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In 2021, day trading in Germany will be dead

  • #281
  • Oct 10, 2020 3:03am Oct 10, 2020 3:03am
Hmmm, so wie ich das verstehe, ist die Sache noch nicht vom Tisch. Nach meinem Verständnis spricht sich der Bundesrat für eine Streichung der Verlustverrechnungsbeschränkungen aus, was aber scheinbar eher einer Empfehlung gleich kommt. Ob der Bundestag dem nach kommt, steht auf einem anderen Blatt geschrieben.

Wenn der Passus wirklich wegfällt, dann bleibt immer noch die Sch... mit dem sofortigem Abführen der Abgeltungssteuer.
  • #282
  • Oct 11, 2020 1:02pm Oct 11, 2020 1:02pm
Quoting MCFly
Hmmm, so wie ich das verstehe, ist die Sache noch nicht vom Tisch. Nach meinem Verständnis spricht sich der Bundesrat für eine Streichung der Verlustverrechnungsbeschränkungen aus, was aber scheinbar eher einer Empfehlung gleich kommt. Ob der Bundestag dem nach kommt, steht auf einem anderen Blatt geschrieben. Wenn der Passus wirklich wegfällt, dann bleibt immer noch die Sch... mit dem sofortigem Abführen der Abgeltungssteuer.
Der Bundestag wird einen Teufel tun, er wird durchwinken und bestätigen, was der BR beschlossen hat. Wenn nicht, so hat der Bundesrat ja gleich alle Anfechtungsgründe frei Haus geliefert und bestätigt, dass die linken Betonköppe der SPD das GG mit Füssen getreten haben - und die Union schlafend mitgemacht hat. Sowas passiert halt, wenn man mit der Keule überall boesze N`s sucht oder sich einbildet. Das (derzeit noch gültige) Gesetz ist eine Schande für die Union und die Entschleierung der RRG.
  • #283
  • Oct 14, 2020 3:25am Oct 14, 2020 3:25am
https://www.handelsblatt.com/finanze.../26271954.html
  • #284
  • Oct 14, 2020 4:37am Oct 14, 2020 4:37am
Wie ich bereits Anfang des Jahres gesagt habe, viel Wind um nichts.

On top wird ja auch vorm Verfassungsgericht dagegen vorgegangen.

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  • #285
  • Oct 14, 2020 7:45am Oct 14, 2020 7:45am
Quoting Drolph
Wie ich bereits Anfang des Jahres gesagt habe, viel Wind um nichts. On top wird ja auch vorm Verfassungsgericht dagegen vorgegangen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t55ehCPP92c

Das Ding ist noch lange nicht gecancelt...
  • #286
  • Nov 12, 2020 8:06am Nov 12, 2020 8:06am
Zitiert aus einer Auskunft der Grünen im Deutschen Bundestag:

"... vielen Dank für Ihre Nachricht. Ihren Unmut über das Gesetzgebungsverfahren der Großen Koalition können wir als Grüne Bundestagsfraktion gut verstehen.

Die von Ihnen angesprochenen Änderungen zum Einkommensteuergesetz waren zunächst schon für das sogenannte "Jahressteuergesetz 2019" vorgesehen, welches kurze Zeit vorher vom Bundestag verabschiedet wurde. Im Regierungsentwurf zum „Jahressteuergesetz 2019“ vom 23.09.2019 war ursprünglich vorgesehen, die Verlustverrechnung für Verluste aus Termingeschäften und ähnliche vollständig auszuschließen. Im Rahmen des Gesetzes zur Einführung einer Pflicht zur Mitteilung grenzüberschreitender Steuergestaltungen wurde dann die betragsmäßig beschränkte Verlustverrechnung umgesetzt.

Umgesetzt wurde diese Gesetzesänderung, weil der Bundesfinanzhof die Sichtweise der Bundesregierung, wonach Totalverluste aus Termingeschäften nicht dem steuerbaren Bereich zuzurechnen sind, nicht anerkannte. Um die Auswirkungen dieser Rechtsprechung zu begrenzen, einigte sich die Große Koalition auf die beschränkte Verlustverrechnung, auch mit dem Ziel den spekulativen Finanzhandel einzudämmen.

Grundsätzlich teilen wir als Grüne Bundestagsfraktion das Ziel, Spekulationen am Finanzmarkt einzudämmen. Allerdings soll dies für alle Marktakteure gleichermaßen gelten und nicht nur für Privatanleger*innen. Die Einführung dieser Regelung zeigt, dass die Abgeltungsteuer an vielen Stellen ungerecht wirkt. Aus diesem Grunde setzen wir uns schon lange für eine Abschaffung der Abgeltungssteuer ein. In einer umfassenderen Reform, bei dem Kapitalerträge wieder in das normale Besteuerungsverfahren zurückgeführt werden, können dann die von Ihnen angeführten und viele weitere Ungerechtigkeiten behoben werden."
  • #287
  • Nov 25, 2020 6:11am Nov 25, 2020 6:11am
Hi,

Does anyone know if there has been any update to this? I am not even based in Germany, but this is scary that countries could effecitevly end day trading with this ruling.

The left wing are so stupid, they would rather nobody makes money than sensibly raise money from those that do make money.

Are any of you German traders doing anything to avoid this tax?
  • #288
  • Nov 25, 2020 9:40am Nov 25, 2020 9:40am
Currently, work is underway on the Annual Tax Act 2020, which is to apply from 2021. This is currently being coordinated between the Bundestag and the Bundesrat (representation of the federal states at federal level). At its meeting in October, the Bundesrat introduced the deletion of the regulation in the draft. The Bundesrat must approve the law. However, the Bundestag's Finance Committee has not yet incorporated the amendment into its draft. CDU/CSU (Chancellor Merkel's party) and FDP (opposition) would like to delete the regulation before it enters into force. However, the initiator of this regulation, Binding (SPD - coalition partner of CDU/CSU), has already threatened to completely burst the tax law for 2021, if the passage for deletion is included in the draft.

Actually the annual tax law 2020 should have been passed already on November 19, but has now been postponed to mid-December. There is likely to be a fierce dispute between the CDU/CSU and SPD over this regulation, as the parliamentary scientific service sees very serious constitutional concerns about equal treatment in taxation.

How can the regulation be avoided? By founding a corporation (GmbH, AG). The regulation only applies to natural persons. A corporation is taxed in Germany by means of the Corporation Tax Act, where this regulation does not exist. Alternatively, one can move to another country, but then one must very consistently end any relationship to Germany. The Foreign Tax Act has very low hurdles for Germans to become taxable in Germany.

But there are also some traders who want to take the chance. Could be interesting 2022, when they will get their tax assessment and possibly pay more than 100 percent tax. Then the tax office has to tell where the taxpayer should get the money from.
  • #289
  • Nov 25, 2020 10:02am Nov 25, 2020 10:02am
Quoting Frank_T
Currently, work is underway on the Annual Tax Act 2020, which is to apply from 2021. This is currently being coordinated between the Bundestag and the Bundesrat (representation of the federal states at federal level). At its meeting in October, the Bundesrat introduced the deletion of the regulation in the draft. The Bundesrat must approve the law. However, the Bundestag's Finance Committee has not yet incorporated the amendment into its draft. CDU/CSU (Chancellor Merkel's party) and FDP (opposition) would like to delete the regulation before it...

Thanks that was an interesting reply. Its a crazy law. If they want to "curb speculation" whatever that means theres so many other ways to do it. But to treat a loss as taxable is insane. As you say, if you set up a Ltd company that tax law isnt included and rightly so, otherwise you would have every shop owner, car company, pharma firm etc etc being taxed on their losses too.

I don't get socialists. Why not just encourage more profits, more trading and reap the tax revenues? If you tax a business out of existance your tax collection is EUR 0.00
  • #290
  • Nov 25, 2020 1:25pm Nov 25, 2020 1:25pm
Quoting Frank_T
But there are also some traders who want to take the chance. Could be interesting 2022, when they will get their tax assessment and possibly pay more than 100 percent tax. Then the tax office has to tell where the taxpayer should get the money from.
Just by common sense THIS is the reason this will never be applied. Founding a GmbH is definetely not a solution for someone trading with his individual funds only.

People claiming/proposing this are simply not aware of the horrible German corporate tax. Absolutely ridiculous. Does not make sense when AFTERWARDS you still have to pay your income tax and social insurance. Of course there is trade tax on top of that. Plus costs for commercial register, publications, IHK... This will erase every potential profit.

I am not changing anything. Already knowing that I can count on my legal protection insurance who is aware of this nuisance.

Remember how many decisions were rejected during the pandemic? Decisions made by this government are more and more subject for constitutional checks afterwards. And although they could not correct it officially at the moment due to the missing tax assessments, many voices from the constitutional court already signaled that this law won't stand a chance.

So the bets are way higher to get this nonsense off the table than making money with a freshly founded UG or GmbH.
  • #291
  • Dec 2, 2020 2:03pm Dec 2, 2020 2:03pm
Hi guys, same situation here with this nonsense...

Regarding the ways that one can use to avoid this new limit: I talked with my tax advisor, he did some digging and told me that founding a GmbH or UG as trader is simply suicide because of all the costs that it implies. On top of that he also told me that most of the Brokers do not like to have Corporations as clients, a Fact that I personally confirmed after contacting 3 International Brokers.
If this law goes forward, in my current situation, he advised me to declare myself as self-employed and redirect all my trading transactions through my Freelancer-Occupation instead of the Annex KAP / "Abgeltungssteuer".

I really hope that they amend this nonsense!
If you want to stay up-to-date check this page (in German): https://www.godmode-trader.de/artike...anders,8478516
I am literally reloading it once or twice a day
  • #292
  • Dec 3, 2020 2:30am Dec 3, 2020 2:30am
Quoting wolf__
Hi guys, same situation here with this nonsense... Regarding the ways that one can use to avoid this new limit: I talked with my tax advisor, he did some digging and told me that founding a GmbH or UG as trader is simply suicide because of all the costs that it implies. On top of that he also told me that most of the Brokers do not like to have Corporations as clients, a Fact that I personally confirmed after contacting 3 International Brokers. If this law goes forward, in my current situation, he advised me to declare myself as self-employed and...

Do not forget to monitor Martin with his constitutional action!

Inserted Video


Besides that I really encourage everybody to stop bowing on this criminal treatment from the government!
  • #293
  • Dec 3, 2020 2:50am Dec 3, 2020 2:50am
Quoting wolf__
Hi guys, same situation here with this nonsense... Regarding the ways that one can use to avoid this new limit: I talked with my tax advisor, he did some digging and told me that founding a GmbH or UG as trader is simply suicide because of all the costs that it implies. On top of that he also told me that most of the Brokers do not like to have Corporations as clients, a Fact that I personally confirmed after contacting 3 International Brokers. If this law goes forward, in my current situation, he advised me to declare myself as self-employed and...


Hi Wolf,

Why would it be suicide to setup ad GmBH or UG? I'm from the Uk (so wouldn't know about Germany) but it really isn't that expensive to setup a Limited Company. Costs about £150 in registering it and getting the documentation, that is a one time fee. You can fill out all your tax returns yourself, or if you want get an accountant to do it once a year for £700 or so. So maximum £850 for first year is nothing for a business and if it is then you probably aren't really making very much anyway so the loss of trading not really an impact.

Or do you mean the taxes you will pay as a GMBH or UG are so high? They surely aren't worse than just being a private individual? Corporation tax is only around 30% i believe in Germany (plus you can offset business costs such as software/charting packages etc) against that, whereas your individual tax bracket I imagine more like 40%?
  • #294
  • Dec 3, 2020 6:24am Dec 3, 2020 6:24am
Quoting Tomhgriff1
{quote} Hi Wolf, Why would it be suicide to setup ad GmBH or UG? I'm from the Uk (so wouldn't know about Germany) but it really isn't that expensive to setup a Limited Company. Costs about £150 in registering it and getting the documentation, that is a one time fee. You can fill out all your tax returns yourself, or if you want get an accountant to do it once a year for £700 or so. So maximum £850 for first year is nothing for a business and if it is then you probably aren't really making very much anyway so the loss of trading not really an impact....
You are paying your individual tax on top AFTER paying corporate tax. BOTH has to paid from the same profit. Here your calculation crumbles. It does not make sense to trade your own funds that way. Period.
  • #295
  • Dec 3, 2020 6:36am Dec 3, 2020 6:36am
Quoting Drolph
{quote} You are paying your individual tax on top AFTER paying corporate tax. BOTH has to paid from the same profit. Here your calculation crumbles. It does not make sense to trade your own funds that way. Period.

We do that in the Uk too. But in the UK you pay yourself a salary from the company. So we are allowed £15,000 in income before we pay tax. So pay a salary of £15,000 tax free, then the rest of the money you earn you just pay it to yourself as a dividend which is taxed at about 20%. But yes you also pay 20% or so on your overall profit on the company before any of this.

But it works out if you earn more than 35,000 you are better off operating as a business rather than an individual from a tax perspective.

BUT... if the alternative is no trading at all due to this insane tax id rather still pay that.
  • #296
  • Dec 3, 2020 10:25am Dec 3, 2020 10:25am
Quoting Tomhgriff1
{quote} We do that in the Uk too. But in the UK you pay yourself a salary from the company. So we are allowed £15,000 in income before we pay tax. So pay a salary of £15,000 tax free, then the rest of the money you earn you just pay it to yourself as a dividend which is taxed at about 20%. But yes you also pay 20% or so on your overall profit on the company before any of this. But it works out if you earn more than 35,000 you are better off operating as a business rather than an individual from a tax perspective. BUT... if the alternative is no...
Sure, there is a mininum income before tax payments start here as well. And of course you have to pay yourself a salary from the company here too. It is no difference technically wise.

Trading profits as an individual person are subject to the capital gains tax, which are limited to 25% at maximum. So it even is the other way around. The larger the profit, the better the situation as a private person compared to the company here.

And do not forget, it is not only the corporate tax as I have already mentioned. It is mandatory for you as a company to publish everything on a regular basis. Efforts for tax consultants is way larger (and more expensive). Again, I am not talking about managing other people funds, but for you own money alone it does not make sense.
  • #297
  • Dec 4, 2020 12:58am Dec 4, 2020 12:58am
Quoting Redbaron81
Jesus...if this passes in Germany I can just see the liberal government doing the same dumb as fuck shit here in Canada...fucking morons all around. How does this even make sense to them...unreal.
As long as I know, the only problem regarding forex trading in Canada is low leverage, but the taxation seems fair. Isn't it ?
  • #298
  • Dec 4, 2020 3:46pm Dec 4, 2020 3:46pm
Quoting vivaldi2
{quote} As long as I know, the only problem regarding forex trading in Canada is low leverage, but the taxation seems fair. Isn't it ?
In the US forex profits are taxed as normal income. In Canada only half the profits are taxed. I have been trading with Oanda Canada for more than 15 years. As a pro trader you can get 1:100 leverage. Many of my Americans compatriots use Oanda Canada because they can trade CFDs in Canada but not in the US and for the protection in case the firm goes bust. Hard to find a better broker.
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  • #299
  • Dec 4, 2020 3:55pm Dec 4, 2020 3:55pm
Quoting Redbaron81
Jesus...if this passes in Germany I can just see the liberal government doing the same dumb as fuck shit here in Canada...fucking morons all around. How does this even make sense to them...unreal.

Quoting vivaldi2
{quote} As long as I know, the only problem regarding forex trading in Canada is low leverage, but the taxation seems fair. Isn't it ?
Redbaron81 is totally right. Trudeau is screwing Canada big time and I thought that he was better than Trump.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/othe...on/ar-BB1bvmdd
  • #300
  • Dec 7, 2020 6:56am Dec 7, 2020 6:56am
Quoting Tomhgriff1
{quote} Hi Wolf, Why would it be suicide to setup ad GmBH or UG? I'm from the Uk (so wouldn't know about Germany) but it really isn't that expensive to setup a Limited Company. Costs about £150 in registering it and getting the documentation, that is a one time fee. You can fill out all your tax returns yourself, or if you want get an accountant to do it once a year for £700 or so. So maximum £850 for first year is nothing for a business and if it is then you probably aren't really making very much anyway so the loss of trading not really an impact....
In my personal situation it would be "suicide" because of the fixed annual costs of the firm which are something around 1000€ + Tax-Advisor + Taxes which are fixed at 15% + a variable Tax depending on the regional tax (avg. 15%). This regional tax could be legally avoided, but it is rare in case of traders. The costs are fine if you are making good money, but since I started this year with my live account, I am not making that much to make it worth those costs. My year was amazing, but I am still gradually putting more money in.

The other thing is: it only becomes worth founding a firm if your profits go over 80k (if you are single) and 160k (if you are married) because from this point on you start paying more than 30% tax on your profits.

The other point of founding a firm is to have legal and financial security, which makes only sense in trading, if you are handling other people's money. And that part is another roller-coaster itself here in Germany with approvals with the BaFin, regulations and so on...
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