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In 2021, day trading in Germany will be dead

  • #201
  • Edited 1:34pm Jan 31, 2020 5:20am | Edited 1:34pm
Quoting cuchuflito
Correct me if Iīm crazy.
In your example the calculation goes like this (I will use 'round' numbers and other simplifications): Prior to Olaf, Tom would make 90k gain and 30k loss equals 60k before tax, equals 45k after tax adjustment (=net, @25% tax). With lex Olaf, Tom would make 90k gain and 30k loss equals 90k immediately taxable (every win) and 80k taxable after offsetting losses (90k gain minus 10k of 30k loss), minus 20k (30k-10k) loss, equals 40k net after tax adjustment, meaning 5k less than prior to lex Olaf. IMO.
Return To Disorder
  • #202
  • Jan 31, 2020 6:13am Jan 31, 2020 6:13am
Quoting cuchuflito
Just on the side, they asked the German Finanzminister a while ago on TV, where are his savings? Answer: "Sparbuch", that shows you how much he understands his business.(socialist of course).


Of course he would be a socialist. They're all retarded when it comes to economics.
  • #203
  • Jan 31, 2020 11:36am Jan 31, 2020 11:36am
Quoting rockit
{quote} In your example the calculation goes like this (I will use 'round' numbers and other simplifications): Prior to Olaf, Tom would make 90k gain and 30k loss equals 60k before tax, equals 45k after tax adjustment (=net, @25% tax). After Olaf, Tom would make 90k gain and 30k loss equals 90k immediately taxable (every win) and 80k taxable after tax adjustment (90k gain minus 10k of 30k loss), minus 20k (30k-10k) loss, equals 40k net. IMO.
Hi Rockit
You didnīt understand my question. Which was if, for Olaf, I am trading 1 unit, or 10000.
Anyway, Oanda confirmed to me today on 2 emails, that it doesnīt apply to the Forex trading through them.
What does apply today, is the horrendous Asian Session spreads they "offer", last night AUDNZD 12 pips!!
  • #204
  • Edited 1:18pm Jan 31, 2020 12:52pm | Edited 1:18pm
Quoting cuchuflito
{quote} Hi Rockit You didnīt understand my question.
I think I did, actually. It is just as I have stated already. It is not about units, but the incurring loss (net). You can exempt at max 10k of (cumulative) losses (offset vs gains) from tax per year and forward the rest of losses (if any). Your gain on a trade will be taxed immediately, however.
Good to read that at Oanda they believe that trading forex there is safe from lex Olaf, but we shall see in 2021..
Return To Disorder
  • #205
  • Jan 31, 2020 1:17pm Jan 31, 2020 1:17pm
Quoting rockit
{quote} I think I did, actually. It is just as I have stated already. It is not about units, but the incurring loss (net). You can exempt 10k of losses (vs gains) from tax per year and forward the rest of losses (if any). Good to read that at Oanda they believe that trading forex there is safe from lex Olaf, but we shall see in 2021..
Oanda maybe doesn't care. But isn't taxes something you have to do on your own anyway?
I mean, the ministry of finance obviously doesn't know what I traded during the whole year anyway, but isn't your responsibility to take care of taxes when having an off-shore broker?
Meaning that the ridiculous law would still apply?
  • #206
  • Edited 1:34pm Jan 31, 2020 1:20pm | Edited 1:34pm
Quoting mankindeg
but isn't your responsibility to take care of taxes when having an off-shore broker?
For off-shore brokers this may be true. Domestic brokers will be forced to deduce tax on gains immediately. I.e., you make a gain with a trade, your (domestic) broker deduces tax on the gain immediately.
Return To Disorder
  • #207
  • Jan 31, 2020 4:15pm Jan 31, 2020 4:15pm
Quoting kette
{quote} Please see what happens to our taxes, it will be given away. Democracy is over we have no way of doing anything about it because we are not responsible for referendums but we should choose those in berlin that's how it is with the GEZ and many other things or up to 70 work as a craftsman i'm a roofer
There is plenty you could be doing. First, take responsibility for the survival of your Trading Business. Second, and by order of the first, learn how to get your Trading Business outside the jurisdiction that treats you unfairly and take your Trading Business to a jurisdiction that does not treat you unfairly. It really is just that simple.

In doing this, you take responsibility for the longevity of your Trading Business by retaining control of your Trading Business and not turning that control over to boneheaded politicians. Merely because you now are classified a German Resident, does not mean that you cannot be classified as a Resident Somewhere Else that treats your Trading Business with the respect that it deserves by not taxing it into oblivion.

Do your homework. If your Trading Business means enough to you and the lifestyle it produces for you is enough to warrant sustaining it, then you may have to engage in a serious conversation with yourself and your family about whether or not retaining a German Passport and Primary German Residency is still warranted.

Primary Residency is not Secondary or Tertiary Residency. You can be a Primary Resident in "X" country while your Trading Business is domiciled and operated out of "Y" country. You can decide to 'reside' in either "X" or "Y" country, or you can obtain a "Tourist" or "Business" Visa that allows you to stay in German for 90 days within a 6 month period. That's 6 months out of the year. The other 6 months could be in a place with very nice weather, beaches, lots of sand and plenty of tropical appointments. A grand total of two round trip flights per year. That's just one method to deal with this. You don't have to be a "German Resident" to enjoy Germany. Enjoy life. See the rest of the world and adopt that as a potential lifestyle.

There are many other options for configuring the "X" and the "Y" in your life. For some conceptual ideas, you can get some decent starters advice from here: https://www.youtube.com/user/nomadcapitalist

Good planning to you!
  • #208
  • Feb 1, 2020 1:36am Feb 1, 2020 1:36am
Quoting JetTrader
{quote} There is plenty you could be doing. First, take responsibility for the survival of your Trading Business. Second, and by order of the first, learn how to get your Trading Business outside the jurisdiction that treats you unfairly and take your Trading Business to a jurisdiction that does not treat you unfairly. It really is just that simple. In doing this, you take responsibility for the longevity of your Trading Business by retaining control of your Trading Business and not turning that control over to boneheaded politicians. Merely because...

The easiest for a German citizen is to "move", to Austria, EU, no hassles, and still live in Germany. Luxemburg is also an option.
  • #209
  • Feb 1, 2020 1:46am Feb 1, 2020 1:46am
This thread was started on January 19.
Since then, and thanks to the many very useful contributions, hereīs my summary.
Please correct me if Iīm wrong. If you go through the thread you will find most of the information and links.

-The Law has passed.
-The chances of it changing in the near future are almost zero.
-The consequences:
Options and all Derivatives, CDF, etc. are finished (meaning unprofitable and potentially ruinous), for a professional trader, and in most cases also for a part-time trader too.
-Only trading left (for the moment) is Stocks, Spot Forex and Cryptos.

Any professional trader, active on any of the "blocked asset classes", is forced to emigrate or close shop.
  • #210
  • Edited Feb 2, 2020 12:09am Feb 1, 2020 2:00am | Edited Feb 2, 2020 12:09am
My personal comment:
Apparently Olaf and the "Koalitionspartner" were discussing for weeks, before reaching a "compromise" to accept at least 10000 Euros as maximum losses.
Finance Ministerīs intention was to accept zero!!!!!!
This proves 2 things: how powerful he really is, and how determined he is in attacking most forms of "trading".
This came after his "expert advisors", presented him a paper proving his other "tax bomb", the Tobin Tax (FTS), was, in reality, a bad idea.
This he kept secretly, and then made his countermove with this other tax, potentially even more toxic.
Sooner or later the law will have to change because it is basically against the Deutsches Grundgesetzt. But ir will probably take years, and he and his Party will fight.

Tobin seems to be dead, for now, remember, 0.2% on a stock trade seems neglectable for a position trader but applied to Forex, it would equal a 20 pip spread one way. (40pips roundtrip).
Needless to say, a 40 pip cost is still viable, provided you trade monthly bars and keep a trade open for 5 years.

So as long as Olaf Scholz is in charge of the Finance Ministry, any form of trading in Germany is threatened one way or the other.
The only reason he is acting this way, in my opinion, is plain "populism", with his own political career in mind.

I just canīt believe this is happening in this country.
But it is, Iīm not even mad, thatīs counter-productive, but I need to understand clearly what is the game here.
  • #211
  • Feb 1, 2020 2:02am Feb 1, 2020 2:02am
Quoting cuchuflito
{quote} The easiest for a German citizen is to "move", to Austria, EU, no hassles, and still live in Germany. Luxemburg is also an option.

Yeah. You could move.
But alternatively, you can also start up a small company. That way you can still trade normally and be taxed at 25% on your winnings only.
It's a bit of a hassle, but it is a possibility.
  • #212
  • Feb 1, 2020 6:28am Feb 1, 2020 6:28am
Quoting cuchuflito
This thread was started on January 19. Since then, and thanks to the many very useful contributions, hereīs my summary. Please correct me if Iīm wrong. If you go through the thread you will find most of the information and links. -The Law has passed. -The chances of it changing in the near future are almost zero. -The consequences: Options and all Derivatives, CDF, etc. are finished (meaning unprofitable and potentially ruinous), for a professional trader, and in most cases also for a part-time trader too. -Only trading left (for the moment) is...
I don't get it. How can you trade spot forex with a leverage? Maybe I'm wrong but spot forex has a 1:1 leverage what means no leverage. Derivatives have a leverage.
Can you trade stocks at spot markets with a leverage? I don't think so.

What the folks from Oanda are "thinking" is irrelevant. As long as they don't get instructed by the FA they know nothing. What you can do is asking the FA if it's right that Oanda an offshore broker claims theire german clients are not affected by the new law because of.... I'm pretty sure what the answer will be.
  • #213
  • Edited Feb 2, 2020 12:05am Feb 1, 2020 11:11am | Edited Feb 2, 2020 12:05am
Quoting MCFly
{quote} I don't get it. How can you trade spot forex with a leverage? Maybe I'm wrong but spot forex has a 1:1 leverage what means no leverage. Derivatives have a leverage. Can you trade stocks at spot markets with a leverage? I don't think so. What the folks from Oanda are "thinking" is irrelevant. As long as they don't get instructed by the FA they know nothing. What you can do is asking the FA if it's right that Oanda an offshore broker claims theire german clients are not affected by the new law because of.... I'm pretty sure what the answer...
Yes, you are probably right. I got 3 emails from them reassuring me that was the case though.

"Dear client,

Thank you for contacting OANDA.

Everything that falls under Forex pairs should not be affected by this law. As they are spots."





In regards to leverage, isnīt the broker just giving you credit?

I hope this thread remains alive, there's a lot of room for clarification.
  • #214
  • Feb 1, 2020 11:32am Feb 1, 2020 11:32am
Quoting cuchuflito
{quote} Yes, you are probably right. I got 3 emails from them reassuring me that was the case though. "Dear client, Thank you for contacting OANDA. Everything that falls under Forex pairs should not be affected by this law. As they are spots." Wonder if Olaf agrees... In regards to leverage, isnīt the broker just giving you credit? I hope this thread remains alive, there's a lot of room for clarification.
sorry but sure you are trading cfd and no spot..
  • #215
  • Feb 1, 2020 11:37am Feb 1, 2020 11:37am
IC M.....s

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  • #216
  • Feb 1, 2020 11:49am Feb 1, 2020 11:49am
Quoting thevisitor
{quote} sorry but sure you are trading cfd and no spot..
+ Oa... is a crap broker

they will always tell you what you want to hear..
  • #217
  • Feb 1, 2020 12:13pm Feb 1, 2020 12:13pm
Quoting thevisitor
{quote} + Oa... is a crap broker they will always tell you what you want to hear..
You made my day, say oanda is crap and trade with ic markets
you joking?
The biggest drawdown is ahead of you
  • #218
  • Feb 1, 2020 12:18pm Feb 1, 2020 12:18pm
Quoting amando77
{quote} You made my day, say oanda is crap and trade with ic markets you joking?
do i miss something??
ic m is not my broker man..
  • #219
  • Feb 1, 2020 1:30pm Feb 1, 2020 1:30pm
Quoting MCFly
Can you trade stocks at spot markets with a leverage? I don't think so.
Sure you can, especially in intra-day trading (daytrading).
"Day traders generally use margin leverage; in the United States, Regulation T permits an initial maximum leverage of 2:1, but many brokers will permit 4:1 leverage as long as the leverage is reduced to 2:1 or less by the end of the trading day."
Return To Disorder
  • #220
  • Feb 1, 2020 1:51pm Feb 1, 2020 1:51pm
Hey, I'm going to move to Germany soon, but I have a bank account abroad and I pay my taxes in my home country, if I trade while I'm in Germany, using my bank account in my home country, will I be affected by that law?
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