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  • #1,021
  • Jul 14, 2020 4:50am Jul 14, 2020 4:50am
Hi mahavir,
Ray's 'Tape Reading Course' covers the basic which apply to all markets (including spot FX), but on the Order Flow side of things it is based upon the Micro E-Mini Index Futures.

MT4 doesn't have the features to enable examination of Order Flow the way it is used by the majority of professionals - it is a Broker's platform, not even a good one for retail traders, but convenient for Brokers since itis free and can be supplied with cheap data.

Ray talks about more than 2 lines, however for each market (including Spot FX currency pairs) there is one or 2 main correlated markets (not other currency pairs) which he calls 'Value Lines'. These enable us to have roughly 70% correct bias as to in which direction the main move of the day will be - though we use 'Order Flow' and 'Wholesale Price Levels', Price Action and Volume in order to get the best Entry and Take Profit areas.

All the course sessions (both for the 'Tape Reading course' and for the full course) are recorded and can be viewed whenever is convenient for us.

The Charting/trading platforms that Ray shows are: TradingView (the white background screens) and Sierra Chart (the dark background screens).
TradingView is also used by retail FX educators such as BKForex. We only use it for 'the bigger picture' and for our 'Value Lines'.

For professional style Order Flow, a more sophisticated platform is required (together with a paid for data feed). As alternatives to Sierra Chart NinjaTrader, Jigsaw tools and Bookmap are other platforms used by some of Ray's students.
  • #1,022
  • Jul 14, 2020 6:51am Jul 14, 2020 6:51am
It's no secret that Interest Rates and economic outlooks are the main fundamentals behind the currency markets. Many people know that the yields on sovereign Bonds give a good indication of expectations of both of these.
Tradingview is the best source I know of for being able to plot these on your charts.

I know that most retail Spot FX traders don't use much apart from price based indicators, here is a current TradingView chart of the Euro/USD with bond yield difference and obvious levels marked.

Could you make money from knowing these plus when to trade? - Oh yes, we also learn when to trade, though it is quite obvious once you know how to find it.

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: EU-levels-Yields.png Size: 259 KB
  • #1,023
  • Jul 14, 2020 7:12am Jul 14, 2020 7:12am
However for those who really want to only use MT4, or use a traditional indicator based system of trading, then instead or Sharp Edge (Ray), I suggest you check out The MAX. They have a range of courses, which are improved since I did one because they have found a way of helping avoid the indicator overload that I suffered from.

http://www.maxtradingsystem.com/trading-system/

Or you can find the Sharp Edge courses at https://compassfx.com/
  • #1,024
  • Jul 14, 2020 9:14am Jul 14, 2020 9:14am
Quoting ianf0ster
Hi mahavir, Ray's 'Tape Reading Course' covers the basic which apply to all markets (including spot FX), but on the Order Flow side of things it is based upon the Micro E-Mini Index Futures. MT4 doesn't have the features to enable examination of Order Flow the way it is used by the majority of professionals - it is a Broker's platform, not even a good one for retail traders, but convenient for Brokers since itis free and can be supplied with cheap data. Ray talks about more than 2 lines, however for each market (including Spot FX currency pairs)...
Thanks ianf0ster for clarification.
So it means analysis in Trading View & Sierra chart & actual trades in MT4.
For Retail traders like us : What do you advise?

I know max trading system but more than them I found YTC - Lance Beggs is better so following his course.
  • #1,025
  • Jul 14, 2020 12:22pm Jul 14, 2020 12:22pm
I spent 4 years charting in one platform and executing on my own Broker's platform - first with an MT4 Broker, then with another Broker which had a better platform for trade execution e.g. allowing me to use much closer SL and TP than the MT4 Brokers I knew of. So it can be done, even when the data feed is different and so there is a slight difference in the quoted prices, but is less convenient than using the same platform for (most of) your charting as for execution.

For some reason I thought you were a SpotFX trader. Perhaps I'm wrong, but Lance trades the Nasdaq index, though I have (very rarely) seen him post an FX chart. From what I have seen of his YTC Scalper course, it isn't suitable for an MT4 platform - you will almost certainly require a platform with a DOM. Note that although I subscribe to his emails, I have never purchased any of his products since I didn't feel they were right for me. I also subscribe to the emails from BKForex - but mainly to give me something to write about (and make fun of) in this thread.
  • #1,026
  • Jul 14, 2020 12:48pm Jul 14, 2020 12:48pm
indeed I'm SpotFX trader, Lance trade mainly emini futures but he always give reference of Forex - mainly GBP/USD pair.
I think his concept & methodogy is quite generic so can be applied in MT4. I'll share feedback once I finish the course, it's too much to read :-(
  • #1,027
  • Jul 17, 2020 6:35am Jul 17, 2020 6:35am
Quoting ianf0ster
It's no secret that Interest Rates and economic outlooks are the main fundamentals behind the currency markets. Many people know that the yields on sovereign Bonds give a good indication of expectations of both of these. Tradingview is the best source I know of for being able to plot these on your charts. I know that most retail Spot FX traders don't use much apart from price based indicators, here is a current TradingView chart of the Euro/USD with bond yield difference and obvious levels marked. Could you make money from knowing these plus when...

In the image I have marked 2 places. I was wondering if Ray's student caught these moves especially the marked on the right side (black circle) because I am sure many retail traders with numerous lagging indicators could have caught those move. I ask this because in the marked chart, the value line is not clear as in divergence to the price. Do the full institutional course teach us to trades these moves when the single value line isnt clear like in these marked chart? Would be great to catch these moves as well. It would be great if you could mark these chart as to where long/short entries would have been taken by Ray's student.
Thank you for your time
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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  • #1,028
  • Jul 17, 2020 8:01am Jul 17, 2020 8:01am
I can't go into much detail, but there is more to 'Value Lines' than divergence and there are more than just a single Value Line - just that most of them I'm not allowed to share with non-students.
However in broad brush strokes:

1. Just because there is value, doesn't mean that the commercials (the biggest of institutional traders) will be trading it immediately. They need both sufficient value that they can obtain the size they want on the trade, plus they need to take whatever time it takes in order to accumulate all the trade size.
In the worst case this can take days.
This is why I place those obvious price levels on the chart - they are often called 'wholesale price levels' because their always tends to be more liquidity at them - which means that any commercial interested in accumulating a position is likely to be active in the market when price is around them.

2. So once it is confirmed that Value does exist we are taught to look for areas where Commercials may be interested in dealing and then look for signs that they are actually dealing there - or at least have dealt there in the recent past and so may still be interested in adding at around the same price.

3. The answer is yes, Ray's students (those who trade the E/U at least) did participate in the long trades in the areas that MAX1337 circled.
Because that chart is a 1hr timeframe and there were good short trades available , it is unlikely that any of Ray's students held both long trades for the whole of those trends. That initial short in the first circle from just below 1.1240 would have been taken before the 3 longs off the 1.1200.
Similarly in the second circled area, the long on the London Open (rejecting 1.1250 and 1.1275) , the short of the London 'fix', then after the weekend the short on the London Open, the long on acceptance above 1.1320, the next day's long on the rejection of the London Open's re-test of 1.1320.

There are other trades that some of Ray's student may have taken in those areas, but I'm only including those in the higher volume periods i.e London Open to New York Lunchtime, because during the quieter period Commercial may well be moving price against their intended trade direction in order to pick up more size at better prices when the volume returns.

I hope this makes sense, but is not clear enough that people think they don't need training!
  • #1,029
  • Jul 20, 2020 11:40pm Jul 20, 2020 11:40pm
Quoting ianf0ster
I can't go into much detail, but there is more to 'Value Lines' than divergence and there are more than just a single Value Line - just that most of them I'm not allowed to share with non-students. However in broad brush strokes: 1. Just because there is value, doesn't mean that the commercials (the biggest of institutional traders) will be trading it immediately. They need both sufficient value that they can obtain the size they want on the trade, plus they need to take whatever time it takes in order to accumulate all the trade size. In the worst...
Thank you for detailed answer and your time.
  • #1,030
  • Sep 25, 2020 4:03am Sep 25, 2020 4:03am
Hi Ian,

I am still in the process of reading all the posts in this thread - so far, so good and interesting !! :-)

I was recommended to check out Ray's course by someone on another forum and have been part of the Monday classes since July to test the waters. To make it short, I think that anyone given the opportunity to learn from Ray would be completely stupid to not accept this offer, therefore I will definitely go all in soon and become a full member.

I just haven't figured out yet how on earth I will be able to absorb all the stuff Ray put's out since I work full time... just the Monday classes alone can be challenging to attentively listen to after a long day's work. ;-)
  • #1,031
  • Sep 25, 2020 4:22am Sep 25, 2020 4:22am
I have been attempting to trade using "price action" alone but results have been disappointing so far. Although I don't doubt that there are people trading profitably from a naked chart, I have been finding it very difficult...when the day is long I can interpret all kinds of things into a chart.

That's why I find the concept of "value" as it is introduced by Ray very interesting. I guess being able to read the orderflow also greatly improves your trading when you can fine tune your entries or see big players getting long/short etc. etc. Is there also a way you can read orderflow ( orderbook) in Forex ? I would assume that large institutions would have ways to get a better picture of where liquidity is in FX other than just guessing, using round numbers or looking at support/resistance.

Btw., looking forward to becoming a member of your private group as well in the future !
  • #1,032
  • Sep 25, 2020 9:17am Sep 25, 2020 9:17am
Hi Marsupilami,
Unfortunately the nature of Spot Forex is that there is no centralised exchange. This means that there is no Limit Order Book, and that even getting reasonably representative volumes on each candle isn't straightforward unless your Broker provides a number amalgamated across several Liquidity Providers. So no advanced Orderflow Analysis is possible in the spot Forex markets.
Even without a Limit Order Book, it is usually possible to get a very accurate idea as to where Stop Loss Liquidity exists (all retail traders are taught to put their Stops in the same place). You can also see from price action where large passive liquidity has been revealed in the past. If this liquidity was not exhausted and price returns (assuming no important news events have moved the value), then its likely that there will be liquidity at that level again.

During the US session when the currency Futures volumes are reasonably high, it is possible to use Orderflow Analysis on the equivalent currency future in order to trade the Spot FX.

However the banks tend to trade wherever the volume is good, so even they trade the Spot Forex markets - especially during the European session - which means that they too can't use Advanced Orderflow Analysis for those trades. So they have to rely on 'Value Lines' (e.g. the yields), Price Action, amalgamated Volume, levels at key times (e.g. Session Opens, Closes, 'Fix' times, levels at key economic news times, Round numbers/wholesale levels) and divergences against correlated markets such as similar currency pairs.

Please note that I'm mostly a news trader and don't use much Orderflow Analysis myself.

I hope this helps.
  • #1,033
  • Sep 25, 2020 9:37am Sep 25, 2020 9:37am
[quote=Marsupilami;13184139]I have been attempting to trade using "price action" alone but results have been disappointing so far. Although I don't doubt that there are people trading profitably from a naked chart, I have been finding it very difficult...when the day is long I can interpret all kinds of things into a chart. That's why I find the concept of "value" as it is introduced by Ray very interesting. .... /quote]

Yes, trading is very difficult if you only have one skill/resource at your disposal. The most skilled Price Action traders can make a profit, so can the very best Fundamentals traders, as can the very best Orderflow traders, the very best Correlations traders etc. But it only needs a moderate level of skill to be profitable if you have that moderate level of skill in several of those areas.
  • #1,034
  • Sep 25, 2020 10:22am Sep 25, 2020 10:22am
Quoting Marsupilami
Hi Ian, I am still in the process of reading all the posts in this thread - so far, so good and interesting !! :-) I was recommended to check out Ray's course by someone on another forum and have been part of the Monday classes since July to test the waters. To make it short, I think that anyone given the opportunity to learn from Ray would be completely stupid to not accept this offer, therefore I will definitely go all in soon and become a full member.
Quoting Marsupilami
I just haven't figured out yet how on earth I will be able to absorb all the stuff Ray put's out since I work full time... just the Monday classes alone can be challenging to attentively listen to after a long day's work. ;-)


We describe learning form Ray as 'drinking form a firehose'.
Most potential new students tend to be most interested in Scalping and Orderflow/Tape-reading because they have been told it is lower risk and is how the professionals trade.
Unfortunately for most newer retail traders, particularly those who use the MT4 platform or trade SpotFX or CFDs, they don't even have the vocabulary in order to understand what is happening on the Limit Order Book much less the machinations behind what you see on the Depth Of Market (DOM) or the Limit OrderBook (LOB). Plus they haver no prior experience of the platforms/tools used to do this sort of trading.

For those who aren't currently scalpers, or who find the DOM too fast for them, I suggest concentrating on things you can see on a free/cheap charting platform and economic calendar. So Economic news, Price Action, Supply/Demand (which is what support& resistance really are), Levels where high Volume traded in the past or where it is likely that Liquidity is awaiting price, Value (Trading View Pro+ is the best entry level platform for this - take a free trial and wait until they offer you 50% off the standard price about 3 days from the end of the trial).
That is plenty to learn and can be very profitable without any knowledge of OrderFlow, but the problem for those who work full-time is that they won't see a trade set up very often trading that way. So its an idea to took at Demo/SIM trading this way on the bigger timeframes e.g. 4hrs or 1 day.

Ray has covered a little of most of these non-Orderflow subjects in the Monday classes so you already have a background in them. I know it's tempting to try to thoroughly learn everything that Ray teaches as he teaches it, but it just isn't possible even for those who are retired/ not currently working and so can devote all their time (including weekends) to this. So focus on the parts that you can start to practice right now!
Master those and only then expand your knowledge into another related trading technique.

I tried to learn it all and failed miserably for 3 years studying/trading full time. Even though my news trades were mostly profitable I blew my profits away trying to scalp or use other techniques for which I didn't have the right personality, or didn't have the right tools/resources.

Ray doesn't trade just one set-up, not even one platform he teaches how to trade in general showing examples of different techniques and those same techniques on several different platforms. So it would be impossible to duplicate the chart and platform he is using every Monday class since it may be one or several selected from: Trading View, Sierra Chart, Ninjatrader etc with one of several packages and then one of several chart layouts.
So learn the underlying principles and techniques that you think you may be able to apply in the near future and let the rest pass you by.

Take lots of screenshots and scribbled notes and then mark up the screenshots from your notes and file them by category.
From these try to produce your own documentation of the most important subjects (so you could explain it to your non-trader friend).

I hope this helps
  • #1,035
  • Sep 25, 2020 4:47pm Sep 25, 2020 4:47pm
Quoting ianf0ster
{quote} We describe learning form Ray as 'drinking form a firehose'. Most potential new students tend to be most interested in Scalping and Orderflow/Tape-reading because they have been told it is lower risk and is how the professionals trade. Unfortunately for most newer retail traders, particularly those who use the MT4 platform or trade SpotFX or CFDs, they don't even have the vocabulary in order to understand what is happening on the Limit Order Book much less the machinations behind what you see on the Depth Of Market (DOM) or the Limit OrderBook...
How about gamma scalping using CME data?
  • #1,036
  • Sep 28, 2020 11:16am Sep 28, 2020 11:16am
Quoting lonebladeRGC
{quote} How about gamma scalping using CME data?
Sorry, I don't understand what you are asking here.
Surely you can't be asking if SpotFX traders understand Gamma Scalping, or the data used in order to plan the Gamma Scalping? - Do it too early and you lock in less profit, leave it too late and you you give up potential locked-in profit as the price of the options drops.

Are you asking if Ray covers Gamma Scalping? - He has done in the past, but few of his students are able to do it (needing a large account for trading both Futures and Options plus needing to be checking those markets so frequently per day). More students than gamma scalp use CME Implied Volatility data - though I don't find it of use for my own news trading.
  • #1,037
  • Sep 28, 2020 5:59pm Sep 28, 2020 5:59pm
Quoting ianf0ster
{quote} Sorry, I don't understand what you are asking here. Surely you can't be asking if SpotFX traders understand Gamma Scalping, or the data used in order to plan the Gamma Scalping? - Do it too early and you lock in less profit, leave it too late and you you give up potential locked-in profit as the price of the options drops. Are you asking if Ray covers Gamma Scalping? - He has done in the past, but few of his students are able to do it (needing a large account for trading both Futures and Options plus needing to be checking those markets...
First of all, big thank you for all your posts and kind reply. A pleasure to read through this beautiful thread.

Yes, I am totally committed to master Gamma Scalping and I know Ray should be covering it. I am not sure if one really needs a large account to use gamma scalpers' info to trade SpotFX as I've some mini-success trading it. I've sent a PM to introduce myself.
  • #1,038
  • Sep 29, 2020 6:49am Sep 29, 2020 6:49am
@lonebladeRGC, Perhaps you misunderstood me.
It doesn't need a big account to take directional trades based upon your understanding of what gamma Scalpers are doing or about to do.
It just takes a big account to actually make money by Gamma Scalping, because you need to be dealing in hundreds of contracts in order to make the frequent adjustments needed to do it properly.
  • #1,039
  • Sep 29, 2020 9:52am Sep 29, 2020 9:52am
Quoting ianf0ster
@lonebladeRGC, Perhaps you misunderstood me. It doesn't need a big account to take directional trades based upon your understanding of what gamma Scalpers are doing or about to do. It just takes a big account to actually make money by Gamma Scalping, because you need to be dealing in hundreds of contracts in order to make the frequent adjustments needed to do it properly.
Sorry for misunderstanding. Thanks for enlightening me on that. Yes, I use it for directional bias as you have pointed out perfectly.
  • #1,040
  • Oct 3, 2020 12:38pm Oct 3, 2020 12:38pm
Now a catch-up on interesting stuff from Lance Beggs (of Your Trading Coach).
Unusually, I agree with him completely, we (he versus Ray and I ) just have different methods but the basic idea is the same:

***********************************************************************************************************

Hi Traders,

I operate with a slightly unusual idea regarding trade exits. And this makes it so much easier to capture any re-entry trade opportunity. Maybe this will help you as well.

Happy Trading,

Lance Beggs.

The Mindset Required For Re-Entry

Sometimes a slight change in perspective can make ALL the difference.

The light bulb comes on. And what was once hidden is now blindingly obvious.

It's my hope that today's article may well provide someone with one of these paradigm shifts, as it relates to the mindset required for trade re-entry.

If you operate with wide stops and a single attempt only at each trade idea, then this might not be for you. But for those of you who prefer tight stops and active trade management, like I do, you absolutely must be able to re-enter a position. And to do that effectively, you need the right mindset.

The article comes courtesy of some email Q&A with a trader, who commented as follows:

You always seem to know when to re-enter. I usually don't see the re-entry till it's too late and then I miss the move.


I can promise you I don't always get it right! And I don't always catch a re-entry opportunity.

But further discussion with this trader revealed a significant difference in our thinking as the first trade is exited (regardless of whether it's scratched, stopped out or exited at the target):
Attached Image

It's a subtle difference. But here's why it is important:
Attached Image

Attached Image


I trade with a slightly unusual idea regarding trade exits.

Most traders will tell you that the trade is over when your exit order executes and your position is flat. I disagree.

When you're flat and have no risk in the markets, you're often able to see the market in a much clearer way. So take advantage of this.

Here's how an exit works:

  1. Your position is flat either through scratching the position or execution of a stop or target order.
  2. Do not relax focus. Reassess now with a clear mind and no risk exposure. Is the exit premature? Is the premise still valid?
  3. If the trade idea is no longer valid, ONLY THEN IS THE TRADE OVER.
  4. If the trade idea is still valid, then find a way to re-enter.


What does "find a way to re-enter" mean?

It's not always as simple as just hitting buy or sell again, at market.

All my standard YTC Price Action Trader criteria for entry must still be valid (for a summary see Vol 3, Ch 4, P 81).

In particular a clear and obvious new place for the stop. And some kind of lower timeframe trigger pattern.

Let's walk through some trades that didn't quite go to plan.

Attached Image

No
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