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Trading Equipment (Hardware, Software)

  • #21
  • Edited 4:07pm Mar 10, 2020 2:34pm | Edited 4:07pm
Quoting EF5
{quote} That's it, I'm getting a X1 carbon. It looks perfect. {quote} I use one pretty often. Bloomberg terminals are a very powerful machine, but it's such a shame Bloomberg never upgraded the interface. If they kept up with the times they'd have an amazing product, but they left their customers with an interface that looks like it's from the 1980s.
Yea, me too, most probably.. but will most likely take he 7th gen, if not for other, for one reason! They started (in 8th gen) to make it more "show off" (now that its reputation/image is even better), like putting that X1 in the wrong place, if you ask me and many others! 7th seem to be the sweet spot, so newer is not always better for me.. Not to mention almost crazy prices one get get 7th gen today... Also have to be careful with specs... For me the WEIGHT is the priority and BAT... if possible as combo Because what is important to me at mobile so that I do not miss some important trades... do not expect to do any heavy modelling on the go.. but if I would, could do computing over remote/cloud etc... If helps.. BTW as for phones, loved the iphone 7 (seems to be the lucky number)... with that JET BLACK, do not like to WIPE the phone (iphone 8 black etc) all the time. Also hate the ever increasing weight of the phones... in general.. hope there will 150g or below options still
Btw some (normal) "think"s... show massive fingerprints even though they are MATT/non-shine black which was like wtf.. and the older ones appear to be the same and no finger prints (plastic vs metal etc..., but haven't tested that on carbon yet, but, maybe the carbon look version helps - would prefer full matt black though, want to find out, anyway, appears only problem when new, hopefully..)... so those are the details you see in REAL, little details... Therefore I was asking people here (about the trading tools; from desk, lap to mobile) for first hands experience because devil is in the details they say
Can you afford to take that chance?
  • #22
  • Mar 25, 2020 3:20pm Mar 25, 2020 3:20pm
Have been checking some new equipment, even lighter laptops... some fine new tools from a well known brands... I just prefer to stick to tested things, but always looking for better tools of course...

As for laptops, being light/thin, coupled with longest bat life (for the size) is an absolute priority... but reliability etc... is next thing, also love the build quality, since I tend to "use" them too much sometimes... Just love them to be at least little robust Some comparison I found is not far off from what I have been observing... BTW I prefer a full keyboard, for now.. Do not like that touchscreen or attachable versions... So I think I would love X1 the most, although would not mind checking for some even lighter alternatives, if possible Any good recommendations?

As for phones, on the good side is that iphone 8 is still in sales... and since I mentioned the weight of it is important to me, I might stack myself up before they go out... I think they will be in sales for like another year or so, not sure... My fav broker, for at least one style/strategy works best in iOS... but for later, I think I will switch to some other brands, because as said, around 150g seems to be the sweet spot for me, as having the optimal combination of screen, battery, practicality... and no wrist pain at all (at heavy use) Checking this emerging brand... and some restored ones.. but I would just love to stick with more known brands and with the model that has been tested as much as possible, jut in order not to worry about some battery issues (even though that can happen even to the most known brands), but I think would stick to global players... Have been testing even with some lesser known brands that provided interesting experience, at least for trading... but still... just love the drilled things in order not to worry if it will work at critical times, either in trading or with e-tickets

Desktops/servers... Btw have been checking with this liquid cooling options and some are very good, just low the low/no-noise.. but the downside is the maintenance of the cooling liquid... Anyone has any experience with this? I prefer to use web/cloud as much us possible but still love to have some on-promise, just in case

Wireless things... as I have mentioned, if you trade the news, should really stick to cable things... since lag/latency of the wireless mouse for example, can eat your profits even

Wearables (e-watch).. Haven't tested wearables, meaning, watch... for trading.. but I think it should be good, at least for notifications + having as a real phone backup in case of emergency... because yeah, mobile phone can go low on bat exactly when you need it, happened to me many times in the past... Noticed that some brokers already provide trading experience for e-watch. Just for entering/exiting the trades for example... Anyone has any experience with this? As a stand-alone watch trade entry/exit, without the need for a mobile phone nearby? Meaning as a real additional backup...

BTW parallel (desktop/server+mobile) setup saved my ass quite some times when there was any tech/net problems with "main" comp That is why I also like web-based things, for trader execution or exit... To have it in parallel. to either enter or quit, in time... For analysis and all, the more "stationary", the better... Well yeah mobile has some latency issues but for "real" trading that is not so problematic, if at all Could be for news trading or even more "technical" strategies
Can you afford to take that chance?
  • #23
  • Mar 26, 2020 9:18am Mar 26, 2020 9:18am
Quoting dkrock
I don't trade support/resistance, so I do not have to see the last 50 years of market activity. I use indicators to trade the LIVE market, so the right hand side is all I need to see. If you also trade like that, you might consider using my layout. I trade multiple time frames, but rather than using multiple screens to display a bunch of irrelevant data, I converge them onto one monitor for each currency pair. This layout saves me monitor space, eye strain, and lessens my anxiety during data analysis. While I understand this is not hardware nor...
Nice setup, tnx... Yeah I agree... one monitor could be easily enough. But I just prefer the more monitors. not for the actual display all the time but to have some monitors/alerts in the background (with auto-alarms), just to be sure everything is "nominal"

Do you have any inputs also about the desk(top)/laptop or mobile hardware? Would appreciate..

BTW I am flirting with this FOLD versions of smartphones but afraid the weight would kill it for me...
Still find some rather light smartphone+laptop combo to be the best.

BTW I love something like this, just for the feel of it if nothing else... I also find that the more serious one is as a trader, everything counts... Like internet connection quality, latency, failover status.. Some alert news, you name it But on the go, smartphone+laptop wins hands-down to me... at least after I do my main analysis... then I can trade by mobile only... as long as the analysis is valid...

Inserted Video
Can you afford to take that chance?
  • #24
  • Mar 27, 2020 2:38am Mar 27, 2020 2:38am
Most important for me:
4 K big Monitors. (3 of them)
Good graphic and sound card.
Good speakers.
  • #25
  • Mar 27, 2020 12:05pm Mar 27, 2020 12:05pm
Quoting cuchuflito
Most important for me: 4 K big Monitors. (3 of them) Good graphic and sound card. Good speakers.
What about this 4K that some people complain? Also what about on the road? Any good mobile setup you found best?

There seems to be many new options this days... folds, watches, some "lego" style combinations, but I still prefer about 150g smartphone + light 14" laptop (with "real" keyboard" to be the best combo on the road; of course both with access to cloud/server/RD if needed), what do you think?
Can you afford to take that chance?
  • #26
  • Edited 2:31pm Mar 27, 2020 2:17pm | Edited 2:31pm
Quoting HeyYou
{quote} hahaha A GAMING PC FOR TRADING ! how do you come up with these things Auric ohh I love gaming PCs.. here's my old one at work: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xzgmrm
Short answer, by PROs Also check the setup/specs of the fellow trader that posted his desktop, notice the graphic card, RAM? Reminds you of something?

Don't let this "gaming" (association) fool you. Ask yourself what is the best trading comp (for active trading, specially news/events etc)? What does it have in common with gaming PC/laptop spec? Maybe, huge MEMORY and crazy graphic card? There are many articles on this but I didn't want to bring (additional) commercials (already feel bad that it seems I am promoting X1 much)...
I would recommend you google it (keywords for example: "best" trading computer, gaming) and if you won't be able to find it, I can post some good articles, videos on the topic, but I hope it is clear now

Also depends on the style of trading... Some that enter "calmly" once or few times per day... or week.. would be fine with almost any "office" comp, but for the more ACTIVE ones... every ms counts... and ms counts heavily in trading also, so?

Also, it is not just about the (manual) setup, by components (most just check the processor and almost ignore the rest, they do not even check the subcategories, just highest "n" after "i"; then "more advanced" check MEMORY/RAM, then graphics... and then it hits the wall, where the real deal starts, if you are hunting for the split-second , it is about the tuned system... and since top gaming comps get it best, (for the purpose - (graphics) SPEED) why not shop as is . I have seen comps that were "crazy", specs wise, but underperform vs expectations because specs (the main ones: RAM, graphic, processor) are not ALL, (all) the components have to be "tuned" to squeeze most out of it... Because you miss one "detail" and it can screw you... BTW if you find some "news" trader with wireless mouse, that can tell you something, I talked about this before... Real gaming comps use CABLE for a reason Just one example... And don't get me started on a more serious components... In short.. if you need "high (frequency)" trading (manual).... go for GAMING specs (also wouldn't it be wonderful to actually justify it as an investment vs expense?). If you want to "POSE".. Use some business/polished comps Well there are some crazy business comps/laptops for same type of money also, crazy, but gaming comps can be much cheaper for the same performance. If nothing else, just check some those huge curved monitors.. same company, almost, if not same specs.. but much cheaper as a gaming version

I repeat, would have Think... for FRONT, but LEGION or PREDATOR in the back, for REAL CRAZY ACTIVE trading So for different styles
Can you afford to take that chance?
  • #27
  • Edited Mar 28, 2020 10:21am Mar 27, 2020 2:35pm | Edited Mar 28, 2020 10:21am
Quoting HeyYou
he he he... right now I'm enjoying freaking old games such as felix the cat and warband.. if you don't know warband, shame on you lol if you do, don't forget to play it with my mod: https://steamcommunity.com/app/48700...2632994531087/ {image} {image} sorry for the ot... wait, what ot
It is not OT because you highlighted important thing that many traders are not aware of ... Brains are funny, some things are hard to de-associate... But I believe being a good trader is about seeing things differently, out of the box or whatever, to "connect the dots" outside the box... And this is one example.. using incredible specs of gaming comps that can be used for some crazy trading... Yeah, they might not look that serious but still...

Also, we have to thank guys in gaming (or even mining for some serious/crazy computer advancements in the comp business. I mean some things available now are even beyond SCI-FI from decade(s) ago!

I mean there are some reviews when reviewers even suggest, in case of monitors for example, to go for the cheaper GAMING version, because they are the same, just cheaper... well some downside to it, if you are looking for "image", is that gaming comps are not taken that "serious" in financial world.. But fin most of world are not dealing with REAL trading anyway... as is understood here... They provide liquidity, take commission, hitting buttons aka creating demand, resistance or whatever.. and you need "COMMODORE" for that Or some Hedge Fund like in Billions series, where they show where they get the "juice" and bloombergs are for image mostly, and execution, but they get their "analysis" elsewhere But for traders that are looking for every edge possible, (ms is last years news)... then every EDGE counts...

Maybe went to deep into it, but you get the point I hope

And about games... Well, must admit, I really enjoyed point and click games but haven't notice any good/new ones... I haven't played and gaming gaming games recently but as the technology develops, I might take a look someday/soon, just do not have the time now, also can not afford to "fall" into it since they can be very addictive... I am in particular amazed on the GTA and some crazy car games since it looks SUREAL!

And yeah, I have made/spected/advised some comp setups before, for REAL trading, because some traders absolutely had no clue where the "milk" is in the comp hardware, to find yourself AN EDGE;D

EDIT: here, some "sources" quickly..
"hey are basically gaming computers. The current spec is a Lenovo Y50. I realized that in general, if you look for any gaming computer it will be well suited for day trading because it will have good amounts of memory plus advanced graphics cards." SOURCE

"Why it works: While it’s called a “gaming” desktop, that same responsiveness can be applied to market quotes and charts, which can employ a similar amount of processing power." + "Fun fact: Gaming computers often work particularly well for traders, because they focus on graphics and running large programs that are similar in size to trading software." SOURCE

Also (about monitors) check spec and price differences between for example Lenovo Legion Y44W-10 and Lenovo ThinkVision P44W-10. One is for more business, one for gaming Check differences in specs and prices;D Also, in general... check their specs Think vs Legion (or those two categories business, gaming, at different brands - Acer for example, have some crazy gaming PCs, laptops, one of the things you will notice is wireless mouse vs cabled one... They "get it" Hence, if you want CRAZY trading, go for GAMING spected comps AS IS, don't adapt like "I want to change that" unless you know what you are doing, mouse being one example, something that is widely known in the gaming world. I posted about this in this post. Compare 1 and 2. Monitor comparison, also check price difference And that is one small example.

HeyYou!
Hah, one more thing Check this! Would be pretty awesome for trading right? But you would have problem being taken "seriously" in fin world, but if you would deliver ALPHA... Ok let me type correctly.. if you would bring/proof your ALPHA... first getting the chance to do that, than you can trade in this even But "hidden" from public/investors etc But seriously, I believe it would provide some serious REAL trading experience BTW If I would be looking for REAL traders, for the Hedge Fund, for example, this would be the setup Not bad for the "show" either... Like Minority report almost, aka the "whiz" kids ;D Hm...
Seems like how THANOS would trade And btw, you noticed THANOS was PLAYED by same actor that played big shot TRADER in the Wall Street Never Sleeps (2010) So you see... Also, SEATS are important in trading as in gaming... Ok I hope I proved or at least explained my point

Inserted Video
Can you afford to take that chance?
  • #28
  • Mar 28, 2020 2:21am Mar 28, 2020 2:21am
Quoting auricforecas
{quote} What about this 4K that some people complain? Also what about on the road? Any good mobile setup you found best? There seems to be many new options this days... folds, watches, some "lego" style combinations, but I still prefer about 150g smartphone + light 14" laptop (with "real" keyboard" to be the best combo on the road; of course both with access to cloud/server/RD if needed), what do you think?
yes, 4 K has some issues, although they are improving with every W10 update.
Some old apps. have problems with the resolution, but with some adjustments, it is easy to fix. I have no single app. with issues now.I play calssical guitar, so I have lot´s of music software too.
Once you get used to 4 K, all the rest seems like black and white TV.
As for mobile, I only check my trades on my android, but all adjustments are all done on my desktop.
  • #29
  • Mar 31, 2020 4:14am Mar 31, 2020 4:14am
Quoting cuchuflito
{quote} yes, 4 K has some issues, although they are improving with every W10 update. Some old apps. have problems with the resolution, but with some adjustments, it is easy to fix. I have no single app. with issues now.I play calssical guitar, so I have lot´s of music software too. Once you get used to 4 K, all the rest seems like black and white TV. As for mobile, I only check my trades on my android, but all adjustments are all done on my desktop.
Tnx for feedback... I avoid 4K in laptops for now, due to battery and also there are some PWM issues at some screens...

BTW.. I have been observing this electronic watches, with cellular.. and I think they can be a great addition specially since some brokers have apps for them...
It happened to me before that the battery on the phone went down and I could not place or exit certain trades... So the watch, as a backup at least, might solve that...
Can you afford to take that chance?
  • #30
  • Apr 5, 2020 2:41pm Apr 5, 2020 2:41pm
Guys, I was talking about wireless mouse latency and found this interesting clip... Would still prefer to stick to cable myself... but it is interesting to see that for some there models there might not be noticeable difference... Also found guidelines from one manufacturer about how to avoid the lag (moving USB dongle as apart from other usb plugs as possible)
Inserted Video
Will like to see from other manufacturers also.
Can you afford to take that chance?
  • #31
  • Apr 14, 2020 4:53am Apr 14, 2020 4:53am
Have noticed recently that new iphones are coming... Hope they will be lighter versions also.. Know already that there will be smaller sizes, which I strongly approve, just hope the weight will be reduced (much) also!

Also, I have heard from quite some people that there are quite a few (important) differences betweens apps developed for Android and for iOs... Anyone could elaborate? In particular, I heard that Oanda developed app better for iOS...

Anyway, looking forward to see the new specs, till then... sticking to Android phones since they offer many (weight) options...
Can you afford to take that chance?
  • #32
  • Apr 16, 2020 3:23pm Apr 16, 2020 3:23pm
Quoting auricforecas
Have noticed recently that new iphones are coming... Hope they will be lighter versions also.. Know already that there will be smaller sizes, which I strongly approve, just hope the weight will be reduced (much) also! Also, I have heard from quite some people that there are quite a few (important) differences betweens apps developed for Android and for iOs... Anyone could elaborate? In particular, I heard that Oanda developed app better for iOS... Anyway, looking forward to see the new specs, till then... sticking to Android phones since...
OMF! Finally! It is 148g! I can't wait to try it, love the (black) color also and wireless charging, if it will proven to be good, will buy a few more (also love the price since I consider phones as disposable/throwable ) just in case they mess it up later as they did in the past.. I still mis the jet black 5, still love it (one of the best phones if you ask me, they were very subtle, like a little chocolate, small, light...) but you can't buy them anymore and also iOS update issues for the model now :I This new one (SE) seems great, and 1m under water is epic, if true, I can't imagine it even! Can't wait to test it... But will also see how trading on it goes, few years back it (iOS) had some advantages but now people (even previous strong fans) tend to favour (more supported maybe) android solutions... I still prefer to have both style phones, just in case, since some apps are only for one and not the other but surely can't wait to get my hands on this last one... I was very concerned that phones will only get heavier (specially from this brand) and now really glad I can use the better comfortable (smaller, lighter) and NEW one, with current/updated iOs... Really want to see how it compares to samsung/android for example..
Can you afford to take that chance?
  • #33
  • Apr 16, 2020 9:35pm Apr 16, 2020 9:35pm
Quoting cuchuflito
{quote} yes, 4 K has some issues, although they are improving with every W10 update. Some old apps. have problems with the resolution, but with some adjustments, it is easy to fix. I have no single app. with issues now.I play calssical guitar, so I have lot´s of music software too. Once you get used to 4 K, all the rest seems like black and white TV. As for mobile, I only check my trades on my android, but all adjustments are all done on my desktop.
Interesting, thanks for sharing that. I have trouble with eye strain so I was thinking a 4k display would be optimal for my Carbon X1, but I'm going to have to research this further before buying.
Self-sufficiency is the greatest of all wealth. - Epicurus
  • #34
  • Apr 17, 2020 8:37am Apr 17, 2020 8:37am
Quoting EF5
{quote} Interesting, thanks for sharing that. I have trouble with eye strain so I was thinking a 4k display would be optimal for my Carbon X1, but I'm going to have to research this further before buying.
And also, don't forget, 4k seems to kill the battery... So for me, battery is definitely a priority... You can check the reviews, for example...
"I was warned that the 4K panel could slash battery life to about half compared to the FHD panel."
https://www.slashgear.com/lenovo-thi...view-06586165/

So it is up to each person's preference... also someone mentioned some problems (with PWM) with higher displays... Check this clip about it... I myself would prefer the non-PWM issue display with longer battery life... Have to test the possible screen lag though... But as long as it is as good as other FHD display from Thinks... I would much prefer it since BAT is very important to me... I mean what is the use of having ultrabook if you have to carry the charger or extra/external battery all the time right

BTW I prefer tested things and also they offer some epic deal for 7th gen now since 8th is out and I will let others test it first... I already noted they made at least one thing worse (logo position)... So will stick to verified (and cheaper) option for now
Can you afford to take that chance?
  • #35
  • Apr 27, 2020 7:48am Apr 27, 2020 7:48am
Guys, have been just looking how tablets have improved much... since they are also lighter then lightest ultrabooks... and they seem to be the "real computer" now.. specially with keyboard attachments (and pen) etc.. but still not completely convinced... so will stick to ultrabook+light smartphone idea, for now BTW just hate the large chargers of ultrabooks... in this department tablets win hands down...
Can you afford to take that chance?
  • #36
  • Apr 27, 2020 1:23pm Apr 27, 2020 1:23pm
I was recently reading a bloke on reddit who is a high frequency trader with some swish outfit. He answered a lot of questions, and I skimmed a lot. One big topic was what he called latency, and I hope I don't get this too wrong, but slightly on topic I think. The competing firms squabble about who gets the shortest cables at the exchange, for example. This makes a big difference when you compare execution speeds which can vary between 3 and 10 microseconds.

They measure these things.
  • #37
  • Apr 27, 2020 6:17pm Apr 27, 2020 6:17pm
Quoting LloydOz
I was recently reading a bloke on reddit who is a high frequency trader with some swish outfit. He answered a lot of questions, and I skimmed a lot. One big topic was what he called latency, and I hope I don't get this too wrong, but slightly on topic I think. The competing firms squabble about who gets the shortest cables at the exchange, for example. This makes a big difference when you compare execution speeds which can vary between 3 and 10 microseconds. They measure these things.
Latency is more of a factor for HFTs trying to arb between exchanges. That’s a very expensive game and something retail traders shouldn’t be overly concerned about.
Self-sufficiency is the greatest of all wealth. - Epicurus
  • #38
  • Apr 28, 2020 10:10am Apr 28, 2020 10:10am
Quoting LloydOz
I was recently reading a bloke on reddit who is a high frequency trader with some swish outfit. He answered a lot of questions, and I skimmed a lot. One big topic was what he called latency, and I hope I don't get this too wrong, but slightly on topic I think. The competing firms squabble about who gets the shortest cables at the exchange, for example. This makes a big difference when you compare execution speeds which can vary between 3 and 10 microseconds. They measure these things.
Quoting EF5
{quote} Latency is more of a factor for HFTs trying to arb between exchanges. That’s a very expensive game and something retail traders shouldn’t be overly concerned about.
Thanks to both about this improtant factor. Yes, everything factors... It is not only for HFs.. it is also around news, scalps etc... And imagine if you have manual SL and flash(crash) happens... Even if you have it automated, you could miss quite a bit because by the time your comp sends STOP signals (it has to receive the signal first)... That is why I prefer server-based TP and SL... at the broker himself...

I know quite some people that made mad money on latency alone... retail.. Until broker(s) started to ban them or reverse their trades... There is also latency arbitrage for this reason I mean the things they do to improve latency... at HF specially... There is one argument that that is why money makes money in "WS", because you can invest mad money in super speed... When I was dealing with this, millisecond was last years news, and that was 10+ years ago... And the wifi mouse can take 15ms... alone... Just for illustration. And then there is optics and you name it... I think the cable length should be the least of the problems...

They do measure in nanoseconds... https://www.energyexch.com/showthrea...12904103#reply
Crazy research here and improvements... But as I have said many times, this is not "real trading" as most understand but can bring mad money, if you can get away with (at news) or if that brings you significant edge (or compound one) at HF

And also, it is funny, nightmare from WS87 came true... NYSE is in NJ and guess where HF comps are now.. So if you want to make that kind of money, you know where you have to be
Can you afford to take that chance?
  • #39
  • Apr 28, 2020 12:02pm Apr 28, 2020 12:02pm
Get ANY computer.. ANYTHING right now on the market its more than ok

get a GOOD resolution screen IF you can afford it, if you cant IT DOESNT MATTER !!

get a GOOD internet connection with a LOW PING with YOUR broker !!! "Speed" doesnt matter, its all about ping/latency PERIOD.. the lower the better (Satellite internet tends to lag with everything)


thats it.. thats all you need to trade, that and your brain, anything else its just fancy crap that wont give you and "edge" dont waste money on that!! instead put it in your trading account so you can use bigger lot sizes and make more money !!! (the only thing that matter and the only purpose of trading)

get smart =)
  • #40
  • Edited 1:22pm Apr 28, 2020 1:07pm | Edited 1:22pm
Quoting havo
Get ANY computer.. ANYTHING right now on the market its more than ok get a GOOD resolution screen IF you can afford it, if you cant IT DOESNT MATTER !! get a GOOD internet connection with a LOW PING with YOUR broker !!! "Speed" doesnt matter, its all about ping/latency PERIOD.. the lower the better (Satellite internet tends to lag with everything) thats it.. thats all you need to trade, that and your brain, anything else its just fancy crap that wont give you and "edge" dont waste money on that!! instead put it in your trading account so you can...
Yup, I agree with most... It is just that there was one particular strategy where low latency was extremely important so you have to be THERE, right there at the broker, either physically or having server nearby Because no matter how good the broker, signal still has to travel the distance... and is limited by speed of light.. And also, MOBILE internet seem to have high(er) latency too.. Optics still wins hands down... + proximity... But yes, if this is not pure/sole edge... I concur with you... about the basic tools... Anything more is for the "fine tuning" or for better feel And also, as ussualy, things show at critical times... So much goes into "emergency"/backup/reliability/security...

And to go into the software.. Some traders go crazy if they see the NAKED CHART and profitable account... Saw basically a meltdown of one trader that used "you name it" 16h a day swallowing it... And then saw a guy trading naked, most trades on the GO... while... joking around almost But some people know how to trade in the background (developing trades, analyzing), while they appear to doing nothing or even partying...

For basic traders, I agree 100%... Invest in BALANCE and GO Normal comp is enough... and some mobile on the ago, almost any that can support min requirements... And it first considerable withdrawal (of profits), one can "award" himself with some nice lap + some slim to GO

But on the same sentence.. would like to stress the importance of the FEEL, ritual factor It just feels different to have something dedicated right It is good to have something to SWITCH... For example, I prefer at least different color (app) for certain trade/accounts, if not the RED phone itself
Can you afford to take that chance?
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