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Why do traders use so many indicators?

  • #101
  • Feb 13, 2020 11:16pm Feb 13, 2020 11:16pm
Update: Harmonic Completes "C" at below 78.6%

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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Pair qualifies through the 786 level. This leaves one of two outcomes:

1) Pair can reverse out of the Harmonic phase and into a simple ABCD Short continuation
2) Pair can move on with the XABCD Long reversal

Its really up to the Market what happens next. The Panel still shows roughly the same early phase reversal stuff that it did yesterday, just at a lower level in the market and at a lower lever in larger B2i structure. Nothing has changed here - just another System Rotation underway. Let's see if this rotation can offer some follow through.

Draw -33. Target 199. RR 6.03. Probability now 83.41% (within the current range established over the previous D1 trading session)
  • #102
  • Feb 13, 2020 11:25pm Feb 13, 2020 11:25pm
The point of this thread was to challenge anyone to show me any entry using an indicator based system, and then I would be able to find the same entry or better using no indicators at all. Proving that indicators really are not needed to trade. I wanted to provide some insight to new traders who may be losing faith due to trading different systems and losing money.

Indicators can help you to find entries and alerts can help you without having to look at charts, but at the end of the day you don't need them to be profitable.

It's more important imo for new traders to understand basic economics and what the forex market even is before trading. Then understand who moves the market and why it moves, then and only then should you look for entries using indicators or not.
  • #103
  • Feb 13, 2020 11:33pm Feb 13, 2020 11:33pm
Quoting JetTrader
{quote} Neither was I, but the OP required that we follow his rules. That's how threads work. If you don't want to follow the OP's rules, then disagree while not pretending you know better than those who are following the rules of the OP. Following rules are of paramount importance when trading. I was not doing anything with EURAUD either. The OP wanted a trade, I was busy taking care of some other duties and grabbed a pair. That pair happened to be GBPCHF and then EURAUD. Both randomly picked. Can you randomly pick a pair and then know how to trade...
I randomly grabbed the first two pairs that were sitting in the first open virtual machine I could find and I made a decision based on what the System was showing at the time. That's what the OP requested - that's what I did and I did it without making excuses. Now, go grab your EURAUD analysis and tell us how you would trade it. Its not hard. You are a trader, right. A Trader should be able to take any pair (and I mean any), analyze it and then determine what best to do with it.

Well going by my analysis I wouldn't trade it and I follow my rules implicitly. So am I making an excuse or following my rules?
I would consider EG,EJ,EC but they will be a Monday/Tuesday call. So staying out of the market is slightly less dumb than entering based on a challenge by someone else. If you fell for it that's up to you.

If you want to cock dangle at the bar taking 50/50 trades that again is down to you but no amount of flashing lights and pseudo bullshit analysis is going to give you anything better than a 50/50 chance and that's assuming you know when to exit, let alone enter which based on your rocket science posts have shown that you're throwing darts.

Agreed, it's not hard to trade ,right, but I had a PM saying you hit a nice 70 pip DD last night. A good trader should be able to analyse any pair and determine what's best to do with it? I didn't enter, you did.
  • #104
  • Feb 13, 2020 11:40pm Feb 13, 2020 11:40pm
Of course, when dealing with Harmonics, the full scope of possibilities should always be considered. This picture presents the Harmonic possibilities including Short Continuance ABCD, Long Reversal XABCD and the newly formed Internal Short Reversal XABCD embedded inside the larger Long Reversal XABCD. Encoding it would look like this:

Full Harmonic Scope (at the time of this post)
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: Harmonic Full Scope.png Size: 88 KB


The key here (Harmonically speaking only) is for the Cs to line-up and continue up to the Long Reversal D. There is also one additional route the market could take into the Long Reversal D and that is by moving down further to below the Long Reversal A, then turning back up into the Long Reversal D location. That would create a Hybrid Harmonic or what people often times call a Cypher Pattern. A Cypher (for the New Traders) is simply a Broken Harmonic that still conforms to the original Harmonics final projection. So, when you hear or see someone talking about a Cypher Pattern, they are traditionally talking about a Broken Standard Harmonic Pattern of some kind that still ended up where it was supposed to in the final analysis. So, a Cypher, is also a possibility here just as well.

On this particular pair and in this particular System, the H4 Time Frame is still controlling thing right now. It is in a state of flux within the System. It has firm downward force in the StealthIndicator side of the Panel (OmegaWave, TCDi7 and DistinctVega), but it has early stage reversal potential building on the right side of the Panel (GMMA, TripleStoch and RPD Profile). So, H4 is in a tug of war with itself right now. To get the Long Reversal completed and stabilized, H4 needs to convert the left side of the Panel to Green. If that happens, downside pressure gets released and D1 becomes the next conversion candidate. If that does not happen, expect more compelling downward force on EURAUD.

This is why I use a Trading System, to answer the OP's primary question. A System should be able to provide you with that kind of in-depth analysis of the current market situation in any instrument you load into its Engine.

That will end my participation in this thread for the night. See ya tomorrow and happy trades.
  • #105
  • Feb 13, 2020 11:58pm Feb 13, 2020 11:58pm
Quoting viptrading
The point of this thread was to challenge anyone to show me any entry using an indicator based system
Here is what the indicator based system tells right now. Potential intraday trades indicated by the zones. Those zones are calculated by tools(not supdem or SR indicators) that will update itself with each in-coming tick. The picture shows only the manually drawn levels aspect of analysis. I don't trade EA btw.
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Know what you trade
  • #106
  • Feb 14, 2020 12:08am Feb 14, 2020 12:08am
Quoting moodybot
{quote} I randomly grabbed the first two pairs that were sitting in the first open virtual machine I could find and I made a decision based on what the System was showing at the time. That's what the OP requested - that's what I did and I did it without making excuses. Now, go grab your EURAUD analysis and tell us how you would trade it. Its not hard. You are a trader, right. A Trader should be able to take any pair (and I mean any), analyze it and then determine what best to do with it. Well going by my analysis I wouldn't trade it and I follow...

This is why I left the forum years ago. People like you who don't know what they don't know and have no way of discovering what they don't know - who then try to comment about something they can't fathom, let along explain. As if you know about something you don't know about. The notion is absurd, but people just like you have been doing this kind of thing for nearly 20 years online from my observation. That which you can't explain, can't possibly work, because you can't explain it. That's not merely pseudo bullshit, that's just plain ole straight bullshit. But, people like you are Professors of Bullshit.

Case in point:

A 70 pip DD is commensurate with a 190 pip Target. Yet, with all your knowledge you never figured this out. You've been told that a "trade" is not a "Trade" until you define it with a Target. Else, you are blowing in the wind - believing you are actually Trading. Without a defined Target, you can't possibly have a Mathematical Probability, because Probabilities of this kind are not open ended and undefined. When you trade without a defined Target, you are posing as the poster child for guessing and gambling. This statement from you proves you know precious little about real Trading.

A 70 pip DD with defined 70 pip target is still 1:1 and within the realm of doable if you knew anything about creating Targets based on Density Probabilities (real math). Furthermore, the most successful "Rocket Scientist Trader" (tongue in cheek) also had multiple careers. One of his careers was as an NSA Code Breaker. When he became a Trader, he used Advanced Mathematics and some 'pseudo bullshit' (as you called it) otherwise known as Physics to become not merely one of the world's most successful Traders, but one of the world's Richest Men alive. Google it. You might learn something.

Lastly, you should spellcheck your Signature Line. Its a lie. You proved it was a lie by our abject foolish participation in this thread, claiming to know more than you do about something you know absolutely squat about in reality. That's the height of "Assumption" which your signature line claims you don't do. Stop lying to yourself. Go randomly grab EURAUD and demonstrate your abilities as a Trader. In other words, go grab a pair if you've got a pair.

The OP wants to see your trade, so that he can prove that Indicators are not necessary to be profitable. So, prove him right, prove him wrong or go find a neophyte to troll.

You know it all, yet you know nothing at all about that which you know everything about. LOL! Funny.
  • #107
  • Feb 14, 2020 12:09am Feb 14, 2020 12:09am
Quote
Here is what the indicator based system tells right now. Potential intraday trades indicated by the zones

That's not an entry based indicator system and you did not point out an entry or potential entry. Those are supply and demand zones, price bounces, recent areas of s/r...

I can do that using horizontal lines or boxes in mt4.

It may be a useful tool for you though, but that's all indicators are, only a tool, sometimes too many tools can become a disadvantage, in this case your chart seems pretty clean only using one indicator so I don't think it will cloud your judgement too much but still it does not prove to be more effective than plotting those lines by yourself so I don't see the point.
  • #108
  • Edited 12:30am Feb 14, 2020 12:13am | Edited 12:30am
Quoting viptrading
{quote} That's not an entry based indicator system and you did not point out an entry or potential entry. Those are supply and demand zones, price bounces, recent areas of s/r... I can do that using horizontal lines or boxes in mt4. It may be a useful tool for you though, but that's all indicators are, only a tool, sometimes too many tools can become a disadvantage, in this case your chart seems pretty clean only using one indicator so I don't think it will cloud your judgement too much but still it does not prove to be more effective...
I don't trade EA. If you want an exact trade entry I have to spend time to trade it when price reach those zones. I analyse the trade with the complete 5aspects of evaluation(Iwrote in my earlier post on this thread) based on the tools for each aspect before I make a trade entry. Sorry I won't spend time to do that for you.

Quoting viptrading
I can do that using horizontal lines or boxes in mt4.
The main difference with arbitrary manual drawing and automated tools drawing is the manual drawing is discretionary and linear in nature. Whereas automated tool drawing is fixed rules based formula and not linear in nature that updates itself with the most recent data.(I did not show the pic of the automated tools drawing)
Know what you trade
  • #109
  • Feb 14, 2020 12:20am Feb 14, 2020 12:20am
Quoting BWilliam
{quote} Here is what the indicator based system tells right now.
An interesting set of output, BWilliam. Current D1 Lowest Low condition has just made its first Higher Low this session. If that holds, the market extends upward towards your upper limit Long Targets. Of course, Line Pattern Traders would now see a Triangular Pattern forming on EURAUD at this stage. We are all observing the exact same price behavior using different tools.

I wonder what the Naked Chart Trader would be doing with EURAUD at this stage. Cash is always a position, so doing nothing with it is not a bad thing. We'll see. Good night.
  • #110
  • Feb 14, 2020 12:35am Feb 14, 2020 12:35am
Quote
The main difference with arbitrary manual drawing and automated tools drawing is the manual drawing is discretionary and linear in nature. Whereas automated toll drawing is fixed rules based and not linear in nature that updates itself with the most recent data.

Not to be rude but I have to disagree with you here. In my opinion it is much better to draw your own lines rather than rely on an automated drawing tool for many reasons. One being that if you are a good trader and understand the pair you are trading you will be able to make a better judgement on where the most important areas are. You should be able to do a much better job than a code...Unless its AI which I don't think anyone here has and even an AI plotting these areas wouldn't necessarily be better than a real human. The only reason to use this would be for pure convenience which I understand, and that's fine but still it doesn't disprove my original point. Also just to reiterate I wouldn't even qualify your system as one of the over-barring indicator based systems I've seen on here so there's not much to discuss about it, it's just supply and demand zones.

Quote
I don't trade EA. If you want an exact trade entry I have to spend time to trade it when price reach those zones. I analyse the trade with the complete 5aspects of evaluation(Iwrote in my earlier post on this thread) based on the tools for each aspect before I make a trade entry. Sorry I won't spend time to do that for you.

I'm not rushing you or anyone else to make a trade and prove me wrong lol. And you can post a past trade if you are not already in one by the way. I did not ask for you to spend any x amount of time either...

I made a simple request. Show me an entry with your indicator based system and I will show you the exact same entry OR better using no indicators at all. I am in no way arguing the usability or profitability or indicators, all I'm trying to say here is that they are not going to give you an edge...

I don't trade the 15 min charts usually but here is what I would plot my manual lines for EURAUD if I was looking for a trade at the moment. I also already posted a Daily and 4HR chart view post #67 of this thread. I believe that structures on higher TF are more reliable.

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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  • #111
  • Feb 14, 2020 12:42am Feb 14, 2020 12:42am
Quoting viptrading
{quote} That's not an entry based indicator system and you did not point out an entry or potential entry. Those are supply and demand zones, price bounces, recent areas of s/r... I can do that using horizontal lines or boxes in mt4. It may be a useful tool for you though, but that's all indicators are, only a tool, sometimes too many tools can become a disadvantage, in this case your chart seems pretty clean only using one indicator so I don't think it will cloud your judgement too much but still it does not prove to be more effective than plotting...

If we define a Tool as that which aids in making a trading decision, then a raw line chart on a blank chart background would still qualify. Absent that line or candle chart, the Trader has no other input into a trade decision - other than the order ticket itself, or a tick chart. So, this then begs the question: How does one define Tool.

A Tool is probably nothing more than Information Applied. The Tool requires Logic and the Logic requires Thought. So, the Tool is really nothing more than an aggregated set of logically arranged thoughts. Well, that's what any Technology happens to be. Technology is Applied Information shaped into the form of a Tool that can more easily leverage that information against some object or used through some process.

So, a Tool can take on various Forms. They can be Thoughts alone. They can be Physical Hardware. They can be bits on a hard drive and wrapped in a piece of Software, either procedural or compiled code. A Tool could be anything as long as it leverages effort. Ergo, looking at a pure line chart with a blank background or a candle chart, and then using your logically oriented Thoughts and Applying Information to leverage an action (executing a trade) is in fact a Tool.

I've been debating this same thing for 17 years with Traders. Some say a Trading System is nothing more than a Black Box. They then say that they are Fundamental Traders and don't use a Black Box. I just smile and say, oh really? What's a Black Box. Define Black Box? The Fundamental Trader then goes on to explain how a Black Box contains rigid instructions for making trades. I then say, Oh really? So, Fundamental Trading contains no rules, correct? The Fundamental Traders say, no, I use rules. I use rules based on Fundamentals. I then smile once again and say, then your box is not Black at all. No, indeed. Mr. Fundamental Economic Reports Trader, without question, your Box is Gray in color.

We all use a Box, because we all apply distinctive Rules to our trading. Whether those rules come out of an Economic Indicator, Report or News - the Information we glean from that fundamental input still must be Applied logically and intelligently to a trade decision. And, so it is with the Systems Trader. Their Box simply contains rules and tools based on nothing more than Applied Information. They can make that Box as flexible or as rigid as necessary to suit their needs. The same way a Fundamental Trader can make discretionary trades. The difference is that unmitigated discretion over time results in an increasing degree of Human Error.

The question is not whether we all use a Black Box, but rather What Color Is The Box You Use - cause we all use one - Technical or Fundamental. Applied Information will always be nothing more than Information Applied. No matter how we apply it. So much for Boxes.

And, with that I will finally retire for the evening. Good night all.
  • #112
  • Feb 14, 2020 12:43am Feb 14, 2020 12:43am
Quoting viptrading
{quote} Not to be rude but I have to disagree with you here. In my opinion it is much better to draw your own lines rather than rely on an automated drawing tool for many reasons. One being that if you are a good trader and understand the pair you are trading you will be able to make a better judgement on where the most important areas are. You should be able to do a much better job than a code...Unless its AI which I don't think anyone here has and even an AI plotting these areas wouldn't necessarily be better than a real human. The only reason...
One final point about day trading EA today. The math formula tool right now says that the higher probability trade is to look for long opportunity.
Know what you trade
  • #113
  • Feb 14, 2020 12:51am Feb 14, 2020 12:51am
JetTrader

I refuse to believe that you misunderstood what I meant by my statement.
  • #114
  • Feb 14, 2020 1:24am Feb 14, 2020 1:24am
Quoting JetTrader
{quote} This is why I left the forum years ago. People like you who don't know what they don't know and have no way of discovering what they don't know - who then try to comment about something they can't fathom, let along explain. As if you know about something you don't know about. The notion is absurd, but people just like you have been doing this kind of thing for nearly 20 years online from my observation. That which you can't explain, can't possibly work, because you can't explain it. That's not merely pseudo bullshit, that's just plain ole...
Whatever.........good luck with your predictions..
  • #115
  • Feb 14, 2020 3:28am Feb 14, 2020 3:28am
Quoting viptrading
The point of this thread was to challenge anyone to show me any entry using an indicator based system, and then I would be able to find the same entry or better using no indicators at all. Proving that indicators really are not needed to trade. I wanted to provide some insight to new traders who may be losing faith due to trading different systems and losing money. Indicators can help you to find entries and alerts can help you without having to look at charts, but at the end of the day you don't need them to be profitable. It's more important imo...
Brilliant idea! I believe that indicators can be used to trade profitably, but before one can do that, he would have understood the Dynamics of markets. VIPTRADING kindly share how one can trade without indicators, so that struggling traders can learn the basics here. Thanks
  • #116
  • Feb 14, 2020 9:39am Feb 14, 2020 9:39am
Quote
Brilliant idea! I believe that indicators can be used to trade profitably, but before one can do that, he would have understood the Dynamics of markets. VIPTRADING kindly share how one can trade without indicators, so that struggling traders can learn the basics here. Thanks

It's not easy to simply teach anyone how to trade. It's up to your personality and brain power. I cannot teach that. You can trade with indicators, there are many successful traders who do use them I'm sure. I choose not to for simplicity. If you really want to learn how to trade you need to understand first what Forex is, and how the market works.

You need to define your risk, which is how much capital you have and how much you are willing to put on the line to make a return on each trade. You need to understand what value means and how that determines which direction of the market you should be on.

Understand how to "buy low and sell high" is not so easy as picking tops and bottoms. Sometimes a "top" may be the beginning of a break out to create new highs, and sometimes it isn't. You need to understand that you will have losing trades, but it is how you manage your losing trades that will define you. Also, when you are in a winning trade you need to understand why you were right in the first place, and if you should hold on, add, or cut your position short and take profits.

The chart is only there to pick an entry decision. You need to understand what the chart is telling you based on current economical factors, supply and demand zones and interest rates.

The only thing that I can do is have you post a chart with an entry and I can give you my opinion on it, that's the best way I can think of showing anyone the basics. The reason for this is that I can try and show anyone how to trade but that doesn't mean you will understand what I am showing you. It is much better for you to show me what you know so far, and I will try and take it from there.

Cheers
  • #117
  • Feb 14, 2020 11:39am Feb 14, 2020 11:39am
[quote=viptrading;12754304]The point of this thread was to challenge anyone to show me any entry using an indicator based system, and then I would be able to find the same entry or better using no indicators at all. Proving that indicators really are not needed to trade.

I'm just saying ...... FerruFX !!!!!!!
A brilliant person who made a brilliant indicator.
This indicator is ALWAYS right. Anyone trading against this indicator is stupid and should stop trading !!!! The arrows show my preferred settings. (Use.Current = true / Use.Bar.insteat.of.MA = false)
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  • #118
  • Feb 14, 2020 11:50am Feb 14, 2020 11:50am
example
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  • #119
  • Feb 14, 2020 12:19pm Feb 14, 2020 12:19pm
Quote
example

Nice trade on EURCAD. Eur weakness and the break of the support level 1.44500 on the Daily is what cause this move to continue this week though. No need for an indicator for this move. Also the 6 continuous down days before the break offered many good opportunities to enter short.

Quote
I'm just saying ...... FerruFX !!!!!!!
A brilliant person who made a brilliant indicator.

I have no doubt that Ferru is a brilliant coder. I have used some of his tools in the past.

Quote
This indicator is ALWAYS right. Anyone trading against this indicator is stupid and should stop trading
This statement just simply cannot be true. I'm going to assume that you are not being serious with this...
  • #120
  • Feb 14, 2020 12:30pm Feb 14, 2020 12:30pm
{quote} This statement just simply cannot be true. I'm going to assume that you are not being serious with this...[/quote]

OK, I withdraw this statement. I correct.....
I am a basket trader. And if you trade all of the signals shown, you win at the end of the day. Point.
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