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In 2021, day trading in Germany will be dead

  • #181
  • Edited 11:39am Jan 29, 2020 11:27am | Edited 11:39am
Quoting Drolph
{quote} Und ich behaupte, dass du ein Loser bist. Gefällt dir das persönliche Niveau? Würdest du etwas genauer recherchieren, hättest du Livenachweise meiner Aktivitäten (bin schon seit gut fünf Jahren hier) zuhauf gefunden - aber du bist ja noch nicht lange dabei. Wie die meisten Verlierer. Unabhängig davon dürfte aber einem Bürger mit Sachverstand auffallen, dass ein Abgeordneter mit Bundestagsmandat in Zeiten seiner Funktion in der Legislative nicht ohne weiteres Tätigkeiten anderer Berufsgruppen nachgehen darf, speziell wenn dadurch Interessenkonflikte...
Ach noch was:

Ich lade dich sehr gern mal zu uns in den Süden ein...
lernst meine tollen Kinder und meine wunderschöne Frau kennen.

Dann zeig ich dir, was man NICHT mit DEMO-GELD kaufen kann:

Ein schönes Haus!!
  • #182
  • Jan 29, 2020 11:37am Jan 29, 2020 11:37am
What a stupidity? !
  • #183
  • Jan 29, 2020 12:17pm Jan 29, 2020 12:17pm
Quoting thevisitor
{quote} Also hier nochmal der Loser, oder besser gesagt, Bürger ohne Sachverstand: Du hast Recht, bezüglich Gesetzesregelungen usw. kenne ich mich wirklich NICHT aus. Was schwammige Politikeraussagen sind, kann ich aber ganz gut beurteilen Meine Menschenkenntnis ist aufgrund meines fortgeschrittenen Alters recht gut. Zu dir kann ich nur sagen, dass du die Worte die ich hier schreibe, nicht im Entferntesten Wert bist. ĎU fährst hier die persönliche Schiene und bezeichnest mich als Loser. Ich habe schon Forex gehandelt, da wusstest du nicht mal,...
Man sollte den Arsch nicht höher hängen, als man scheißen kann. Die sachliche Schiene hast du vorbildlich zuerst gerissen, ich passe mich deinem Niveau lediglich an. Spricht übrigens sehr für dein reifes Alter.

Welchen Teil von "Würdest du etwas genauer recherchieren, hättest du Livenachweise meiner Aktivitäten (bin schon seit gut fünf Jahren hier) zuhauf gefunden" hast du eigentlich nicht verstanden? Aber ja, mit lesen hattest du es ja nicht so.
Im Gegensatz zu meiner Behauptung lässt sich deine lächerlich leicht untergraben. Von dir dagegen gibt es bis dato tatsächlich nur leere Phrasen.

Woher schließt du eigentlich auf mein Alter?

Allerdings nutzt du inflationär Ausrufezeichen, von daher wirst du schon Recht haben.

Ich schließe den Kontakt zu dir mit: I am happy taking your pips.
  • #184
  • Edited 1:01pm Jan 29, 2020 12:38pm | Edited 1:01pm
Quoting Drolph
{quote} Man sollte den Arsch nicht höher hängen, als man scheißen kann. Die sachliche Schiene hast du vorbildlich zuerst gerissen, ich passe mich deinem Niveau lediglich an. Spricht übrigens sehr für dein reifes Alter. Welchen Teil von "Würdest du etwas genauer recherchieren, hättest du Livenachweise meiner Aktivitäten (bin schon seit gut fünf Jahren hier) zuhauf gefunden" hast du eigentlich nicht verstanden? Aber ja, mit lesen hattest du es ja nicht so. Im Gegensatz zu meiner Behauptung lässt sich deine lächerlich leicht untergraben. Von dir dagegen...
Ach Gottchen, Drolph..

hast Recht,
mit lesen und schreiben hab' ich es wirklich nicht so.
Hatte auch nur Mathe LK.
Du kannst mich gerne auf deine Ignore-List setzen.
Wen juckt's?

Gelernt habe ich, im Gegensatz zu dir, mich mit Problemen auseinander zu setzen und sie nicht zu ignorieren.
Das ist aber bestimmt auch etwas meinem fortgeschrittenen
Alter geschuldet.
Auch du kannst das noch lernen wenn Bock drauf hast und NEIN, ich setze dich NICHT auf meine Ignore-List.

Liebe Grüße
  • #185
  • Jan 29, 2020 1:05pm Jan 29, 2020 1:05pm
Quoting Drolph
{quote} But instead of emphasizing horror scenarios and debating about "runaway" solutions which are practically nonsense for most retails (emigration for instance) I am focussing on hints and facts that encourage to keep calm for the time beeing or get your defense ready. In this regard I am quoting an interesting reply from a MdB - the crucial part is given in bold letters. Sehr geehrter Spreadhändler, vielen Dank für Ihre E-Mail vom 11. Januar 2020, die ich gerne beantworte: Die Berücksichtigung von Totalverlusten aus bestimmten privaten Kapitalanlagen...
Interesting indeed Drolph:
All I can say after reading it: Was für ein BS Koalitionspartner!
There you can see how far "Master Olaf Scholz" is pushing the line, when his original intentions were (are), to ignore all the Losses. And he is fighting hard for it!! I mean this is what we are faced with, not good at all!!!
  • #186
  • Edited 1:28pm Jan 29, 2020 1:17pm | Edited 1:28pm
Quoting cuchuflito
{quote} Interesting indeed Drolph: All I can say after reading it: Was für ein BS Koalitionspartner! There you can see how far "Master Olaf Scholz" is pushing the line, when his original intentions were (are), to ignore all the Losses. And he is fighting hard for it!! I mean this is what we are faced with, not good at all!!!
Absolutely. This whole mess solely is caused by the social democrats. It is highly embarassing for the CDU as well, no question. Knowledge is king - here we have a new benchmark for it.

But the pressure increases..

https://www.handelsblatt.com/politik...KHzAyryBfN-ap4

When the Transaktionssteuer already got labeled as "verfassungswidrig" by an economic lobby around KPD-Olaf the issue with derivatives, which is even more clear unconstitutional(!), is looking more positive now.
  • #187
  • Jan 29, 2020 1:34pm Jan 29, 2020 1:34pm
Quoting Drolph
{quote} Absolutely. This whole mess solely is caused by the social democrats. It is highly embarassing for the CDU as well, no question. Knowledge is king - here we have a new benchmark for it. But the pressure increases.. https://www.handelsblatt.com/politik...KHzAyryBfN-ap4 When the Transaktionssteuer already got labeled as "verfassungswidrig" by an economic lobby around KPD-Olaf the issue with derivatives,...

Understand, but Olaf seems to take the issue as a personal fight, he knew about this from his ökonomischer Beraterkreis since November. Looks like the new law is his revenge answer for possibly losing the Tobin Tax battle.
  • #188
  • Jan 29, 2020 1:37pm Jan 29, 2020 1:37pm
Quoting Drolph
{quote} Absolutely. This whole mess solely is caused by the social democrats. It is highly embarassing for the CDU as well, no question. Knowledge is king - here we have a new benchmark for it. But the pressure increases.. https://www.handelsblatt.com/politik...KHzAyryBfN-ap4 When the Transaktionssteuer already got labeled as "verfassungswidrig" by an economic lobby around KPD-Olaf the issue with derivatives,...

Check this from:
https://finanz-szene.de/banking/das-...hammer-wissen/

Ist die Sache definitiv durch?
Banken, Fintechs und Lobbyisten hoffen darauf, …

  1. … dass die Finanzverwaltung die Anwendungserlasse anlegerfreudlicher gestalten wird als den Gesetzestext selbst. Bisherige Stellungnahmen des Finanzministeriums (auch gegenüber Finanz-Szene.de) deuten aber nicht darauf hin, dass es dazu wirklich kommen wird.
  2. … dass die tendenziell vage gehaltenen Passagen noch konstruktiv ausgelegt werden. Das gilt insbesondere für die Passagen, ob etwa der 70 Mrd. Euro große Markt für Retail-Derivate komplett unter den Mantel von Termingeschäften fällt – und ob ein Verkauf zum Restwert ein Totalverlust oder doch voll anrechenbarer normaler Verlust ist.
  3. … dass sich das Gesetz womöglich verfassungsrechtlich kippen lässt. Dabei müssen sich alle Beteiligten jedoch auf ein womöglich jahrelanges Verfahren gefasst machen.

  • #189
  • Jan 29, 2020 1:44pm Jan 29, 2020 1:44pm
In my humble understanding, spot forex seems to be not included in this madness.
Cryptos neither, so I´m checking those on the sidelines, to have an open ace in my pocket just in case.

I own a small business, work from my (paid) little blockhouse, with my wife. Life is good in Germany, but sometimes we just can´t believe in the absurdity of the regulations we have to face every day with our small company. Such a waste of time to feed these useless bureaucrats.
  • #190
  • Jan 29, 2020 1:53pm Jan 29, 2020 1:53pm
why are we talking about transaction tax here?

off topic
two complete different stories

transaction tax - only for stocks.

for the new law 2021:
forex seems (maybe) not be included
  • #191
  • Jan 29, 2020 2:00pm Jan 29, 2020 2:00pm
Quoting cuchuflito
In my humble understanding, spot forex seems to be not included in this madness. Cryptos neither, so I´m checking those on the sidelines, to have an open ace in my pocket just in case. I own a small business, work from my (paid) little blockhouse, with my wife. Life is good in Germany, but sometimes we just can´t believe in the absurdity of the regulations we have to face every day with our small company. Such a waste of time to feed these useless bureaucrats.
Nearly all Brokers offering "spot forex" are operating with Forex-CFDs indeed. True "Kassa" Forex got a lot of disadvantages, most important they are not tradeable 24/5 since they are not rolled over. So they are no workaround (for me) as most strategies are cut off here. Besides the fact, that you won't find a lot of reliable brokers out there offering them.

Here is a quote from FXFlat: ""Devisenkassageschäft (Forex-Spot) hingegen ist ausschließlich intraday handelbar in der Zeit von Montag bis Freitag 08:00 MEZ - 22:00 MEZ."
  • #192
  • Jan 29, 2020 11:24pm Jan 29, 2020 11:24pm
Quoting Drolph
{quote} Nearly all Brokers offering "spot forex" are operating with Forex-CFDs indeed. True "Kassa" Forex got a lot of disadvantages, most important they are not tradeable 24/5 since they are not rolled over. So they are no workaround (for me) as most strategies are cut off here. Besides the fact, that you won't find a lot of reliable brokers out there offering them. Here is a quote from FXFlat: ""Devisenkassageschäft (Forex-Spot) hingegen ist ausschließlich intraday handelbar in der Zeit von Montag bis Freitag 08:00 MEZ - 22:00 MEZ."

Ok but this is the answer I got from my Broker

".....Thank you for contacting OANDA.

As a regulated broker, we are required to be informed about the latest financial/economic news on our client's country of residence or division. To answer your question, all pairs that fall under Forex are considered to be direct currency trade......"



Devisentermingeschäfte sind in Randziffer 38 des BMF-Schreibens „Einzelfragen zur Abgeltungsteuer“ vom 18. Januar 2016 (BStBl I S. 85) geregelt. Devisenkassageschäfte fallen nicht unter diese Regelung.
Wichtig: Der Forex-Kassa-Handel ist nicht betroffen, weil er sozusagen das Originalprodukt darstellt. Die betroffenen Produkte sind allesamt Derivate, sie beziehen sich also auf ein anderes Produkt.
  • #193
  • Jan 29, 2020 11:31pm Jan 29, 2020 11:31pm
The funny thing about this Tax BS is that "Master Olaf", and most Germans "believe" we traders make millions clicking pretty charts on our fancy screens.
As if trading, in reality, was at all easy, this is the last hurdle we all needed.
  • #194
  • Jan 30, 2020 2:40am Jan 30, 2020 2:40am
Quoting cuchuflito
{quote} Ok but this is the answer I got from my Broker ".....Thank you for contacting OANDA. As a regulated broker, we are required to be informed about the latest financial/economic news on our client's country of residence or division. To answer your question, all pairs that fall under Forex are considered to be direct currency trade......" Devisentermingeschäfte sind in Randziffer 38 des BMF-Schreibens „Einzelfragen zur Abgeltungsteuer“ vom 18. Januar 2016 (BStBl I S. 85) geregelt. Devisenkassageschäfte fallen nicht unter diese Regelung. Wichtig:...
Interesting.

But after making up my mind it becomes clear. Oanda is one of the few brokers accepting US clients. Therefor they are not allowed to offer CFDs. That's the reason behind their offering of spot forex. BUT...

.. you are paying for it. If it would not be a major difference for the broker to decide between Forex-CFDs or spot forex many more would follow Oandas approach. But they don't. I am withdrawing on a regular basis and got accounts with over a dozen brokers. Based on my experience, there are only a few out there I am working with on a "partnership" level without any hickups. Oanda is not one of them. For good reason. Just consider their FPA scoring: https://www.forexpeacearmy.com/forex...ort=created_at

So they are an exception and on top of that not a broker I would trust. To wrap it up: "switching" to spot-forex is not the solution compared to the alternatives of betting on a change on constitutional level or going to court.
  • #195
  • Jan 30, 2020 3:42am Jan 30, 2020 3:42am
Quoting Drolph
{quote} Interesting. But after making up my mind it becomes clear. Oanda is one of the few brokers accepting US clients. Therefor they are not allowed to offer CFDs. That's the reason behind their offering of spot forex. BUT... .. you are paying for it. If it would not be a major difference for the broker to decide between Forex-CFDs or spot forex many more would follow Oandas approach. But they don't. I am withdrawing on a regular basis and got accounts with over a dozen brokers. Based on my experience, there are only a few out there I am working...
Understand Drolph
They are not the best broker around, but they offer units unlike lots or micro-lots, I like to adjust my position size /risk, precisely.
Anyway, reading the link you provided, I just wrote them again for clarification, as to what they are really offering (spot or derivative), on currencies. All cfds on stocks indexes and commodities are history, at least for the next few years.
I can hardly believe this is happening in Germany, I mean, Venezuela or N. Korea I would understand.
Olaf just wiped out the whole options business (which is the main target), including the brokers and banks offering them. Wonder what´s next.
  • #196
  • Edited 5:27am Jan 30, 2020 5:13am | Edited 5:27am
Quoting MCFly
Really bad news for all german forex traders: The german left wing government -yes unfortunately nearly all german parties are leftist nowadays- has passed a law which will change the way how wins and losses resulting from trading derivatives (which includes forex) are treated by taxation. At the moment it is common at the end of the year to offset wins and losses in order to pay a 25% tax on the wins or zero tax when the losses were larger than the wins. After the law will be introduced it will only be possible to offset max 10.000 EUR of losses....
perhaps you should clarify with a tax attoney. because its in german. im unable to read it.

but logically speaking and from an accounting point of view it makes no sense.
1.2m - 1m = 200k profit. (gross profit) - 25% tax = net profit
1.2m - 10k = 1.19m profit (gross profit) ? where does the accountant account for the 990k loss? sweep it under the rug?


my interpretation of what the changes are is that a MAX OF -$10K loss can be carried forward to next financial year.

eg:
2020 FY: Net loss of -$300k.
currently -$300k can be brought forward to next following year as tax deductable. but now they cap the carried forward at only 10k.

i live in Singapore, and we have a system similar. maybe this change by your regulators is somewhat similar.
year1: started new company, so had tax relief
Attached Image

year2: loss
Attached Image

year3: made profit but because year 2 had loss, they allow you to offset profits with some losses to help decrease taxible amount
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: yr3.JPG Size: 57 KB
  • #197
  • Jan 30, 2020 6:25am Jan 30, 2020 6:25am
"1.2m - 10k = 1.19m profit (gross profit) ? where does the accountant account for the 990k loss? sweep it under the rug?"

Unfortunately that's the truth. It's a law for privat persons not for companies. You can carry forward the rest of the loss but at the end of every year you can always substract an amount of only 10.000 EUR as a loss from your gross profit. An addiotional goody is that you have to pay tax for every win immediately (the broker is doing it for your) but I have no clue how this should work with an offshore broker.
  • #198
  • Jan 30, 2020 1:35pm Jan 30, 2020 1:35pm
Quoting MCFly
"1.2m - 10k = 1.19m profit (gross profit) ? where does the accountant account for the 990k loss? sweep it under the rug?" Unfortunately that's the truth. It's a law for privat persons not for companies. You can carry forward the rest of the loss but at the end of every year you can always substract an amount of only 10.000 EUR as a loss from your gross profit. An addiotional goody is that you have to pay tax for every win immediately (the broker is doing it for your) but I have no clue how this should work with an offshore broker.
I think that many offshore brokers will do like they do with American traders and just refuse to let German citizens trade on their platform since they don't want to have to report trades to German authorities or have to collect taxes since this may require a lot of work on their part.
  • #199
  • Edited 3:34am Jan 31, 2020 3:02am | Edited 3:34am
[quote=Drolph;12728615]{quote} Interesting. But after making up my mind it becomes clear. Oanda is one of the few brokers accepting US clients.

Thanks, Drolph

I have one big question:
Trader Tom is a scalper, day-trades 10000 positions.
Averages 6 trades a day.
50% win rate.
0,2 R expectancy, so he averages 40 Euros per trade, win or lose.
Right after the first loss of the year though, he already covered his 10000 Euro loss/ deducible trade right?

Normally he would be making a nice salary: 240 Euros a day. After taxes, some 3000 Euros a month.

3 losing trades a day,60 a month,7.2 million loss per year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1.8 million in taxes?????????

So my question is, does "Master Olaf" consider he lost the full 10000 plus distance to stop, or only the difference between.
Eg.
Tom goes EURUSD long 10000, with a 20 pip stop and is stopped out. He looses 16 Euros (approx.)
Did he loose 16 Euros for Olaf, or 10016 Euros?????
Next trade is a winner, 10056.
Net win 40 Euros.

Correct me if I´m crazy. Cause if my calculation is right, then Olaf is crazy.
I look at my trading history at OANDA, every trade shows in terms of "units" bought or sold.
  • #200
  • Jan 31, 2020 4:06am Jan 31, 2020 4:06am
Quoting Hutch
{quote} I think that many offshore brokers will do like they do with American traders and just refuse to let German citizens trade on their platform since they don't want to have to report trades to German authorities or have to collect taxes since this may require a lot of work on their part.
An why should they do that? They want to earn money and as long as they are allowed to bring their service to German clients they will do so. They simply put any tax related issues into the disclaimer and thats it. It is your own business to declare anything tax related.
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