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In 2021, day trading in Germany will be dead

  • #221
  • Feb 1, 2020 4:35pm Feb 1, 2020 4:35pm
Quoting cuchuflito
{quote} Yes, you are probably right. I got 3 emails from them reassuring me that was the case though. "Dear client, Thank you for contacting OANDA. Everything that falls under Forex pairs should not be affected by this law. As they are spots." Wonder if Olaf agrees... In regards to leverage, isn't the broker just giving you credit? I hope this thread remains alive, there's a lot of room for clarification.
For information to those who did not see my reply to you in the OANDA thread here is the relevant part: "I hope that OANDA is right since forex trading is basically exchanging an amount in a currency for another currency and there will be no tax for exchanging € or $ into £."
  • #222
  • Feb 2, 2020 11:13am Feb 2, 2020 11:13am
Quoting anas460
Hey, I'm going to move to Germany soon, but I have a bank account abroad and I pay my taxes in my home country, if I trade while I'm in Germany, using my bank account in my home country, will I be affected by that law?
It depends on where you "reside".If you pay taxes on your "home country" you are free from the tax. There´s a whole bunch of different scenarios, you could live in Germany, but run a trading business in the UK, you could be an EU citizen, live in Germany but "officially" have a residence in Austria.
But if you live in Germany and pay taxes here.
THEN:
  • #223
  • Feb 2, 2020 11:55am Feb 2, 2020 11:55am
Germany is afraid of successful traders, like it is afraid of italians. Germany is usually afraid of the best.
  • #224
  • Feb 3, 2020 5:25am Feb 3, 2020 5:25am
Quoting jo24
Germany is afraid of successful traders, like it is afraid of italians. Germany is usually afraid of the best.
Rather, an increase in tax and protectionism (derivatives take an increasing share away from stocks and exchanges, because they are cheaper and more flexible).
Return To Disorder
  • #225
  • Feb 3, 2020 6:05am Feb 3, 2020 6:05am
Quoting rockit
{quote} Rather, an increase in tax and protectionism (derivatives take an increasing share away from stocks and exchanges, because they are cheaper and more flexible).
I would be happy of a united Europe, but it's not like that, every Country does its own interests. If Salvini will win the next elections, an Italexit will not be improbable...and if this will happen, it will be the end of Europe. Otherwise why Merkel would have said "Salvini must be stopped"?
  • #226
  • Feb 3, 2020 7:04am Feb 3, 2020 7:04am
Italy can not leave the EU. When Italy would leave they have to return to the Lira and the Lira must get devaluaded immediately. Italy is holding it's outstanding debts in EUR currency what means with a weak Lira (Italy needs a weak Lira to survive) the value of the debts will double. The same holds true for foreign commitments and bank loans of italian companies. Treasury bond interest rates and the prices for credit default swaps will increase significantly. Italy will profit no more from the EZB monetary policy and quantitive easing. There are many "zombie" companies and banks in Italy which can only survive because of the money policy of the EZB. Furthermore Italy will probably have no entrance to the EU domestic market at least not without high tariffs what will equalize (partly) the advantages of the weak Lira.
And so on and so on...
I don't think Italy can survive an EU exit. Italy is not the UK!

Merkel fears 2 things in regard to Italy:

1. Italy stays in the EU and Salvini applies a high expenditure policy which will increase the debt level.

2. Italy leaves the EU and will get in trouble which leads with high probabilty to insolvency. There will be a "domino effect" on many other (EU) countries and in the end there will be a great depression.
  • #227
  • Feb 3, 2020 7:08am Feb 3, 2020 7:08am
Back to the topic.

If you already don't know it this is the best source of information about the new law in german language.

https://www.wallstreet-online.de/diskussion/1317120-1-10/tradings-steuerregel
  • #228
  • Feb 3, 2020 12:52pm Feb 3, 2020 12:52pm
Quoting MCFly
Italy can not leave the EU. When Italy would leave they have to return to the Lira and the Lira must get devaluaded immediately. Italy is holding it's outstanding debts in EUR currency what means with a weak Lira (Italy needs a weak Lira to survive) the value of the debts will double. The same holds true for foreign commitments and bank loans of italian companies. Treasury bond interest rates and the prices for credit default swaps will increase significantly. Italy will profit no more from the EZB monetary policy and quantitive easing. There are...
Thank you for these informations, I am definetely not an economics expert... but I will repeat these things to my friends deceiveing them that I am.
  • #229
  • Feb 3, 2020 4:05pm Feb 3, 2020 4:05pm
Quoting rockit
{quote} Rather, an increase in tax and protectionism (derivatives take an increasing share away from stocks and exchanges, because they are cheaper and more flexible).
And to complete your sentence: … more flexible and more risky. Deutsche Bank lost €5.3 billion last year. Sooner or later derivatives will kill Deutsche Bank.

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  • #230
  • Feb 3, 2020 6:28pm Feb 3, 2020 6:28pm
Quoting mankindeg
{quote} Yeah. You could move. But alternatively, you can also start up a small company. That way you can still trade normally and be taxed at 25% on your winnings only. It's a bit of a hassle, but it is a possibility.
25%. Geepers. That's painful.
  • #231
  • Feb 3, 2020 6:37pm Feb 3, 2020 6:37pm
Quoting anas460
Hey, I'm going to move to Germany soon, but I have a bank account abroad and I pay my taxes in my home country, if I trade while I'm in Germany, using my bank account in my home country, will I be affected by that law?
You will mostly likely be subjected to Double Taxation at the end of the tax analysis. The key here is "Residency" if you operate your trading in a Personal Account. The key for Business Accounts is "Domicile." Where you domicile your business is up to you. Some people prefer to operate their business from a jurisdiction that treats them best and not like an Economic Slave.

Economic Slavery is a real thing - especially with Western Governments. Most of them are Bankrupt and hold their "Private Citizens" as Collateral Economic Slaves to pay a debt that can never be repaid. The United States of America is the poster child for this governmental behavior. However, many European Countries run a fairly close 2nd place to the US in this regard.

Your "Business" is free to domicile wherever it wants. It is a separate and distinct entity with its own ID. Structured the right way, you are not the business. You are just an employee - structured the right way.

The key in this regard is to get properly educated and know what you are doing before you do it.

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  • #232
  • Feb 3, 2020 7:50pm Feb 3, 2020 7:50pm
And these tax will be mostly spent on foreigner and refugees or other kinds of absurd projects.
Is not this miserable,germans?
  • #233
  • Feb 4, 2020 1:39am Feb 4, 2020 1:39am
Quoting john0415
And these tax will be mostly spent on foreigner and refugees or other kinds of absurd projects. Is not this miserable,germans?
They already calculated, that the Tobin Tax which has not passed yet, would bring as much as the coffee taxation!!..i.e not much.
It´s just pure populism, remember politicians trade on votes.
  • #234
  • Feb 4, 2020 12:30pm Feb 4, 2020 12:30pm
Quoting john0415
And these tax will be mostly spent on foreigner and refugees or other kinds of absurd projects. Is not this miserable,germans?
Never seen a politician that doesn't have one or more pet projects. In my country the biggest pet project has now cost $70 billion. It's called the wall!
  • #235
  • Feb 6, 2020 5:48am Feb 6, 2020 5:48am
Olaf, here he goes again, want´s to push the Tobin tax at any cost, now he proposes some populist tax reductions on poor people savings, in exchange for applying the Tobin Tax on "bad speculators" ...
My suggestion, look for a job in Venezuela, they love anti-capitalist populists.
Lottery tickets are fine with him, tax-free, especially if you buy them from the national lottery.

https://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2020-...r-pauschbetrag
  • #236
  • Feb 6, 2020 8:33am Feb 6, 2020 8:33am
Quoting cuchuflito
Olaf, here he goes again, want´s to push the Tobin tax at any cost, now he proposes some populist tax reductions on poor people savings, in exchange for applying the Tobin Tax on "bad speculators" ... My suggestion, look for a job in Venezuela, they love anti-capitalist populists. Lottery tickets are fine with him, tax-free, especially if you buy them from the national lottery. https://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2020-...r-pauschbetrag
Most governments are broke with the worst being mine under Trump. The US is virtually bankrupt and Trump keeps pushing tax cuts for the rich. The biggest joke of the day is coming from Olaf: "he proposes some populist tax reductions on poor people savings". With the negative rates of the ECB if you had €100.000 in savings the best interest rate you can get in Germany is 0.25% with the majority of banks having an interest rate on savings from 0.01% to 0.05%. So with €100.000 in your savings account you get an impressive yearly interest payment of €25 with the bank that's most generous.

Poor people don't have savings in banks since all their money is used for the necessity of life, shelter, food, etc. I hope that everybody are smart enough to see that a tax reduction on poor people savings is a sham. As seen in this video 78% of the people in the US live, as we say "paycheck to paycheck". Is Germany better?

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  • #237
  • Feb 8, 2020 6:30am Feb 8, 2020 6:30am
Quoting Hutch
{quote} Is Germany better?
Germany is way worse. While most people still find the United States to be somewhat attractive for investments, Germany has none of that.
Germany's capital, Berlin, is the only capital in europe with a budget deficit, being paid by richer states, like bavaria.
Almost no company in the Top DAX companies have their headquarters in Berlin.

The number of people holding stocks in germany is at an abysmal 7%. Compare that to other european states, or the United States where a once every-three-years study by the Federal Reserve found that 51.9% of families hold stocks either directly or in funds.

Almost no one in Germany even saves money. Over 90% of germans are completely dependent on the pension system by the state. If it, for some reason, crashes, pretty much everyone here is fucked. Apart from a handful of smart capitalists.
  • #238
  • Feb 8, 2020 8:58am Feb 8, 2020 8:58am
Mein Steuerberater geht davon aus, das dieses Vorhaben so nicht durchkommen wird, jedoch erst einmal Gesetz ist. Er war auch der Meinung, das dort vorher schööön geraucht worden ist. Anders lässt sich das auch bald nicht mehr erklären. Der Zeitpunkt des Abschlusses wurde ja auch taktisch gewählt.
Perfection is the enemy of good enough!
  • #239
  • Feb 8, 2020 9:57am Feb 8, 2020 9:57am
Quoting mankindeg
{quote} Germany is way worse. Over 90% of germans are completely dependent on the pension system by the state. If it, for some reason, crashes, pretty much everyone here is fucked. Apart from a handful of smart capitalists.
I think that there isn't much difference between Germany and the US. Poor and middle class citizens in both countries work hard until they retire but don't have enough savings so they have to rely on government pensions. This is the case in most countries. We are very lucky as traders since even if we never get a pension we can always make a living from trading
  • #240
  • Feb 9, 2020 10:37am Feb 9, 2020 10:37am
Quoting Hutch
{quote} I think that there isn't much difference between Germany and the US. Poor and middle class citizens in both countries work hard until they retire but don't have enough savings so they have to rely on government pensions. This is the case in most countries. We are very lucky as traders since even if we never get a pension we can always make a living from trading

True. We here are a bit smarter. And even if trading for some of us never works out, we atleast learn a lot about the markets and finances.
Trading isn't the only thing right?
Atleast for me personally, I also invest in index funds and other stuff. I don't rely on the state too much.
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