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The5ers - Trading & Growth Program

  • #201
  • Sep 7, 2020 5:25am Sep 7, 2020 5:25am
Quoting The5ersTF
{quote} Hey Luxing First, I must say I am very impressed with anyone who would go as deep and simulate his own trading concept within the guidelines of the program. I urge any candidate to do the very same. It is a great thing that you have outlined this in your words because sometimes people relay a wrong understanding of a guideline. In your case, I think you have mixed the term exposure with stoploss. So please allow me to clarify both objectives. We require a stop loss of 1.5% max per each trade. You could have multiple trades, each could be...
Bottom line: usage of a maximum of 0.65 lot size altogether is the bottleneck, not the fictitious maximum 1.5% risk per trade.
I can have 6 simultaneous trades, but the max. lot size per trade is 0.1 to comply with the "0.65 rule".
My total cash at risk = 6 trades x 0.1 lots per trade = 0.6 lots x 15 pips stoploss @ $ 6 per pip = $ 90.
$ 90 cash at risk / 52k account = 0.17%. My risk per trade would be 0.17% / 6 trades = 0.03%, simple as that.

It does not change my perspective on the program, my conclusion is still the same.
From my point of view, a maximum altogether lot size of 0.65 does not make sense.
The above numbers clearly explain why it does not make sense...

LuXing
Wisdom begins in wonder
  • #202
  • Sep 7, 2020 5:41am Sep 7, 2020 5:41am
Just defining that "1.5% is the maximum risk allowed" would be simpler to understand and would allow traders to apply whatever money management stategy they want, as long as their combined position's SL do not go above that %. That is the account's exposure as I understand it. "0.65%" lot size should be a generic example of the average or recommended lotsize based on a certain SL distance from the entry price for that particular example.
By saying max lot size is 0.65 then you are putting an extra cap and indirectly forcing scalpers and other tight SL traders to trade your style. Many people don't scale in, many people don't move SL to BE and many people don't trail their SL. Personally, I have a fixed RR and either my trade goes to TP or to SL. So I take one trade at a time, period. So, I'm stuck with trading only 0.65 lots even if I could have 2 lots in and still be comfortably risking less than 1.5% of the account. Not fair.. but I guess it's your business and you decide how you want it to be conducted.
  • #203
  • Sep 7, 2020 5:52am Sep 7, 2020 5:52am
@AnRan, @LuXing

Trading with other capital would always have objectives to follow.
I respect your way of trading, however, trading under any work-frame would have guidelines.

With the way both of you are trading, The5ers is not suitable. At The5ers we have framed a very specific risk-policy.

It is definitely not for everyone. Our risk-policy is our agenda; to promote low risk in forex trading, and to prove it is truly achievable to make a living with low-risk trading.

I think everyone in this community should learn from you two, and this is how to do a fine study and simulation to truly conclude if a program is right for you or not.

Thank you

Gil
We are Forex traders - Come trade with us
  • #204
  • Sep 7, 2020 6:15am Sep 7, 2020 6:15am
Quoting The5ersTF
@AnRan, @LuXing Trading with other capital would always have objectives to follow. I respect your way of trading, however, trading under any work-frame would have guidelines. With the way both of you are trading, The5ers is not suitable. At The5ers we have framed a very specific risk-policy. It is definitely not for everyone. Our risk-policy is our agenda; to promote low risk in forex trading, and to prove it is truly achievable to make a living with low-risk trading. I think everyone in this community should learn from you two, and this is how...
Gil,

With all due respect, this has nothing to do with trading style or "the way both of you are trading" as you put it.
This has to do with money management, not with "low-risk trading".

"At The5ers we have framed a very specific risk-policy."
"Our risk-policy is our agenda; to promote low risk in forex trading, and to prove it is truly achievable to make a living with low-risk trading."

I just ran some very simple numbers: 0.03% risk per trade x 6 trades = only 0.18% capital at risk.
Would you consider a 0.18% risk spread over 6 trades excessive ?
Again, I think capping max lots at 0.65 is babysitting a trader in terms of money management.
A maximum drawdown, a maximum overall loss (be it daily, weekly, monthly) would make more sense IMHO.

Let me simplify even more: a trader takes only 1 trade per day on EURUSD, stoploss and take profit of around 35 pips, which equates to a price change of 0.25% or 30% of the daily range on that particular instrument.
Now, the trader wishes to risk 1% of his 52k account: $ 520 bucks.
$ 520 / 35 pěps = $ 14.86 per pip = a position size of 1.48 lots.
With the 5-ers "low risk policy" this trader can't even take half the position size.

You stated "It is definitely not for everyone."
I guess you're right.

LuXing
Wisdom begins in wonder
  • #205
  • Sep 7, 2020 6:58am Sep 7, 2020 6:58am
Quoting LuXing
{quote} Gil, With all due respect, this has nothing to do with trading style or "the way both of you are trading" as you put it. This has to do with money management, not with "low-risk trading". "At The5ers we have framed a very specific risk-policy." "Our risk-policy is our agenda; to promote low risk in forex trading, and to prove it is truly achievable to make a living with low-risk trading." I just ran some very simple numbers: 0.03% risk per trade x 6 trades = only 0.18% capital at risk. Would you consider a 0.18% risk spread over 6 trades...
Go to middle of this page: https://the5ers.com/trading-career/t...rowth-program/
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: Screenshot1.png Size: 53 KB


On the main page, the parameters and limits showed are for the evaluation, once you pass it, you get new limits with PM Level 1 account according to initial capital of it.
  • #206
  • Sep 7, 2020 7:09am Sep 7, 2020 7:09am
Quoting LuXing
{quote} the trader wishes to risk 1% of his 52k account: $ 520 bucks. $ 520 / 35 pěps = $ 14.86 per pip = a position size of 1.48 lots. With the 5-ers "low risk policy" this trader can't even take half the position size. You stated "It is definitely not for everyone." I guess you're right. LuXing
I believe you mix two different levels of the 52K program.
The 52K evaluation is on a 13K account - SL asked is < $195 and exposure is max 0.65
The first stage of the 52K is a fully funded $52,000 - SL asked < $780 and Exposure is 2.6 Lots

So with the numbers you have specified, you be totally inlined with the policy.


Quoting fuadik88
{quote} Go to middle of this page: https://the5ers.com/trading-career/t...rowth-program/ .
Thank you @faudik88 for bringing the program escalation table.
We are Forex traders - Come trade with us
  • #207
  • Edited 7:48am Sep 7, 2020 7:26am | Edited 7:48am
Quoting fuadik88
{quote} Go to middle of this page: https://the5ers.com/trading-career/t...rowth-program/ {image} On the main page, the parameters and limits showed are for the evaluation, once you pass it, you get new limits with PM Level 1 account according to initial capital of it.

Sure, but 1.5% of a 52K account is above 7 lots on a 10 pips stop-loss for EU, so same issue but with bigger account size!

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: Screenshot1.png Size: 30 KB


Of course, the account must be leveraged to at least 1:50, which I think might be the issue, haven't done the exact math, but I'd say they are using super-low leveraged accounts, below 1:25, that's why you can't really have more than 0.5% exposure at any one time.
  • #208
  • Sep 7, 2020 8:23am Sep 7, 2020 8:23am
Quoting tradista
{quote} Sure, but 1.5% of a 52K account is above 7 lots on a 10 pips stop-loss for EU, so same issue but with bigger account size! {image} Of course, the account must be leveraged to at least 1:50, which I think might be the issue, haven't done the exact math, but I'd say they are using super-low leveraged accounts, below 1:25, that's why you can't really have more than 0.5% exposure at any one time.
If you're using such tight SL like 10 pips, yes, this will be issue, even in your personal account, tight SL lead to higher volume and higher margin requirements. In this case you need to set wider SL or decrease risk %.
BTW I assume you have total of 1.5% risk based on multiple trades running. Because you shouldn't want to risk 1.5% on one trade while you have 4% relative drawdown. Every trader will experience losing streaks, even with perfect strategy. 0.5% risk per trade is ideal in the beginning, you can have 7 losing streak and pass the evaluation in less than 2 months.
  • #209
  • Sep 7, 2020 9:42am Sep 7, 2020 9:42am
Quoting fuadik88
{quote} If you're using such tight SL like 10 pips, yes, this will be issue, even in your personal account, tight SL lead to higher volume and higher margin requirements. In this case you need to set wider SL or decrease risk %. BTW I assume you have total of 1.5% risk based on multiple trades running. Because you shouldn't want to risk 1.5% on one trade while you have 4% relative drawdown. Every trader will experience losing streaks, even with perfect strategy. 0.5% risk per trade is ideal in the beginning, you can have 7 losing streak and pass...
Right, but you can't even have 3 trades of 0.5% each running at the same time, only when two of them have their SL at breakeven or floating profit allows extra margin (?) can you add a third 0.5%.
  • #210
  • Sep 7, 2020 10:04am Sep 7, 2020 10:04am
According to the maximum lot size limit, I think it is the secret of The5ers trading policy.

I guess, it not only money management but also prevents super scalper (latency arbitrage trading).

The5ers just want to find a consistently profitable (classic trading) trader only.
  • #211
  • Sep 7, 2020 10:06am Sep 7, 2020 10:06am
Quoting fuadik88
{quote} Don't talk with him, he broke my heart.

What do you mean?
  • #212
  • Sep 7, 2020 10:14am Sep 7, 2020 10:14am
Quoting NewTrader000
According to the maximum lot size limit, I think it is the secret of The5ers trading policy. I guess, it not only money management but also prevents super scalper (latency arbitrage trading). The5ers just want to find a consistently profitable (classic trading) trader only.
Well summarized
  • #213
  • Sep 7, 2020 10:22am Sep 7, 2020 10:22am
Quoting tradista
{quote} Sure, but 1.5% of a 52K account is above 7 lots on a 10 pips stop-loss for EU, so the same issue but with bigger account size! {image} Of course, the account must be leveraged to at least 1:50, which I think might be the issue, haven't done the exact math, but I'd say they are using super-low leveraged accounts, below 1:25, that's why you can't really have more than 0.5% exposure at any one time.
I think you have made your point very clear. You would wish The5ers allow more leverage. unfortunately, this is not the type of trading we look for as a fund. We have our own solid trading discipline, which is based on years of trading, teaching thousands, and seeing thousands of traders in the back office. There are many forms to skin the cat, and we respect yours, as well as others - I totally understand we can never satisfy everyone. Some will be under-qualified, others will be overqualified, and most traders will be good and appreciative of such a program.
We are Forex traders - Come trade with us
  • #214
  • Sep 7, 2020 10:36am Sep 7, 2020 10:36am
Quoting NewTrader000
According to the maximum lot size limit, I think it is the secret of The5ers trading policy. I guess, it not only money management but also prevents super scalper (latency arbitrage trading). The5ers just want to find a consistently profitable (classic trading) trader only.
No secrets for it. We are OK with scalping. NOT OK with exploiting technicalities.

We are about the market, and about the spirit of trading. Our risk profile is solid and simple, and it is how we trade ourselves. Whoever succeeds with it is our trader-personality type.
We are Forex traders - Come trade with us
  • #215
  • Edited 4:55pm Sep 7, 2020 10:47am | Edited 4:55pm
Quoting The5ersTF
{quote} I think you have made your point very clear. You would wish The5ers allow more leverage. unfortunately, this is not the type of trading we look for as a fund. We have our own solid trading discipline, which is based on years of trading, teaching thousands, and seeing thousands of traders in the back office. There are many forms to skin the cat, and we respect yours, as well as others - I totally understand we can never satisfy everyone. Some will be under-qualified, others will be overqualified, and most traders will be good and appreciative...
I'm not wishing anything, my whole point has been that your description of SL limit and exposure limt are incongruent with each other and thus misleading, just that. Other than that, I'm perfectly fine with your company having rules that every trader must abide by. All good and fair as long as it's understandable from the start.
BTW I'm just trying to help you reach out more easily your FF audience making things simpler and less subjective. English is not my native language, so probably it's me the problem, but I understood quite faster your terms after watching the video than by reading 5 times all the pages on your website.
Anyway, as I wrote earlier, your program shows good potential in the long term if only one can adjust to the right type of trading and wants to grow the account very very slowly. Not for me, I admit it.
  • #216
  • Sep 7, 2020 10:49am Sep 7, 2020 10:49am
Quoting fuadik88
{quote} Go to middle of this page: https://the5ers.com/trading-career/t...rowth-program/ {image} On the main page, the parameters and limits showed are for the evaluation, once you pass it, you get new limits with PM Level 1 account according to initial capital of it.
It's all the same, 13k or 52k account, just multiply the thresholds by 4.

On a 13k account, I need to cater for a maximum of 6 open trades.
I'd say this happens once per 24h cycle, usually during the Asian session.
Why 6 trades ? Well, a currency strength trader will typically trade the weak against the (mid) strong.
So, USD and JPY weak, AUD and NZD strong, that's 4 pairs already. Add a weak CHF and I could have another 2 trades.
The outcome of each trade being uncertain, it's simply not a good idea to only take 2 out of 6 potential trades.
I might end up with 2 losers and miss 4 winners...

In other words, if I take 6 simultaneous trades applying a very reasonable 0.25% risk per trade, my total cash at risk is 1.5%.
That's the max stoploss of $ 195 in the screenshot below, except that I am spreading that risk over 6 different trades, rather than putting all my eggs in 1 basket and take just 1 x 1.5% risk trade...

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: Screenshot1.png Size: 78 KB

Even in case of a black swan scenario, where all 6 trades would go to stoploss, I'm still "good" metrics wise.
Even if this were to happen 2 times in a row, 12 consecutive losing trades, I'd still be at $ 380/ $ 520 = 73% of my allowed DD.

Now, to trade using 0.20% (instead of 0.25%) per trade risk, my position size would be approx. 0.20 lots per trade.
Total open lots "needed" depending on the instruments tick value: approx. 1.20 to 1.50. Total lots "allowed", half of that.

For a 52k account, just multiply everything (except for the risk per trade) and you'll end up with the same proportions.

So, to cater for 6 trades, I need to lower the risk per trade to 0.10% per trade to stay within the "0.65 max lots" rule.
A losing trade would represent -0.10%, a winning trade an average gain per trade of 0.03%.
Therefore, applying the "max 0.65 lots rule", to reach the milestone target of $ 910, I would need to execute 233 winning trades.
Simple math. Run the numbers and you will see that the program "penalizes" tight stoplosses, basically any stoploss tighter than 30 pips.

LuXing
Wisdom begins in wonder
  • #217
  • Sep 7, 2020 11:43am Sep 7, 2020 11:43am
Quoting The5ersTF
{quote} I think you have made your point very clear. You would wish The5ers allow more leverage.
Allowed leverage is currently 1:5.
European financial supervising authorities are pretty strict and allow a maximum leverage of 1:30.
Using only 30% of that, is using 1:10 leverage really unreasonable ?

LuXing
Wisdom begins in wonder
  • #218
  • Sep 7, 2020 12:19pm Sep 7, 2020 12:19pm
Quoting LuXing
{quote} This little 1-click order entry and management EA will take care of setting TP/SL, position size, etc. etc. You can pre-define position size / risk % (based on account size and stoploss in points), enter at market, enter at the next 50/100 price level, use breakeven, trailstop, etc. etc. Should work with prefix/suffix. LuXing {file} {file}
It should add SL and TP to pending orders as well. SL and TP also according to ATR.
Please excuse the bad English via Google Translate.
  • #219
  • Sep 7, 2020 12:52pm Sep 7, 2020 12:52pm
Forex Trading Room September 7, 2020

Here's today's recording Forex Trading Room Session.

In today's trading room session, we analyzed the market from a long term time frame and perspectives.
We discussed EURUSD, GBPUSD, and USDJPY, and We marked up some key levels for the upcoming week.
We search for an intraday opportunity but since today was a bank holiday in the US and Canada the market didn't really provide good setups.

Enjoy!
We are Forex traders - Come trade with us
  • #220
  • Edited 1:56pm Sep 7, 2020 1:02pm | Edited 1:56pm
Quoting LuXing
{quote} Allowed leverage is currently 1:5.
OK, now I understand why some guys feel really happy to profit 20 bucks on a 10K account...
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