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In 2021, day trading in Germany will be dead

  • #301
  • Dec 9, 2020 2:51am Dec 9, 2020 2:51am
Update from Godmode-Trader

Quote
***Update vom 9.12.2020
Das Handelsblatt berichtet heute, dass die Verlustverrechnungsgrenze auf 20 TSD (von zuvor 10 TSD) angehoben werden soll - auch rückwirkend für Totalverluste in diesem Jahr.
Damit dürfte aber die komplette Streichung des Gesetzes allerdings vom Tisch sein!

It seems that these idiots are happy with the limit at 20k instead of 10k... this is so stupid... it makes no sense at all..
  • #302
  • Edited 2:35am Dec 16, 2020 2:17am | Edited 2:35am
Moin.

"Klarheit in puncto Verlustverrechnung soll es für Anleger bis zur Weihnachtspause geben. Der Bundestag wird am 16. Dezember das Jahressteuergesetz verabschieden. Der Bundesrat muss die darin beschlossenen Neuregelungen in seiner letzten Sitzung des Jahres am 18. Dezember absegnen - oder könnte sie nochmals modifizieren. "

Source:

https://www.boerse-online.de/nachric...ert-1029881954


Abwarten, die Flasche Cordon Rouge stell´ ich schon mal kalt.
Risiko birgt immer auch die Chance.
  • #303
  • Dec 16, 2020 2:39am Dec 16, 2020 2:39am
Ich würde eher die Taschentücher bereit legen.
  • #304
  • Dec 16, 2020 2:45am Dec 16, 2020 2:45am
ich kann mir nicht vorstellen, dass die politik(er) so blöd sind und das model der Verlustverrechnung derart dilettantisch beschliessen.

...oja, kann ich mir doch.
trading is like dancing, don't think and just listen to the music!
  • #305
  • Dec 18, 2020 7:20am Dec 18, 2020 7:20am
Update von God-ModeTrader

Quote
**Update vom 18.12.2020
Nachdem der Bundestag der neuen Regelung schon im Rahmen des Jahressteuergesetztes zugestimmt hat, folgte heute der Bundesrat.
Damit ist die Neuregelung fix.
Verluste aus Termingeschäften können künftig bis 20.000 Euro im laufenden Kalenderjahr mit Gewinnen und Stillhalterprämien verrechnet werden – bisher waren es maximal 10.000 Euro. Nicht verrechnete Verluste können auf Folgejahre vorgetragen und jeweils in Höhe von 20.000 Euro mit Gewinnen verrechnet werden.
Verluste aus der Ausbuchung wertloser Wirtschaftsgüter...

Was für einen Blödsinn... Jetzt muss ich mich als Freiberufler anmelden, nur weil ich diese Fickers Regelung umgehen muss.
  • #306
  • Dec 18, 2020 11:24am Dec 18, 2020 11:24am
Dear wolf. Would you be so kind as to tell me how declaring oneself as a freelancer in Germany would help avoiding this tax? I just newly arrived in Germany for some years for studying purpose and am not well-versed in the German taxation system.

I spent the last 6 months learning about trading and doing demo trade and was planning to start in 2021, then suddenly learned about this new tax changes. This hits me especially bad, since the job market has not been particularly kind to me, and now I don't know any other way to make meaningful money to support myself other than trading.

Thank you in advance!
  • #307
  • Dec 18, 2020 12:20pm Dec 18, 2020 12:20pm
Quoting wolf__
Update von God-ModeTrader {quote} Was für einen Blödsinn... Jetzt muss ich mich als Freiberufler anmelden, nur weil ich diese Fickers Regelung umgehen muss.
Oder du beruhigst dich erstmal wieder und bleibst gelassen. Das Gesetz wird keine Anwendung finden. Period.

-> Verfassungklage bereits live
-> Du selbst kannst den Steuerbescheid in 2022 anfechten und kein Richter wird dich durch Steuern ärmer machen als du bist. Ja, dazu muss man aber Eier haben.
-> Allein das FA will ich sehen, das aus 120139103910 trades im Jahr minutiös irgendwelche Verlusttöpfe ausrechnet und nachweist, wenn du weiterhin Saldo angibst nach bestem Wissen und Gewissen. Einfach mal mit Menschenverstand agieren. Wenn dir der Staat sagt, spring aus dem Fenster, machst du es auch, richtig?

PS: passend dazu das aktuelle Video von Martin anschauen

Inserted Video
  • #308
  • Dec 18, 2020 1:51pm Dec 18, 2020 1:51pm
Quoting Whoops
Dear wolf. Would you be so kind as to tell me how declaring oneself as a freelancer in Germany would help avoiding this tax? I just newly arrived in Germany for some years for studying purpose and am not well-versed in the German taxation system. I spent the last 6 months learning about trading and doing demo trade and was planning to start in 2021, then suddenly learned about this new tax changes. This hits me especially bad, since the job market has not been particularly kind to me, and now I don't know any other way to make meaningful money to...
if you want to continue trading, and if you are making movements enough to trigger that 20k limit, talk with a tax advisor. Give them all the information you have (possible movements in one year, and so on).
My tax advisor advised me (for my personal case) to become a freelancer, so that I can put everything outside of the "Anlage KAP" / Privat Vermögen. But like I said: This is for my personal case.
  • #309
  • Dec 18, 2020 2:01pm Dec 18, 2020 2:01pm
Quoting Drolph
{quote} Oder du beruhigst dich erstmal wieder und bleibst gelassen. Das Gesetz wird keine Anwendung finden. Period. -> Verfassungklage bereits live -> Du selbst kannst den Steuerbescheid in 2022 anfechten und kein Richter wird dich durch Steuern ärmer machen als du bist. Ja, dazu muss man aber Eier haben. -> Allein das FA will ich sehen, das aus 120139103910 trades im Jahr minutiös irgendwelche Verlusttöpfe ausrechnet und nachweist, wenn du weiterhin Saldo angibst nach bestem Wissen und Gewissen. Einfach mal mit Menschenverstand agieren. Wenn dir...
Hi, danke für das Video. Ich folge ihn schon.
Das wird nächstes Jahr mein Problem leider nicht lösen (in die Zukunft hoffentlich schon), aber gerade brauche ich eine Lösung für genau nächstes Jahr.
Ich helfe gerne bei der Verfassungsklage, wie er von seiner Community bittet, aber zuerst muss ich mein Trading absichern, dass ich nächstes Jahr keine unberechtigte Steuerzahlung machen muss.
  • #310
  • Dec 19, 2020 3:10pm Dec 19, 2020 3:10pm
Still don´t know if it applies to Forex, looks like Scholz neither..
  • #311
  • Dec 19, 2020 3:52pm Dec 19, 2020 3:52pm
Quoting cuchuflito
Still don´t know if it applies to Forex, looks like Scholz neither..
I remember a while ago that someone posted that it only applies to stocks, stock options and the like but not to forex. If Scholz doesn't know you can only conclude that he isn't the best and smartest tool in the toolbox
  • #312
  • Dec 20, 2020 1:24am Dec 20, 2020 1:24am
Quoting Hutch
{quote} I remember a while ago that someone posted that it only applies to stocks, stock options and the like but not to forex. If Scholz doesn't know you can only conclude that he isn't the best and smartest tool in the toolbox
Yes, I read that too Hutch.It does apply full on on CFDs. though.
Oanda assured me a while ago,Forex is not a CFD in their books.
I guess trading with an non-market-maker broker would clear that issue.

Scholz is sadly very smart.He doesn´t understand trading very much, and he really doesn´t care.
Politicians trade on votes.The attack on "speculators", works like a beauty on a big part of the german population.He´s ambition is to become Bundeskanzler.
Minor problem for him though, with Covid, many people at home turned to trading.Poor newbies, they will end up with a surprise in the end of next year, but will probably decide never to vote him again.
  • #313
  • Dec 20, 2020 1:37am Dec 20, 2020 1:37am
Correct me if I´m wrong:
The law is stamped, at least for now.

So you are a profitable trader, 10000 Euros capital.
Risk 1% per trade, you daytrade, average 4 trades a day.
Loose on 50%, win 1,5 on the other 50%.
200 trading days a year.
800 trades.
400 loosers= 40000 Euros, (way beyond the 20000 limit.)
400 winners= 60000 Euros.
You made 20000 profit, but end up giving it all to the finance minister.
You literally work for them.

A bigger trader, with a 100000 Euro capital, will end up in debt for the rest of his life, although he made a nice 200000 Euro profit.
Basically, this law literally destroys trading (for the most part ), in Germany.

In my view, anyone making a living on trading, for the moment, his only option is to move to another EU country, I googled Luxembourg, apparently, it could be an option. You can still live in Germany but pay taxes in Luxembourg. Beckenbauer does that (I read) "living in Austria".Only problem for me, would be the health insurance, I would have to travel to Luxembourg to visit my dentist.
  • #314
  • Dec 20, 2020 1:39am Dec 20, 2020 1:39am
The next one: if Forex is the only option left, then sooner or later most German traders will move to forex.
Then, sooner or later Scholz will come after us.
  • #315
  • Dec 20, 2020 11:27am Dec 20, 2020 11:27am
Quoting cuchuflito
{quote} Scholz´s ambition is to become Bundeskanzler.
Scholz's ambition to become Bundeskanzler will not be realised. With this stupid law he will only become BundesGanster until the next election
  • #316
  • Dec 20, 2020 11:37am Dec 20, 2020 11:37am
Inserted Video
  • #317
  • Dec 20, 2020 12:20pm Dec 20, 2020 12:20pm
UK Traders sipping their coffees
  • #318
  • Dec 21, 2020 6:02am Dec 21, 2020 6:02am
Some more bad news.
I just talked on the phone to a German employee from OANDA in the UK.
Asked him if OANDA´s forex trades are CFD trades!
Yes, they are!!!
Meaning, day- trading "CFD Forex", in Germany, is for the moment, finished. Unless of course you love the Finanzamt and want to work for them!
The next question is: what about "spot Forex" (leveraged), with a non-market maker, ECN broker?
  • #319
  • Dec 21, 2020 9:06am Dec 21, 2020 9:06am
Quoting cuchuflito
Meaning, day- trading "CFD Forex", in Germany, is for the moment, finished.
Wrong!

It is your personal decision .. at maximum.

People with common sense keep trading the way they are used to. The ones with little to no capital wont reach the 20k threshold anyway and the rest can afford a lawyer in the worst case. Most likely they won't even have to considering the possible reasons this nonsense will get deleted earlier which I have discussed in previos posts.
  • #320
  • Dec 21, 2020 9:55am Dec 21, 2020 9:55am
Quoting Drolph
{quote} Wrong! It is your personal decision .. at maximum. People with common sense keep trading the way they are used to. The ones with little to no capital wont reach the 20k threshold anyway and the rest can afford a lawyer in the worst case. Most likely they won't even have to considering the possible reasons this nonsense will get deleted earlier which I have discussed in previos posts.
Hi Drolph, I admire your positive thinking, and thank u for those links.
Reaching the 20K threshold, day trading with a 5000 Euro capital is realistic. Like I showed in the calculation above.
As to the whole thing "disappearing", I hope you are right,I love this country, hate to see it become a communist nightmare.
I can't even believe this discussion is happening in Germany, I mean, this is not Venezuela or China.

All the best here for everybody, and stay safe.
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