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  • #2,141
  • Jul 4, 2020 7:03pm Jul 4, 2020 7:03pm
Quoting Swing4Fence
{quote} Max 300k. See SKLearn’s response. If one live account breaks rules, there is a backup to replace. I’ve heard others decline the challenge refund on 1st initial payout, for the purpose of purchasing another challenge to have as a backup in case of failure (correct me if wrong, but I understand unlimited challenges purchased/passed are allowed - which seems a smart Plan B). However, I wonder how a failed account would impact overall scaling progress?
I am not quite clear on that question, but try to give my response...

per FTMO the violation is hard stop on the account.
does not matter how much it has in it, once violated the rules, the account has gone.

the rule is, one trader (or trading strategy) can have a maximum capital allocation of $300K prior to scaling up of the account.

I opted to have one 200k and one 100k with a backup 100k.
Determination + Persistence = Success
  • #2,142
  • Jul 4, 2020 7:06pm Jul 4, 2020 7:06pm
Quoting SKLearn
{quote} I am not quite clear on that question, but try to give my response... per FTMO the violation is hard stop on the account. does not matter how much it has in it, once violated the rules, the account has gone.
Got it. So the 2 separate accounts would likely continue scaling up if they met the monthly threshold. Thanks mate!
  • #2,143
  • Jul 4, 2020 10:20pm Jul 4, 2020 10:20pm
Quoting Swing4Fence
{quote} Max 300k. See SKLearn’s response. If one live account breaks rules, there is a backup to replace. I’ve heard others decline the challenge refund on 1st initial payout, for the purpose of purchasing another challenge to have as a backup in case of failure (correct me if wrong, but I understand unlimited challenges purchased/passed are allowed - which seems to be a smart Plan B). However, I wonder how a failed account would impact overall scaling progress? My assumption is each account treated individually, which may present risk combining...
Yes still my plan also to combine all 3 by 100k accounts into one by master 300k account.

I view a single master account as simpler to manage.

Although if you lose the master account it's gone in one swift move whereas if you kept the 100k accounts separate and traded at least 2 different strategies across the 3 accounts you might lose control of 1 but still have 2 active.

What I like though is the fact that I have 5% of 300k to play with on a daily basis and Max Loss of 10% of 300k.

15000 Max Daily Loss as opposed to just 5k.
30000 Max Loss as opposed to just 10k.

So one has much larger risk range in $ terms to play within.

Not a bad idea to throw in a few more backup challenges either earlier on or after first successful profit share.

In fact my approach might be to do an additional 3 by 100k challenges and if successful keep them as part of a Plan B just in case the 300k account was to meet with grief I can almost immediately start another 300k master account and continue where I left off.

Smart move would be to do the additional challenges with gained trading profits assuming that a 300k funded account is already active!

I think if one of the 3 fail then that account is dead after any profit sharing is completed.

The other 2 by 100k accounts would continue to scale independently growing at 25% every 4 months once trading objectives are met including profit target of at least 10% is met over the valid 4 month period.

A 100k account would scale to 300k in about 2 years 8 months.

A 300k account would scale to 1050000 in about 3 years 4 months.

Ofcourse, actual account equity could be much higher depending on profit share withdrawals and generated profit.

ps. I notice that another firm FC is showing a one time verification for 400k ($1399) however, trading objectives appear to be much more restrictive.

Good trading,

Masterrmind ..........
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
  • #2,144
  • Jul 5, 2020 1:01am Jul 5, 2020 1:01am
Quoting Masterrmind
{quote} A 100k account would scale to 300k in about 2 years 8 months. A 300k account would scale to 1050000 in about 3 years 4 months. Ofcourse, actual account equity could be much higher depending on profit share withdrawals and generated profit.
Putting into real numbers like you did provided great clarity. The overall timeframe & potential equity is very motivating. Thank you Masterrmind!
  • #2,145
  • Jul 5, 2020 2:00am Jul 5, 2020 2:00am
Quoting Swing4Fence
{quote} Putting into real numbers like you did provided great clarity. The overall timeframe & potential equity is very motivating. Thank you Masterrmind!
Yes the big kicker in all this is how much smaller the monthly gain needs to be to maintain the same standard of living on a well funded account as opposed to one much smaller.

For example,

If one's monthly income could be considered as very comfortable at 10% gain per month on a 100k account then on a 300k account one might shoot for half the monthly gain of 5% and still generate 50% more income per month.

Only difference is capital and lot sizing over same trade count.

Identical strategy can be used.

Masterrmind .........
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
  • #2,146
  • Jul 5, 2020 7:13am Jul 5, 2020 7:13am
Quoting SKLearn
I cleared 4 Verifications. Looking forward to the real challenge. also cleared 5%ers...waiting for the days to pass. {image} {image}
Incredible stuff - well done indeed!

I'm actually wondering if the FTMO funded account is truly a live funded account? In other words one is given $300k to trade of real money?? I do find it a amazing that any person or company is going to risk $300000 in the hands of a small RT in a market where sudden spikes do occur. Remember the CHF spike of a few years ago and the JPY spike last year. Also FTMO does not stipulate the placing of stop loss on every trade.

Are we sure the the "live" account is not still the demo - in which case the only risk to FTMO is only ever going to be your daily loss limit?

Just wondering!
  • #2,147
  • Jul 5, 2020 8:24am Jul 5, 2020 8:24am
Quoting Mtinifx
{quote} Incredible stuff - well done indeed! I'm actually wondering if the FTMO funded account is truly a live funded account? In other words one is given $300k to trade of real money?? I do find it a amazing that any person or company is going to risk $300000 in the hands of a small RT in a market where sudden spikes do occur. Remember the CHF spike of a few years ago and the JPY spike last year. Also FTMO does not stipulate the placing of stop loss on every trade. Are we sure the the "live" account is not still the demo...
You remain on demo, even when you go live. They just copy your trades on to their live account I believe.
  • #2,148
  • Jul 5, 2020 8:31am Jul 5, 2020 8:31am
Quoting Masterrmind
{quote} Yes still my plan also to combine all 3 by 100k accounts into one by master 300k account. I view a single master account as simpler to manage. Although if you lose the master account it's gone in one swift move whereas if you kept the 100k accounts separate and traded at least 2 different strategies across the 3 accounts you might lose control of 1 but still have 2 active. What I like though is the fact that I have 5% of 300k to play with on a daily basis and Max Loss of 10% of 300k. 15000 Max Daily Loss as opposed to just 5k. 30000 Max...
Another strategy could be to team up with someone. So that you are both operating 300k each and splitting profits equally. If one account blows up, you still have the other 300k account (operated by the second person, on a different strategy), which means you are still somewhat in the game whilst trying to pass the tests again. It also diversifies risk massively but does mean reliance on the honesty/professionalism of the other party to this agreement.
  • #2,149
  • Jul 5, 2020 8:38am Jul 5, 2020 8:38am
Quoting Mtinifx
{quote} Incredible stuff - well done indeed!
Thank you
Determination + Persistence = Success
  • #2,150
  • Jul 5, 2020 9:16am Jul 5, 2020 9:16am
Quoting ia1979
{quote} Another strategy could be to team up with someone. So that you are both operating 300k each and splitting profits equally. If one account blows up, you still have the other 300k account (operated by the second person, on a different strategy), which means you are still somewhat in the game whilst trying to pass the tests again. It also diversifies risk massively but does mean reliance on the honesty/professionalism of the other party to this agreement.
I'm not sure exactly what you are implying as regards to teaming up.

I can diversify risk myself by being able to trade several different strategies however, I would only be able to trade the one 300k account.

If I have the 3 extra verifications completed then I would simply trade them myself.

In any case I am yet to even start a challenge so I have my work cut out for me

Masterrmind ..........
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
  • #2,151
  • Jul 5, 2020 9:44am Jul 5, 2020 9:44am
Quoting Masterrmind
{quote} I'm not sure exactly what you are implying as regards to teaming up. I can diversify risk myself by being able to trade several different strategies however, I would only be able to trade the one 300k account. If I have the 3 extra verifications completed then I would simply trade them myself. In any case I am yet to even start a challenge so I have my work cut out for me Masterrmind ..........
I was meaning 2 people could manage 600k between them, and use different strategies. But it would be a true partnership, so both profits and losses would have to be split. That way even if 1 person managed to blow up one set of 300k, the partnership still has another 300k running and albeit profits would get smaller, you remain in the game so to speak. And then you can do your tests again. Or you can just do what SKLearn has done and have a 200k account, and a 100k account. My thinking was 2 heads are better than one. Horses for courses I guess.
  • #2,152
  • Jul 5, 2020 11:46am Jul 5, 2020 11:46am
Quoting ia1979
{quote} I was meaning 2 people could manage 600k between them, and use different strategies. But it would be a true partnership, so both profits and losses would have to be split. That way even if 1 person managed to blow up one set of 300k, the partnership still has another 300k running and albeit profits would get smaller, you remain in the game so to speak. And then you can do your tests again. Or you can just do what SKLearn has done and have a 200k account, and a 100k account. My thinking was 2 heads are better than one. Horses for courses...
this only kinda sound reasonable if one is paying for the challenge of the other. otherwise, I see no need for someone to bear the risk of someone's failure. Each one should carry their own cross.

If you have a friend who you think is equally a good trader, then you can pay for them to take the challenge with the promise of shared reward, even better if their trading style is different from yours. That would be a good hedge.
  • #2,153
  • Jul 5, 2020 1:59pm Jul 5, 2020 1:59pm
Quoting ia1979
{quote} You remain on demo, even when you go live. They just copy your trades on to their live account I believe.
Surely their maximum risk is only ever going to be your daily loss limit. FTMO don't really make it clear on their website as far as I can see but I was looking at the FAQ's on one of their competitor's website. The question:
WHERE DOES THE CAPITAL COME FROM FOR THE FUNDED ACCOUNTS?
Answer: The adequate reserve of capital for Professional accounts come from Challenge fees and from private investors looking for signals

I'm sure the business model is basically the same with all of these Prop companies? (by the way, I doubt if they get much money from "private investors looking for signals"!)
  • #2,154
  • Jul 5, 2020 2:33pm Jul 5, 2020 2:33pm
Quoting Mtinifx
{quote} Surely their maximum risk is only ever going to be your daily loss limit. FTMO don't really make it clear on their website as far as I can see but I was looking at the FAQ's on one of their competitor's website. The question: WHERE DOES THE CAPITAL COME FROM FOR THE FUNDED ACCOUNTS? Answer: The adequate reserve of capital for Professional accounts come from Challenge fees and from private investors looking for signals I'm sure the business model is basically the same with all of these...
it is clear.
it has been discussed.
it takes less than 2 min to find.
https://ftmo.com/en/terms-conditions/
why the guesswork?

Special account (“ FTMO Funded Account”)

  1. The Member is entitled to enter into a Contract on managing a Special Demo Account with the Company in order to enter into an agreement, the subject of which shall be the management of a Special Demo Account if during the period when services were provided, the member has met the conditions listed in Article 3.2 of these conditions and the conditions listed in Article 5.1, excluding the last point which is:

    1. The Member has shown profit upon closure on all of the fictional trade positions conducted on their Demo Account at least in the amount of 5% of the initial capital, or 10% if it is in a variant “Aggressive”.

  2. The legal form of the Contract on Management of the Special Demo Account, as well as its contents are chosen according to the Company's discretion. The offer for entering the Contract on Management of the Special Demo Account with the Company shall be submitted to the Member without undue delay after the expiry of the period according to Articles 4 and 5 of these Conditions.
  3. The Association has the right to refuse to conclude the proposal of a contract with the Member on entering into the Contract on Management of the Special Demo Account with the Member, if during the period when services are provided, the Member conducted trades on the Demo Account contrary to how trades are to be conducted on the FOREX market or other financial markets or in a way that constitutes legitimate concerns that the Association may suffer financial or other damage due to the Member's activities. In such case, the Association shall not return the Member Fee paid for the corresponding variant of the Demo Account to the Member.

there is always, always another trade!!
  • #2,155
  • Jul 5, 2020 5:52pm Jul 5, 2020 5:52pm
FTMO Accounts
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: Screenshot1.png Size: 19 KB
Determination + Persistence = Success
  • #2,156
  • Jul 5, 2020 6:04pm Jul 5, 2020 6:04pm
Quoting SKLearn
FTMO Accounts {image}
SKLearn, I like your style, very profitable, how long have you been improving your current strategy?
Be happy, friendly, humble and winner!!
  • #2,157
  • Jul 6, 2020 2:38am Jul 6, 2020 2:38am
Quoting profitfarmer
{quote} it is clear. it has been discussed. it takes less than 2 min to find. https://ftmo.com/en/terms-conditions/ why the guesswork? Special account (“ FTMO Funded Account”) The Member is entitled to enter into a Contract on managing a Special Demo Account with the Company in order to enter into an agreement, the subject of which shall be the management of a Special Demo Account if during the period when services were provided, the member has met the conditions listed in Article 3.2 of these conditions and the conditions listed in Article...

Ha ha - very clear mate - as clear as mud! But yes indeed one is still trading a demo - of course no one is going to take that sort of risk with real money

But we were actually discussed the source of the money (70/30 profit split) which is split between FTMO and the trader. Your quote does not answer that question but the money paid to the trader (if he/she evenyually shows a profit) obviously comes from challenge fees.

And sorry, your maximum daily loss is not their loss of course! If one exceeds it one is out of the game but of course they have lost nothing because you're trading a demo account. Ding dong, I only just thought of that
  • #2,158
  • Jul 6, 2020 3:13am Jul 6, 2020 3:13am
Quoting Mtinifx
{quote} Ha ha - very clear mate - as clear as mud! But yes indeed one is still trading a demo - of course no one is going to take that sort of risk with real money But we were actually discussed the source of the money (70/30 profit split) which is split between FTMO and the trader. Your quote does not answer that question but the money paid to the trader (if he/she evenyually shows a profit) obviously comes from challenge fees. And sorry, your maximum daily loss is not their loss of course! If one exceeds it one is out of the game but of...


you are conflating issues. They will let traders manage a demo account but that should be mirroring on some real account with some funds of some sort. The reason for the demo account is because of regulation. They are not brokers and don't have the license for that and i believe assigning demo account to traders who pass the challenge is a way to stay within their regulatory limits.

But surely, those trades are mirrored in some real accounts with some funds to cover the cost of paying profits, I believe.

Unless of course you mean there's enough people signing up for the challenge that, fees from failed participants is enough to pay the running expense of FTMO and the profits from real accounts. It could be that as I don't know the internal workings of FTMO, but I highly doubt that's the sole source of their income.
  • #2,159
  • Edited 3:35am Jul 6, 2020 3:24am | Edited 3:35am
with FTMO,
the max one can lose is 600 some dollars if failed.
the same will be refunded with the first month profit; any money made on top of that is profit.

it is way better than funding an offshore broker 600usd with 1:1000 leverage. Hello?

again, if one believes they are not legit, yep.. has the right to believe so.

personally, I believe there are aliens living in this world.
Determination + Persistence = Success
  • #2,160
  • Edited 5:36am Jul 6, 2020 3:27am | Edited 5:36am
Quoting newegg
{quote} you are conflating issues. They will let traders manage a demo account but that should be mirroring on some real account with some funds of some sort. The reason for the demo account is because of regulation. They are not brokers and don't have the license for that and i believe assigning demo account to traders who pass the challenge is a way to stay within their regulatory limits. But surely, those trades are mirrored in some real accounts with some funds to cover the cost of paying profits, I believe. Unless of course you mean there's...
Question is if they use that traders signals for have some "company" accounts. Its a win win for them. They get the best traders accounts and get 100% profit while trader only get commission of one. I don't know if somebody asked about this before. Maybe they have some clients but seeing they don't have limit in how many traders they can fund maybe the main client is FTMO itself
Try don't lose pants never...
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