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  • #8,041
  • May 8, 2020 8:57am May 8, 2020 8:57am
Quoting Ll1979
{quote} What is the price movement per tick for 1 contract ? ... $10? {image} {image}
Should be / 1 contract is 1000 barrels.
Focus.
  • #8,042
  • May 8, 2020 9:05am May 8, 2020 9:05am
Quoting Marco-Kanto
{quote} Should be / 1 contract is 1000 barrels.
Depends on your broker my CFD broker offers a 100 barrels a contract.
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persistence and determination alone are omnipotent
  • #8,043
  • May 8, 2020 9:10am May 8, 2020 9:10am
Quoting Ll1979
{quote} Depends on your broker my CFD broker offers a 100 barrels a contract. {image}
Mine too - I thought you meant CME/NYMEX contracts
Focus.
  • #8,044
  • May 8, 2020 9:26am May 8, 2020 9:26am
Quoting Marco-Kanto
{quote} Mine too - I thought you meant CME/NYMEX contracts
Was curious what tonny47 contract specs are. I am only trading futures best decision ever (no more wide spreads or vague swaps) but it requires a lot more money. From time to time i trade some CFDs mostly gold since i can trade it on my mobile phone.
persistence and determination alone are omnipotent
  • #8,045
  • May 8, 2020 10:21am May 8, 2020 10:21am
Friday living up to its name with the sideways chop. would be nice if they gave us a nice surprise with a big move
  • #8,046
  • May 8, 2020 10:40am May 8, 2020 10:40am
Quoting Ll1979
{quote} WTF that's even more than the CMEgroup margins and my future broker. What is the price movement per tick for 1 contract ? ... $10? {image} {image}
yes, $10

are those quotes the same for short positions? My screenshot is showing for shorts which is horrendous. you are basically trading without any leverage.

for long its just under 9k which is still a lot

https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/index.php?f=26662
  • #8,047
  • May 8, 2020 10:42am May 8, 2020 10:42am
Quoting Ll1979
{quote} Was curious what tonny47 contract specs are. I am only trading futures best decision ever (no more wide spreads or vague swaps) but it requires a lot more money. From time to time i trade some CFDs mostly gold since i can trade it on my mobile phone.
i am getting fed up with CFDs also. unreliable
  • #8,048
  • May 8, 2020 10:47am May 8, 2020 10:47am
had a bad day yesterday. entered number of shorts right at the top, after it went in my favour around 40 cents, i moved SL to break even. stopped out, price went against me only 5-6 cents before falling by $3.

short again since early morning at around 24.50, very choppy but still hoping to see break to the downside. although worried about rigs report in hour or so. generally seemed to be pushing the price higher over the past few weeks (at the same time, market is not reacting to positive news as much - ie oil build up was quite a lot better than forecast few days back but not much of a push up).
  • #8,049
  • May 8, 2020 11:54am May 8, 2020 11:54am
Quoting tonny47
{quote} yes, $10 are those quotes the same for short positions? My screenshot is showing for shorts which is horrendous. you are basically trading without any leverage. for long its just under 9k which is still a lot https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/index.php?f=26662
i guess they are the same. What about spreads . What's your average spread?

You also could trade the brent CFD with less margin.
persistence and determination alone are omnipotent
  • #8,050
  • Edited 12:21pm May 8, 2020 12:00pm | Edited 12:21pm
Margin requirements are a formula. Without checking (I did quite some years ago in a moment of boredom), it goes something like this, but don't quote me, you'd have to look up what is current.

Volatility times daily range.

Now, volatility is just that. If it is 100%, about what crude is, and has been higher in recent days {edit - I just checked a volatility measure I calculate, and it was between 350 and 400% in the days after 20 April}, then that is immediately about 4 grand or so (just eyeballing recent daily ranges). Maybe more.

Then they do the standard deviation of things, so on top of the average they plonk that extra margin, I dunno, 2 or 3 SD?, which is prudent.

On top of that they plonk a margin of extra safety for the unknown, like some sheikh getting blown up or something like running out of storage. Shit happens sometimes.

Each exchange may be different, and may have different methodologies for different things and contract months.

I am always a bit puzzled by issues relating to what appears excessive margin requirements. It is a two way street. It seeks to protect both the industry and traders; same with a number of other things like quantity limits. Should this impinge on the quantity you wish to trade, it is a good thing, IMO. Go read money management 101.

So called professionals hire quants with PhDs in maths to manage their risk exposure, and even they go belly up. Anyone remember the names of those banks from a decade ago, or the icing on the cake, Long-Term Capital Management Fund?
  • #8,051
  • May 8, 2020 12:42pm May 8, 2020 12:42pm
Quoting Ll1979
{quote} i guess they are the same. What about spreads . What's your average spread? You also could trade the brent CFD with less margin.
spread seems to be 3 ticks (occasionally 2) on interactive brokers from what i have seen plus there is going to be probably commission of around $5-7 (didn't trade with them yet).

my cfd broker xtiusd is typically 4 ticks but i have seen 15-16 around the dates when prices went negative. they had wti futures cfds as well with 3 ticks spread and no commission.

tried brent but not quite the same. but traded it before
  • #8,052
  • May 8, 2020 12:52pm May 8, 2020 12:52pm
Quoting LloydOz
Margin requirements are a formula. Without checking (I did quite some years ago in a moment of boredom), it goes something like this, but don't quote me, you'd have to look up what is current. Volatility times daily range. Now, volatility is just that. If it is 100%, about what crude is, and has been higher in recent days {edit - I just checked a volatility measure I calculate, and it was between 350 and 400% in the days after 20 April}, then that is immediately about 4 grand or so (just eyeballing recent daily ranges). Maybe more. Then they do...
its largely about protecting themselves (brokers). If traders trade smaller, they make smaller commission. But its better safe than sorry for them. Interactive Brokers have lost $88 mil on negative oil prices. Not material for them considering how much they make each year but not ideal.

I dont think you should need $16+ in your account to trade something that is trading at $24.

your logic how its calculated sounds reasonable though.
  • #8,053
  • May 8, 2020 12:53pm May 8, 2020 12:53pm
Quoting Ll1979
{quote} i guess they are the same. What about spreads . What's your average spread? You also could trade the brent CFD with less margin.
what is your average spread anyway?
  • #8,054
  • May 8, 2020 1:23pm May 8, 2020 1:23pm
Quoting tonny47
{quote} spread seems to be 3 ticks (occasionally 2) on interactive brokers from what i have seen plus there is going to be probably commission of around $5-7 (didn't trade with them yet). my cfd broker xtiusd is typically 4 ticks but i have seen 15-16 around the dates when prices went negative. they had wti futures cfds as well with 3 ticks spread and no commission. tried brent but not quite the same. but traded it before
Commissions are normally a bit higher when trading CL futures compared to CFDs but they offer tight spreads (normally 1 tick) with a tick being $10 a contract you'll save a few ticks ($30) on a roundtrip. Then that commission isn't that bad after all.

But trading futures require more money, data subscriptions and software licenses etc. So one have to do some homework before jumping in. If you consider trading futures let me know i'll help you out
persistence and determination alone are omnipotent
  • #8,055
  • May 8, 2020 1:24pm May 8, 2020 1:24pm
Quoting tonny47
{quote} what is your average spread anyway?
current CL contract
Attached Image
persistence and determination alone are omnipotent
  • #8,056
  • May 8, 2020 1:25pm May 8, 2020 1:25pm
Quoting Kwame Freder
May take a long in hopes it revisits the top of the range or more

it could go higher but i'm out
  • #8,057
  • May 8, 2020 1:30pm May 8, 2020 1:30pm
German Towns To Reimpose Shutdowns Over Virus Clusters

The way reopening is going I don't see US government issuing further lockdowns. They are determined to reopen aggressively. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it doesn't seem like this administration would support a lockdown. Anything could happen.
We must learn who is gold, and who is gold plated
EventsTrader Live All Time Return: 54.4%
  • #8,058
  • May 8, 2020 1:39pm May 8, 2020 1:39pm
Quoting EventsTrader
German Towns To Reimpose Shutdowns Over Virus Clusters The way reopening is going I don't see US government issuing further lockdowns. They are determined to reopen aggressively. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it doesn't seem like this administration would support a lockdown. Anything could happen.
Second wave would be devastating to the confidence of people.
persistence and determination alone are omnipotent
  • #8,059
  • May 8, 2020 1:43pm May 8, 2020 1:43pm
Quoting Ll1979
{quote} Second wave would be devastating to the confidence of people.
Agreed. It would be enough to further suppress travel and other economic activity that WTI is heavily dependent on.
We must learn who is gold, and who is gold plated
EventsTrader Live All Time Return: 54.4%
  • #8,060
  • May 8, 2020 1:48pm May 8, 2020 1:48pm
Quoting EventsTrader
German Towns To Reimpose Shutdowns Over Virus Clusters The way reopening is going I don't see US government issuing further lockdowns. They are determined to reopen aggressively. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it doesn't seem like this administration would support a lockdown. Anything could happen.
I'm not sure if we get accurate news on TV here in the sticks, but I seem to recall that American citizens are openly protesting about lockdowns? Gawd, it makes news here in Australia of all places, and I rarely watch it. I am no gambling man and nor am I a politician or psychologist, so I wish to not speculate on the influence that may have on the minds of decision makers, but if I were I would be inclined to agree with you.

If that happens, how the rest of the world interprets that will be interesting.
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