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Why inverting trades doesn't work?

Two wrongs don't make a right
forget about tomorrow, just steal away into the night
The reason why INVERTING trades doesn't work IS the spread.

There is no other reason.

If you want, we can speak about why people fail, how to trade profitable, how to find a positive edge, etc. But this is not the topic.

The topic is: why INVERTING trades doesn't work. You speak about mental laziness, OK, make a little mental exercise:

Imagine a broker who offers a special offer: if you fund your account with more than 9,999 dollars, you get a week WITHOUT commissions AND without spreads. You say, whoa, I'm going to open an account.

You open an account with 10,000 dollars and you begin to scalp always with the exact amount of lots to make 1 pips = 1 dollar. REMEMBER that you have no commissions or spreads, i.e., ASK = BID. It doesn't matter if you buy or sell, you get ALWAYS the same price, because ASK = BID. OK, let's go:

You begin to flip a coin toss, or to follow a non-random method of entries, IT DOESN'T MATTER. The point is that you make x trades in that week, all of them with their SL and TP, and at the end of the week you lose exactly 1,000 pips so you have 9,000 dollars in your account now.

IF you take your history and begin to virtually reverse all your trades, you will see that if you had made EXACTLY the opposite decissions of all your trades, reversing SLs and TPs TOO, you would get now exactly +1,000 pips, BECAUSE ASK = BID.

That's the reason why inverting trades (it doesn't matter if your entries or exits are random or not, we are NOT discussing this here) doesn't work.
Aren't you a mathematician? What you say reminds me the old science joke about the scientists and the tin can.
What you say might be true in theory, but in practice you don't go for 1 pip per trade. And the reason why inverting doesn't work, might be that price could hit SL before it hits TP.

Quoting Trad3r
The reason why INVERTING trades doesn't work IS the spread.

There is no other reason.

If you want, we can speak about why people fail, how to trade profitable, how to find a positive edge, etc. But this is not the topic.

The topic is: why INVERTING trades doesn't work. You speak about mental laziness, OK, make a little mental exercise:

Imagine a broker who offers a special offer: if you fund your account with more than 9,999 dollars, you get a week WITHOUT commissions AND without spreads. You say, whoa, I'm going...
forget about tomorrow, just steal away into the night
Quoting spekitox
And the reason why inverting doesn't work, might be that price could hit SL before it hits TP.
Have you read the entire post? If I reverse all SLs and TPs TOO, when the price in the original entry hit SL before TP, in the reverse entry it would hit TP before SL, because always ASK = BID.
Ah yes, I get it, ASK = BID when you short then BID = ASK when you close. And BID = ASK when you go long and ASK = BID when you close it. Simple isn't it.....

Quoting Trad3r
Have you read the entire post? If I reverse all SLs and TPs TOO, when the price in the original entry hit SL before TP, in the reverse entry it would hit TP before SL, because always ASK = BID.
forget about tomorrow, just steal away into the night
Quoting Trad3r
The reason why INVERTING trades doesn't work IS the spread.

There is no other reason.

If you want, we can speak about why people fail, how to trade profitable, how to find a positive edge, etc. But this is not the topic.

The topic is: why INVERTING trades doesn't work. You speak about mental laziness, OK, make a little mental exercise:

Imagine a broker who offers a special offer: if you fund your account with more than 9,999 dollars, you get a week WITHOUT commissions AND without spreads. You say, whoa, I'm going...
Ok smarty pants...lets throw some real math/physics here and cut that BS of spreads short.

I'm talking about something beyond scalp ok, something that will apply to scalp swing or position trading scenarios.

Note the pic below.

When you flip the picture B starts to be the bottom and A the top of a ascending trend, but according to natural laws ( math) when you flip something you also have to flip the sign so the ascendant graph will go right back south again !
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: mirror.jpg Size: 118 KB
Quoting spekitox
Ah yes, I get it, ASK = BID when you short then BID = ASK when you close. And BID = ASK when you go long and ASK = BID when you close it. Simple isn't it.....
With ASK = BID, if you reverse SLs and TPs, original and reversed trades are closed at exactly the same time, and you open the next trade at same time and same price. What's the problem?

INVERTING trades doesn't work because the spread, it's a fact.
Quoting Trad3r
With ASK = BID, if you reverse SLs and TPs, original and reversed trades are closed at exactly the same time, and you open the next trade at same time and same price. What's the problem?

INVERTING trades doesn't work because the spread, it's a fact.
I want to add one obvious thing: if you make only 1 trade at year, selling the EURUSD at 1.5 and closing it at 1.19, it's clear that spread doesn't affect to your trades and reversing trades will show you a nearly to perfect reversing curve, but with more than 2,000 trades like the author of the thread, the spread is clearly the reason. The more closer you put SLs and TPs (scalping), the more will affect you the spread.

To Platypus: we can't apply such thing to trading, we are speaking about trading issues, not about maths.
Quoting Trad3r
To Platypus: we can't apply such thing to trading, we are speaking about trading issues, not about maths.
......Ohhh boy the retail traders world.... never ceases to amaze me !
Quoting Platypus
......Ohhh boy the retail traders world.... never ceases to amaze me !
Yes... It's an amazing world where you can become rich... Or lose your pants

Anyways I'm not going to argue more this question, I will open a thread when I have time to prove how spread affect trading with these rules:

- SLs and TPs less than 50 pips.
- Execution of orders at the same time.
- No slippage (backtesting).
- More than 200 trades at year.
- Same distance of SL and TP.
- Same amount of lots in all trades.

With comparison of curves of original and reversed trades.
Quoting Platypus
You are failing to understand the concept....the goal of the thread was to explain why a system that looses money will still loose money when traded inversely.

Try to swap the word speech to brain and maybe you will realise why you can't grasp the concept !
I do understand the concept but what I didn't understand is why you just repeated what tens of other posters had just said.

Did anyone say parrot ?
Quoting Intensity
I do understand the concept but what I didn't understand is why you just repeated what tens of other posters had just said.

Did anyone say parrot ?
Quoting Intensity
That's so wrong... I'm speechless. Looks like you haven't read the thread
When are you going to make up your mind Intensity .
Quoting Platypus
When are you going to make up your mind Intensity .
My mind is made up from the start : your behaviour of repeating what was said is wrong But that's not really important and I am going to kiss you good night
Quoting Intensity
My mind is made up from the start : your behaviour of repeating what was said is wrong But that's not really important and I am going to kiss you good night

Bonne nuit ma chérie!
Quoting Trad3r
INVERTING trades doesn't work because the spread, it's a fact.
I have to make a slight modification. Inverting RANDOM trades doesn't work because of the spread. Inverting trades with a true negative expectancy works perfectly well.

Your random system if traded mechanically has an expectancy of precisely ZERO.

This thread really is fascinating, but rather scary too.
Quoting Razzle
I have to make a slight modification. Inverting RANDOM trades doesn't work because of the spread. Inverting trades with a true negative expectancy works perfectly well.

Your random system if traded mechanically has an expectancy of precisely ZERO.

This thread really is fascinating, but rather scary too.
scary indeed...

even with a spread of zero, inverting random trades doesn't work...

simply because one has to know WHEN to invert i.e. maybe next time the trades are inverted the inversion loses and the original trades win...
Hear the music before the song is over ...
Quoting GlobalMacro
even with a spread of zero, inverting random trades doesn't work...
Agreed
  • Post #78
  • Quote
  • Last Post: Sep 25, 2020 8:27pm Sep 25, 2020 8:27pm
Quoting forextrader01
{quote} This post is for you and for Craig and Razzle, here you have a simple EA coded by miself (you can edit it and fix mistakes, if they are) that is not random at all, a system with fixed entries, and the reversal method, it is a daily breakout EA: hour1 = the hour to begin to open the trades, if they have to be opened. hour2 = the hour to close all previous trades, if they are still open. I'm using hour1 = 1 (the beginning of the asian session + 1 minute) and hour2 = 22 (the closure of the WS session + 1 minute) in GMT, you can change it to...
hello you any update for this EA?
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