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The5ers - Trading & Growth Program

  • #181
  • Edited 9:02pm Sep 3, 2020 8:39pm | Edited 9:02pm
Quoting shyean
Hi Nathan, below stated no changing of plan.{image}

What you showed in the image is about the evaluation plan. This is definitely not what I'm talking about. You didn't understand me.

Evaluation plan/program and funding program are different things.

The funding and growth program only begins after the trader is approved in the evaluation plan.
  • #182
  • Sep 3, 2020 9:40pm Sep 3, 2020 9:40pm
Quoting The5ersTF
How I Got Funded With The5ers! – The5ers review Alexander is now one of our funded traders and is trading with a 52K forex funded account on our platform. His next mission is to reach 10% of profit and double his funds to 104K. For the full interview Watch the video
I watched this last night before i went to bed. I have to say, the idea that you hedge when going over the max exposure part is interesting.

So its not that its forbidden, so to speak. It just hedges whatever goes over the exposure so it nets zero. For example, if I'm in 3 trades totaling 2.75 lots, and the max exposure is 2.65 lots, your system just hedges 0.10 on that last pair that went over the max exposure. My profit on that trade is just slightly less. I like this cause it has room to breathe. My question is, if I had 3 positions totaling 2.75 (max exposure is 2.65), and I close one of the three trades, does your system now automatically close the hedge and release the rest of the position because its now under the exposure? Same for bringing the SL to BE. Would the 0.10 hedge close, leaving an overall slightly less profit from the time the hedge started to when it ended. If that's how it works, that's actually not as bad. It still sucks a pair like AUDNZD is counted the same as EURUSD, or that the exposure is low, but I do like this solution in just hedging whatever went over the exposure value. If this happens often, lets say once a week, lol...there is some consequence to this? I would think not really cause the system slashed the risk.

2nd question, I personally don't hedge BUT for someone that maybe does hedge, does it net zero their exposure?
The best strategy is a profitable one.
  • #183
  • Sep 4, 2020 2:37am Sep 4, 2020 2:37am
Quoting Nathan.Fx
{quote} {quote} I don't think you understand the reason for my question. I don't intend to do multiple evaluation at the same time. Why would anyone do this if it is only possible to have an account once approved? This is definitely not what I'm talking about. The fact is that you offer 6 evaluation plans and two careers (or two growth programs). 3 low risk plans: Target 6%/7% and DD 4%, initial balance from 24k to 52k, Growth program up to 1,280,000 3 extended drawdown plans: Target 14% and DD 8%, initial balance from 21k to 45k, Growth program...

Simple as said: You can run multiple evaluations.
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  • #184
  • Sep 4, 2020 3:04am Sep 4, 2020 3:04am
Quoting Nathan.Fx
You offer 6 evaluation plans. If approved in one of the plans, is it allowed at any time to change plan through a new evaluation? Example: I choose the low risk qualification program for a 40k account. I can pass. But after a few weeks or months I want to switch to another account size and/or drawdown size. So I can do a new evaluation process, by paying the fee obviously. Is there a problem with that?
Instead of over complicating it, just ask the question correctly, cause your follow up was nothing but irrelevant statements and examples.

You can pass the 40k account evaluation, but after a few months of being a portfolio manager, you want to change the the accounts trading parameters to the extended drawdown. Can that be done by just repaying the fee, or fee difference rather than needing to redo the evaluation?....See how simple that was?

Sometimes trying to sound smarter makes you sound dumber. Gil's response is fine. You can have both low and high risk as long as they are running separate strategies, not the same strategies. You think that's not what you asked but it is cause you make no mention of switching over the trading parameters. You say "another account".
The best strategy is a profitable one.
  • #185
  • Edited 3:52am Sep 4, 2020 3:04am | Edited 3:52am
Quoting AnRan
{quote} I watched this last night before i went to bed. I have to say, the idea that you hedge when going over the max exposure part is interesting. So its not that its forbidden, so to speak. It just hedges whatever goes over the exposure so it nets zero. For example, if I'm in 3 trades totaling 2.75 lots, and the max exposure is 2.65 lots, your system just hedges 0.10 on that last pair that went over the max exposure. My profit on that trade is just slightly less. I like this cause it has room to breathe. My question is, if I had 3 positions totaling...
AnRan

Let me clarify, so people will not get it wrong.

We allow hedging, but it affects exposure. Having two opposite positions for the same pair will consider the sum of both lot size. That unless you trail SL beyond BE for one of them.

As for our systems hedge trades breaching the risk management guidelines - this is absolutely forbidden. We hedge because we are tolerant of the traders' activity, and to manage risk from the fund's end.
We do so for not wanting to fail traders who misunderstand the guidelines at first, but it is definitely not intended for traders to use this feature as a strategy.

Hedging has costs, and we don't charge our traders for these costs, as we always give a benefit of a doubt that violations made innocently. This is why we send alerts, and pre-warning notifications if needed.

To conclude everything.

You can hedge.
Hedging will double your used exposure
Violation of risk management - if forbidden and might cost you a disqualification!
Any profit made through risk violation will not be deducted from the total PL. This might affect your drawdown as well.

I have a sense I going to receive zillion questions about this. So before you do, read our T&C it explains all.
The thumb rule is to play it simply and safe: If you push the risk rules, there might be consequences for the account. Just trade by the guidelines and life be easy and straight forward.

If you think this complicates things. Yes, breaking risk rules have many aspects we have to address. The reason for all the complexity is to stay within a fine balance for not failing traders by unaware/innocent violations and the fund's overall risk management.
We are Forex traders - Come trade with us
  • #186
  • Sep 4, 2020 4:00am Sep 4, 2020 4:00am
Quoting The5ersTF
{quote} As for our systems hedge trades breaching the risk management guidelines - this is absolutely forbidden. We hedge because we are tolerant of the traders' activity, and to manage risk from the fund's end. We do so for not wanting to fail traders who misunderstand the guidelines at first, but it is definitely not intended for traders to use this feature as a strategy. Hedging has costs, and we don't charge our traders for these costs, as we always give a benefit of a doubt that violations made innocently. This is why we send alerts, and pre-warning...
I understand 100%. It's a trust in the trader. Leniency should not lead to abuse of that feature. Understood!
The best strategy is a profitable one.
  • #187
  • Edited 6:06am Sep 4, 2020 5:51am | Edited 6:06am
Quoting AnRan
{quote} Instead of over complicating it, just ask the question correctly, cause your follow up was nothing but irrelevant statements and examples. You can pass the 40k account evaluation, but after a few months of being a portfolio manager, you want to change the the accounts trading parameters to the extended drawdown. Can that be done by just repaying the fee, or fee difference rather than needing to redo the evaluation?....See how simple that was? Sometimes trying to sound smarter makes you sound dumber. Gil's response is fine. You can have both...
Are you serious that you really think your question is smart? Well know that this is the dumbest question I've ever seen on this thread.

If you were allowed to switch accounts simply by paying the fee and not making a new evaluation, everyone would choose to start with the cheapest plan, paying only $270 and after passing they would simply pay the fee for an account with the highest balance, without risking losing $550 or $1200 for each attempt.

It is obvious that the company will prefer people to do a new evaluation every time they want to change accounts, because they can fail the evaluation and each new attempt, each new fee paid and lost, is a money gain for the company.
  • #188
  • Sep 4, 2020 6:17am Sep 4, 2020 6:17am
Guys!!!! Please lower the flames
It's OK to ask anything, sometimes things that are clear to one is unclear for another one.
We're here to make things more coherent and understood.

I admit - sometimes I don't accurately get some questions too. So be patient with my answers as well with each other.

High 5
We are Forex traders - Come trade with us
  • #189
  • Sep 4, 2020 12:32pm Sep 4, 2020 12:32pm
Scalping Supply & Demand Zones in Forex Trading Webinar

The markets are ever-changing. Every day the market adopts different behavior characteristics. Trading the daily bias allows traders the agility for fast updating the market view due to its impulsive changes.

Besides analysis and bias, day trading has many more advantages. Being out from the market at the end of the trading session, has a positive effect for the trader’s lifestyle, in terms of less pressure, defined working hours, faster learning and improvement curve, and much more.

In the upcoming series of webinars, we will dive deep into how to analyze day trading opportunities based on Order flow/supply and demand and price action concepts.

Watch the video

If you would like to see Gil Ben Hur's Webinars or Shaul Loika's in Spanish, sign up at Investing.com
We are Forex traders - Come trade with us
  • #190
  • Sep 4, 2020 10:31pm Sep 4, 2020 10:31pm
Quoting Nathan.Fx
Can you answer that? You offer 6 evaluation plans. If approved in one of the plans, is it allowed at any time to change plan through a new evaluation? Example: I choose the low risk qualification program for a 40k account. I can pass. But after a few weeks or months I want to switch to another account size and/or drawdown size. So I can do a new evaluation process, by paying the fee obviously. Is there a problem with that?
Hi Nathan.Fx,

- You can run multiple evaluations.
- You can run 1 funded account only at any given time.
- If you want to switch to another account size and/or drawdown size, you must close (clearing out) the funded account. And then you can do a new evaluation process, by paying the fee obviously.
- You can ask your friends run another evaluations/funded account if you want.

Hope that help.

Have a nice weekend
  • #191
  • Sep 5, 2020 11:10am Sep 5, 2020 11:10am
Quoting NewTrader000
{quote} Hi Nathan.Fx, - You can run multiple evaluations. - You can run 1 funded account only at any given time. - If you want to switch to another account size and/or drawdown size, you must close (clearing out) the funded account. And then you can do a new evaluation process, by paying the fee obviously. - You can ask your friends run another evaluations/funded account if you want. Hope that help. Have a nice weekend
Thank you very much. That was the best answer.
  • #192
  • Sep 5, 2020 9:22pm Sep 5, 2020 9:22pm
Quoting Nathan.Fx
{quote} Thank you very much. That was the best answer.

Nevermind.

Don't hesitate to ask me for any further information.
  • #193
  • Sep 6, 2020 7:56am Sep 6, 2020 7:56am
What’s Your FOREX Edge? Four Steps to Developing Your Trading Edge

The goal of this post is to break down into four critical steps necessary to create your trading edge. During this post, I'll give you some tips from my own experience of over twenty years trading on how to research, test, and trade your edge.

I have experience of trading not just forex but also stocks and options as futures and cryptocurrencies. For a period I day traded futures, and among my long term investments, I have a portfolio of residential rental properties.

The point is, it doesn't matter what market you trade, or even whether you define yourself as a long-term investor or short-term scalper, you must have an edge. You should be able to explain what your edge is before putting any of your capital at risk.

As forex traders, we define our edge as something we have seen in the market. This event has repeated frequently enough for us to think we can develop a trading strategy around it.

Our edge becomes the advantage we have over other traders.

So our trading edge will define what forex pairs to trade and how to trade them. How to trade them will include the entry, exit rules, rules that are triggered when volatility increases or decreases, rules that might trigger when something else unrelated to the instrument you're trading occurs.

Ideally, we want to develop a strategy that can be executed trade after trade without hesitation. Did we lose money on the previous five trades? It doesn't matter; we execute again when the next signal fires.

From these rules, we have a positive expectation that if this edge is traded consistently over the long term, it will lead to profits.

In plain English, that means that we are sure that if we place our order every time we see this event, more often than not, we will have a profitable strategy.

For the full article
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  • #194
  • Sep 6, 2020 11:29am Sep 6, 2020 11:29am
Quoting The5ersTF
And while we so limit exposure (which can be extended with trailing stops) we do compensate this by giving low targets with a high growth rate.
With LuXing case, eliminating one concurrent trade will be the only compromise to trade within The5ers boundaries. If you have the accuracy, you'll be qualified with a minimum of extra effort.

This is smart, but in the wrong sense of the word.
SMART as in Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Realistic and within a set Timeframe.
But not smart as in intelligent.

I will illustrate;

Trader 1 is a swing trader using a RRR of 1:3, approx. win rate of 30%.
On his 13k evaluation account he puts on a first GBPUSD 0.65 lot trade with a stoploss of 50 pips, the trade turns against him and he decides to widen his stoploss to 75 pips. The stop gets hit and he's 3.8% down on his account. This is all within the current rules.

Trader 2 is a scalper using a RRR of 3:1, 2:1 or 1:1 depending on the pair and market situation.
At any stage, he could have 6 trades running * 0.25% risk per trade = total exposure of 1.5%.
Using a 10k+ sample size of live trades, throwing in a bit of bootstrapping and Monte Carlo, he knows that a string of 8 consecutive losing trades is possible but it would be a black swan event.

Last trading day of the week, an example of 6 trades running...

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: Screenshot_1.jpg Size: 534 KB

Now, trader 2 is asked to pick a maximum of 2 out of 6 trades to adhere to the maximum of 0.65 lots.
All trades comply with the same set of robust statistical entry and exit criteria. What if those 2 trades just happen to be the losers ?
From a law of large numbers point of view, it is preferable to take all trades.
To have 6 simultaneous trades running, trader 2 will have to lower the risk per trade to 0.10%...

Let's assume that the 0.10% risk per trade is based on 15 pips and the average win = 5 pips.
On average having a 0.03% gain per trade, trader 2 will have to execute a whopping minimum of 200 trades (with zero losers !) to get to a monthly growth of 6%.

How's that sound ? Not good in my book. SMART, but not smart.

LuXing
Wisdom begins in wonder
  • #195
  • Sep 6, 2020 2:02pm Sep 6, 2020 2:02pm
Quoting NewTrader000
{quote} Nevermind. Don't hesitate to ask me for any further information.
Don't talk with him, he broke my heart.
  • #196
  • Sep 6, 2020 2:05pm Sep 6, 2020 2:05pm
Quoting LuXing
{quote} This is smart, but in the wrong sense of the word. SMART as in Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Realistic and within a set Timeframe. But not smart as in intelligent. I will illustrate; Trader 1 is a swing trader using a RRR of 1:3, approx. win rate of 30%. On his 13k evaluation account he puts on a first GBPUSD 0.65 lot trade with a stoploss of 50 pips, the trade turns against him and he decides to widen his stoploss to 75 pips. The stop gets hit and he's 3.8% down on his account. This is all within the current rules. Trader 2 is a scalper...
Easy, just don't run 6 trades at the same time, scalp and exit, day trade and exit. They'll be good.
  • #197
  • Sep 7, 2020 2:51am Sep 7, 2020 2:51am
Quoting LuXing
{quote} This is smart, but in the wrong sense of the word. SMART as in Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Realistic and within a set Timeframe. But not smart as in intelligent. I will illustrate; Trader 1 is a swing trader using a RRR of 1:3, approx. win rate of 30%. On his 13k evaluation account he puts on a first GBPUSD 0.65 lot trade with a stoploss of 50 pips, the trade turns against him and he decides to widen his stoploss to 75 pips. The stop gets hit and he's 3.8% down on his account. This is all within the current rules. Trader 2 is a scalper...
Hey Luxing

First, I must say I am very impressed with anyone who would go as deep and simulate his own trading concept within the guidelines of the program. I urge any candidate to do the very same.

It is a great thing that you have outlined this in your words because sometimes people relay a wrong understanding of a guideline. In your case, I think you have mixed the term exposure with stoploss. So please allow me to clarify both objectives.

We require a stop loss of 1.5% max per each trade. You could have multiple trades, each could be set on the maximum risk which is 1.5%. So adding 6 trades you can practically risk 9% of the account size.

We also require a maximum exposure. Just for the sake of my argument, exposure is leverage, but in lot size. With a 52K account, you can use up to 0.65 lot size altogether. that has nothing to do with how your stop loss was set for the involved positions.

Understanding that stop loss is not the exposure, once you shift your stop loss beyond breakeven, and make the trade risk free you get additional lot size (exposure) to use.

Hopefully, that changes your perspective on the program.
We are Forex traders - Come trade with us
  • #198
  • Sep 7, 2020 3:11am Sep 7, 2020 3:11am
Quoting fuadik88
{quote} Easy, just don't run 6 trades at the same time, scalp and exit, day trade and exit. They'll be good.
What? His example is perfectly legitimate. In my example, I use 0.50% risk and was already limited. LuXing Has brought up a point I said as well, that opportunity cost is ALSO a risk. Part of trading is trading what you see, even if you personally disagree with it, the charts are talking. When someone ends up picking 2 of the 6 trades, it could end up being the 2 that get their SL hit rather than the 4 that profit. Now, ones own trades become a game of russian roulette.

On top of that, his example uses 6 trades, combining them all together to stay within the max allowable risk of ONE trade (1.5%), and he's still forced to just pick 2 because of the exposure . And you think the problem is because he's taking the opportunities that are arising based on his strategy....I'll tell you now, unequivocally, it is not.

@LuXing, well said. And is that PinYin for 旅行？
The best strategy is a profitable one.
  • #199
  • Edited 4:15am Sep 7, 2020 3:59am | Edited 4:15am
Quoting AnRan
{quote} What? His example is perfectly legitimate. In my example, I use 0.50% risk and was already limited. LuXing Has brought up a point I said as well, that opportunity cost is ALSO a risk. Part of trading is trading what you see, even if you personally disagree with it, the charts are talking. When someone ends up picking 2 of the 6 trades, it could end up being the 2 that get their SL hit rather than the 4 that profit. Now, ones own trades become a game of russian roulette. On top of that, his example uses 6 trades, combining them all together...
6 trades, each risk 1.5%, Each is 0.1Lot
That is 0.6 Lots, so you are good to go on a 52K evaluation account ($13K)

8 Trades, each risk 1.5%. each is 0.08 = 0.64 Lots

That is before you trail your stops for can scale up.

It is all about reversing your math.
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  • #200
  • Sep 7, 2020 5:05am Sep 7, 2020 5:05am
Quoting The5ersTF
{quote} 6 trades, each risk 1.5%, Each is 0.1Lot That is 0.6 Lots, so you are good to go on a 52K evaluation account ($13K) 8 Trades, each risk 1.5%. each is 0.08 = 0.64 Lots That is before you trail your stops for can scale up. It is all reversing your math.
You're using a fixed volume and trying to tie in % risk so the math is distorted. His example states 6 trades, each having a risk of 0.25% with 15 pips SL, totaling 1.5%. He would be forced to choose two of the six is correct. account balance x risk divided by stop loss in pips gives you the volume. Two trades and hes maxed out. This route gives the trader a much clearer defined risk. His example is trading way safer than your example. It even includes consecutively losing 6-8 trades and still remaining at about 1.5% total risk. Not per trade, but all of them together only equal about 1.5%-2% risk total, and he's still limited by the exposure. While your example has him taking those trades at 1.5% risk each.

What you're trying to do is divide the trades up by exposure and then he just has to ensure that each doesn't exceed the max risk per trade. Which is ludicrous. At that point, he can just move his SL freely up and down as long as it stood within the 1.5% risk mentioned. That basically promotes draw down, bad trading habits of moving SL's, and completely skews risk reward ratios.
The best strategy is a profitable one.
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