyathink
  • | Joined Sep 2010 | Status: Member | 270 Posts
and, to answer your scenario, most investors are more concerned with protecting from sudden losses than from missed opportunities, methinks.
 
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  • Post #4,964
  • Quote
  • Dec 14, 2020 2:47am Dec 14, 2020 2:47am
  •  Koop
  • Joined Apr 2016 | Status: Conquistadores' | 1,545 Posts
Quoting doji
Disliked
{quote} That question has indeed been asked a few times, I'd agree. However, as far as I can remember, FTMO has not given a satisfactory answer as to why this is their chosen business model. Hence, dak99's comment: "That makes it look like their business is mostly making money of people failing challenges and taking part of these profits to pay the few who succeed."
Ignored
Damn Doji not you too lol. Well, the answer was satisfactory enough for me. They want to have full control over their live accounts so they could pull the plug or filter things whenever they want and have therefore linked your demos to them.
Also someone posted over 40k in payout on youtube.. i've seen 20k, 19k 30k etc.... you know how many challenge fees they would need to cover these numerous withdrawals monthly and still make a profit? minus refunded challenge fees?

But then again who really gives a shiznit if they pay profits from challenges? All you as a profitable trader should wrry about is that they able to pay you and you should probably pray more losing traders sign up too lol.
 
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  • Post #4,965
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  • Dec 14, 2020 3:50am Dec 14, 2020 3:50am
  •  Dmh
  • | Joined Oct 2018 | Status: Member | 101 Posts
Quoting Koop
Disliked
{quote} Damn Doji not you too lol. Well, the answer was satisfactory enough for me. They want to have full control over their live accounts so they could pull the plug or filter things whenever they want and have therefore linked your demos to them. Also someone posted over 40k in payout on youtube.. i've seen 20k, 19k 30k etc.... you know how many challenge fees they would need to cover these numerous withdrawals monthly and still make a profit? minus refunded challenge fees? But then again who really gives a shiznit if they pay profits from challenges?...
Ignored
And don’t forget the 70 employees.
https://www.dreport.cz/en/blog/tradi...rom-ff-trader/
 
2
  • Post #4,966
  • Quote
  • Dec 14, 2020 5:35am Dec 14, 2020 5:35am
  •  navk
  • Joined Oct 2010 | Status: Trader | 15,755 Posts
gold sell orders.

Going with the trend , weekly and daily is the key.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge

Name: FTMO MetaTrader 4.png
Size: 246 KB
Intraday only.
 
3
  • Post #4,967
  • Quote
  • Dec 14, 2020 5:48am Dec 14, 2020 5:48am
  •  Koop
  • Joined Apr 2016 | Status: Conquistadores' | 1,545 Posts
Quoting robots4me
Disliked
{quote} @Koop -- thanks. Yes -- of course, you're right. Why worry about weekends if you can't hold trades overnight. I was curious whether others had similar concerns. Setting aside the actual limits, since prop firms have well-defined rules then I've found they lend themselves to algorithmic trading. Until recently I would mostly focus on maximizing profit -- which makes sense when trading your own account and have the luxury of waiting-out DD periods. But with prop trading you don't have that luxury and you are forced to trade differently --...
Ignored
I personally would never risk it but this sounds like a workable situation no?

From live chat --

Attached Image


Quoting navk
Disliked
gold sell orders. Going with the trend , weekly and daily is the key. {image}
Ignored
how much left to reach target?
 
 
  • Post #4,968
  • Quote
  • Dec 14, 2020 6:13am Dec 14, 2020 6:13am
  •  robots4me
  • Joined Dec 2017 | Status: Member | 4,378 Posts
Quoting Koop
Disliked
{quote} I personally would never risk it but this sounds like a workable situation no? From live chat -- {image} {quote} how much left to reach target?
Ignored
Thanks @Koop -- but that still wouldn't work. I could easily have 20 positions open -- and that would be the case every weekend.

The only realistic solution I can see for approaching this type of requirement -- where you're using an EA that trades 28 pairs -- is to use a tighter StopLoss, such that come the weekend you close all positions and just hope the loss you are forced to eat isn't so bad. But there is always a trade-off, right? And the trade-off is that during the trading week the EA performs less well because of the tighter StopLoss.

@Koop -- I think your assessment that prop firms like FTMO target intraday traders is the correct way to view this. Fortunately there are other options out there. This whole business of prop trading is so new I suspect these companies are still finding their way. Perhaps FTMO will come up with yet another program better suited for trading EAs.
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  • Post #4,969
  • Quote
  • Dec 14, 2020 6:28am Dec 14, 2020 6:28am
  •  fx11trade
  • | Joined Dec 2018 | Status: Member | 134 Posts
Can we trade crypto over the weekend on ftmo? I checked the specification for cryptos and it doesnt write that its opened on weekend.
 
 
  • Post #4,970
  • Quote
  • Dec 14, 2020 8:08am Dec 14, 2020 8:08am
  •  Takisd
  • Joined Dec 2005 | Status: Com Member = Scammer | 2,572 Posts
Quoting Koop
Disliked
{quote} Damn Doji not you too lol. Well, the answer was satisfactory enough for me. They want to have full control over their live accounts so they could pull the plug or filter things whenever they want and have therefore linked your demos to them. Also someone posted over 40k in payout on youtube.. i've seen 20k, 19k 30k etc.... you know how many challenge fees they would need to cover these numerous withdrawals monthly and still make a profit? minus refunded challenge fees? But then again who really gives a shiznit if they pay profits from challenges?...
Ignored

they will not give a specific answer on this.

There is more money to be made managing incoming orders than to be made copying orders. I dont care how they do it, but you should consider the FTMO as a giant C-book where the company manages orders like a brokers dealing desk. This would be the most profitable way to manage the trades than to just copy them all and definitely the most risk averse given you have "rules" that stop traders from doing things when it would be more complicated to do. It also explains the whole weekend/hedging thing as well.

If I were to manage a prop firm like FTMO i would def be c-book algoing the flow.
 
1
  • Post #4,971
  • Quote
  • Edited 9:49am Dec 14, 2020 8:39am | Edited 9:49am
  •  robots4me
  • Joined Dec 2017 | Status: Member | 4,378 Posts
Quoting Takisd
Disliked
{quote} they will not give a specific answer on this. There is more money to be made managing incoming orders than to be made copying orders. I dont care how they do it, but you should consider the FTMO as a giant C-book where the company manages orders like a brokers dealing desk. This would be the most profitable way to manage the trades than to just copy them all and definitely the most risk averse given you have "rules" that stop traders from doing things when it would be more complicated to do. It also explains the whole weekend/hedging thing...
Ignored
@Takisd -- your post got me to thinking. I don't know for sure, but I highly doubt FTMO (or other prop firms) make their money from challenge schemes. The challenges are simply a way of filtering serious traders from non-serious traders. And your C-book explanation makes sense to me.

I used to wonder why the FTMO folks even needed us. I mean, if they are such great traders and have access to all this money then why don't they just trade it themselves? In fact, after you get funded, the bar goes way down and you don't even have to do such a good job -- just don't lose their money.

And then your C-book explanation made a light-bulb go on. They need us to press the BUY / SELL button. Even if they are good traders and even if they have 10-20 full-time employees, how many times can they press BUY / SELL every day? But what if they have 100 contractors? Or 1000 contractors? Now, that's a lot of BUYs and SELLS. And since they have middle software that oversees the actual transactions then they can prevent stupid shit from happening. In the end they don't really need us because we are such brilliant traders, they need us to press a button.

Enjoy it now while it lasts. We may be replaced by monkeys in the near future...
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  • Post #4,972
  • Quote
  • Dec 14, 2020 8:51am Dec 14, 2020 8:51am
  •  Trader-IT
  • Joined Sep 2019 | Status: Trader | 519 Posts
Quoting robots4me
Disliked
{quote} @Takisd -- you're post got me to thinking. I don't know for sure, but I highly doubt FTMO (or other prop firms) make their money from challenge schemes. The challenges are simply a way of filtering serious traders from non-serious traders. And your C-book explanation makes sense to me. I used to wonder why the FTMO folks even needed us. I mean, if they are such great traders and have access to all this money then why don't they just trade it themselves? In fact, after you get funded, the bar goes way down and you don't even have to do such...
Ignored
We are already replaceable.
I remember a few years ago, an article about a major London bank. Had fired something like 3,000 traders. There was also a photo of some people with the classic box of personal effects walking out of the building.
Crisis?
No!

HFT BOT

On the other hand, it is not explained otherwise, as in a split second, all GBP pairs move 80 pips, a split second after a tweet ... from anyone
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe
 
 
  • Post #4,973
  • Quote
  • Dec 14, 2020 9:06am Dec 14, 2020 9:06am
  •  EcoTrader
  • | Commercial Member | Joined Jan 2017 | 1,389 Posts
Quoting Trader-IT
Disliked
{quote} We are already replaceable. I remember a few years ago, an article about a major London bank. Had fired something like 3,000 traders. There was also a photo of some people with the classic box of personal effects walking out of the building. Crisis? No! HFT BOT On the other hand, it is not explained otherwise, as in a split second, all GBP pairs move 80 pips, a split second after a tweet ... from anyone
Ignored

I think it is safe to say that the days of trading Trumps tweets are over and I for one am happy about that. Several occasions perfectly good trades were smashed by the blonde bimbo in the white house tweeting.
 
3
  • Post #4,974
  • Quote
  • Dec 14, 2020 9:24am Dec 14, 2020 9:24am
  •  Koop
  • Joined Apr 2016 | Status: Conquistadores' | 1,545 Posts
Quoting Takisd
Disliked
{quote} they will not give a specific answer on this. There is more money to be made managing incoming orders than to be made copying orders. I dont care how they do it, but you should consider the FTMO as a giant C-book where the company manages orders like a brokers dealing desk. This would be the most profitable way to manage the trades than to just copy them all and definitely the most risk averse given you have "rules" that stop traders from doing things when it would be more complicated to do. It also explains the whole weekend/hedging thing...
Ignored
Oh, this makes a lot of sense. I can totally see how this could be the case especially when you consider that a prop firm would want almost absolute control over operations.
 
 
  • Post #4,975
  • Quote
  • Dec 14, 2020 9:25am Dec 14, 2020 9:25am
  •  robots4me
  • Joined Dec 2017 | Status: Member | 4,378 Posts
Quoting EcoTrader
Disliked
{quote} I think it is safe to say that the days of trading Trumps tweets are over and I for one am happy about that. Several occasions perfectly good trades were smashed by the blonde bimbo in the white house tweeting.
Ignored
Dude -- why do you need to bring politics into it? This is a trading forum, not a political rally...

How about just deleting your post and we'll all pretend it didn't happen.
1
 
  • Post #4,976
  • Quote
  • Dec 14, 2020 9:27am Dec 14, 2020 9:27am
  •  EcoTrader
  • | Commercial Member | Joined Jan 2017 | 1,389 Posts
Quoting robots4me
Disliked
{quote} Dude -- why do you need to bring politics into it? This is a trading forum, not a political rally...
Ignored
oh grow up and stop moaning about petty annoyances. This is a trading forum not a soapy
 
 
  • Post #4,977
  • Quote
  • Dec 14, 2020 9:28am Dec 14, 2020 9:28am
  •  Takisd
  • Joined Dec 2005 | Status: Com Member = Scammer | 2,572 Posts
Quoting robots4me
Disliked
{quote} @Takisd -- you're post got me to thinking. I don't know for sure, but I highly doubt FTMO (or other prop firms) make their money from challenge schemes. The challenges are simply a way of filtering serious traders from non-serious traders. And your C-book explanation makes sense to me. I used to wonder why the FTMO folks even needed us. I mean, if they are such great traders and have access to all this money then why don't they just trade it themselves? In fact, after you get funded, the bar goes way down and you don't even have to do such...
Ignored

When I ran brokerages, I did this experiment with random online EA's that were free and ran a dealing book based on them.
It worked, but keeping the EA's up without bugs was a nightmare because metatrader is so crap. I don't think that individual traders are replaceable in this scenario so long as metatrader is the platform of choice. Also, the trades that have emotion in them are the juiciest to deal, robot trades are more cold and less likely to have a large gain scenario unless its an EA which you are trying to b book for blow out like a grid or martingale system.

It would also explain why the profit split is so high because the revenue is higher than the split by far and is also a very positive thing for those who are making a living trading with FTMO as it shows sound financial structure.
 
1
  • Post #4,978
  • Quote
  • Dec 14, 2020 9:29am Dec 14, 2020 9:29am
  •  robots4me
  • Joined Dec 2017 | Status: Member | 4,378 Posts
Quoting EcoTrader
Disliked
{quote} oh grow up and stop moaning about petty annoyances. This is a trading forum not a soapy
Ignored
Dude -- you're posting petty annoyances and I'm the one that needs to grow up? I'm thinking you'd be one of the first in line to replaced by one of the trained monkeys...
1
 
  • Post #4,979
  • Quote
  • Dec 14, 2020 9:36am Dec 14, 2020 9:36am
  •  EcoTrader
  • | Commercial Member | Joined Jan 2017 | 1,389 Posts
Quoting robots4me
Disliked
{quote} Dude -- you're posting petty annoyances and I'm the one that needs to grow up? I'm thinking you'd be one of the first in line to replaced by one of the trained monkeys...
Ignored
I was replying to someone else when you felt it appropriate to shove your foot in it and declaring your petty annoyances. if I'm first in line, that must put you right by the arse end where all the shit comes out.
 
 
  • Post #4,980
  • Quote
  • Dec 14, 2020 9:39am Dec 14, 2020 9:39am
  •  Koop
  • Joined Apr 2016 | Status: Conquistadores' | 1,545 Posts
Quoting EcoTrader
Disliked
{quote} I think it is safe to say that the days of trading Trumps tweets are over and I for one am happy about that. Several occasions perfectly good trades were smashed by the blonde bimbo in the white house tweeting.
Ignored
Lol there'll always be something to cause unexpected volatality. Brexit related spikes are the most annoying, cost me a few good set ups over the months. Currently in a GBPCHF short from1879 and hoping some "fishery disagreement" won't spike up 30 pips and stop me at B/E.

Quoting robots4me
Disliked
{quote} Dude -- you're posting petty annoyances and I'm the one that needs to grow up? I'm thinking you'd be one of the first in line to replaced by one of the trained monkeys...
Ignored
hahaha. Scary thoughts. I need 3 more years before such a tragedy ever happens
 
 
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