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In 2021, day trading in Germany will be dead

  • #141
  • Jan 25, 2020 3:14am Jan 25, 2020 3:14am
Quoting Hutch
{quote} Please don't despair. If you think German politicians are acting insane you should compare them with those of my country. At one time we had politicians that care about the population now the Democrats and the Republicans are the same and they seem to work only for the 1%. The educational level of the population is getting worse because parents cannot afford to send their children to university. The budget deficit is going through the roof and nobody cares since the Fed can print money ad vitam æternam. Health care costs are going up at...
Not at all is bad and same is also in your country. Things can be better and this is the point who cares. It make no sense reflect a poor country and say, oh wow how good we have here in Germany. As one of the richest country's in world we have also many trouble. And the cuts who many workers now have will be destroy in future many many things. No good income result later in a poor living after the working years. The French people fight against the government who want the people must work longer. We in Germany must work long and I am sure this will in future be 70 years. Do you think in a heavy job, I am a steel worker, this can be done? No, this is for the most not reachable and so they must live with a cut of the retirement money. Yes we do not collapse that fast, but the balance is not more given. We can do better, but our government was to inactive the last year's.
Perfection is the enemy of good enough!
  • #142
  • Jan 25, 2020 3:31am Jan 25, 2020 3:31am
Vielleicht ist es doch langsam an der Zeit dieses Land und die Augsburger-Puppenkiste oder wie man diese "Regierung"nennen mag zu verlassen ......

May the Sheen be with you....
  • #143
  • Jan 25, 2020 9:30am Jan 25, 2020 9:30am
That may sound fair for all people, except traders. The logical point is this - traders, with their losses may try to avoid taxation. Of course, that's unfair for all German traders, as that's simply impossible to pay taxes when you lose. That's european trend, as european population is becoming older and goverments need more money. That's bad for economic growth. Therre are some questions about how losses are counted and how traders that work with foreign brokers will pay taxes.
  • #144
  • Jan 25, 2020 10:06am Jan 25, 2020 10:06am
once more I repeat my question concerning
replay 37, may be this is the answer for next time
https://finanzmarktwelt.de/steuer-ho...wortet-154905/
  • #145
  • Jan 25, 2020 10:13am Jan 25, 2020 10:13am
Quoting Isabella_D
{quote} Are you able to elaborate on this? Facts, discussions from which something could be derived. edit Just bashing politicians? No factual arguments for taxing forex as described? see #37 That brings empty pockets because of ignorance.
OK, these people called Finanzamt and asked about forex, here ´s the article.

https://finanzmarktwelt.de/steuer-ho...wortet-154905/

Betroffen sind Sie als Trader, wenn sie Hebelzertifikate, Optionen, Futures, Optionsscheine und CFDs handeln. Und der Devisenhandel, abgekürzt auch bekannt als Forex-Trading? . Hierzu haben wir beim Bundesfinanzministerium nachgefragt und um eine klare Antwort gebeten. Und wir haben Antwort erhalten. Wer die vorher beschriebenen Derivate auf Devisenpaare handelt, unterliegt diesem neuen Steuer-Horror. Wer Forex in der Kasse handelt, hat kein Problem, denn er ist nicht davon betroffen.

I trade with OANDA a market maker, I understand the forex pairs I trade are also CFDs.
This comes on the ir first page on top:

"CFDs sind komplexe Instruments und beinhalten ein hohes Verlustrisiko aufgrund des Hebels.
73.5 % aller Kleinanlegerkonten erleiden Verluste beim Handeln mit CFDs mit diesem Anbieter.
Bitte seien Sie sich uber den Handel von CFDs bewusst, ebenso darueber, ob Sie das hohe Risiko, welches beim Handeln mit CFDs involviert ist, aussetzen moechten."

But I'm not 100% sure, cause they also offer Stock, Commodities, and Indexes CFDs.
So I will contact them.

It might also be, that if you trade with a true ECN broker, who simply acts as a middleman between you and the wide market, to which it gives you access in exchange for a commission, is not a CFD Forex broker.

This I am almost sure is the case, and then, this way of trading forex would be free from the bloody tax.
  • #146
  • Jan 25, 2020 10:22am Jan 25, 2020 10:22am
thx @cuchuflito, see above, I found it out myself.
all the best and wishes for nonhysterical discussion
  • #147
  • Jan 25, 2020 11:06am Jan 25, 2020 11:06am
Quoting Isabella_D
thx @cuchuflito, see above, I found it out myself. all the best and wishes for nonhysterical discussion
So this brings some relief, I contacted OANDA, and this is what they answered:

".....Thank you for contacting OANDA.

As a regulated broker, we are required to be informed about the latest financial/economic news on our client's country of residence or division. To answer your question, all pairs that fall under Forex are considered to be direct currency trade......"

Schön und gut ABER:
We need to make sure this is accurate before we run into surprises at the end of 2021. (hope you don´t consider this also hysterical).
  • #148
  • Jan 25, 2020 11:29am Jan 25, 2020 11:29am
Das ist mir alles zu schwammig und ich persönlich werde das mit meinem Steuerberater erörtern. Somit sind die Trading-Aktivitäten bis zur Klärung auf ein Minimum eingeschränkt. Kann das auch nur allen anderen empfehlen, bevor dann die bittere Ernüchterung kommt.
Perfection is the enemy of good enough!
  • #149
  • Jan 25, 2020 11:33am Jan 25, 2020 11:33am
Quoting cuchuflito
{quote} So this brings some relief, I contacted OANDA, and this is what they answered: ".....Thank you for contacting OANDA. As a regulated broker, we are required to be informed about the latest financial/economic news on our client's country of residence or division. To answer your question, all pairs that fall under Forex are considered to be direct currency trade......" Schön und gut ABER: We need to make sure this is accurate before we run into surprises at the end of 2021. (hope you don´t consider this also hysterical).
yes, all clarification in this matter is wellcome. Any surprice is not excluded, so I described above. Next hurdle could be Financial Transaction Tax.
However. lets not derive Actions from eggs not laid.
  • #150
  • Jan 25, 2020 11:33am Jan 25, 2020 11:33am
Quoting cuchuflito
{quote} So this brings some relief, I contacted OANDA, and this is what they answered: ".....Thank you for contacting OANDA. As a regulated broker, we are required to be informed about the latest financial/economic news on our client's country of residence or division. To answer your question, all pairs that fall under Forex are considered to be direct currency trade......" Schön und gut ABER: We need to make sure this is accurate before we run into surprises at the end of 2021. (hope you don´t consider this also hysterical).
yes, all clarification in this matter is wellcome. Any surprice is not excluded, so I described above. Next hurdle could be Financial Transaction Tax.
However. lets not derive Actions from eggs not laid. Thx for your contribution
  • #151
  • Jan 25, 2020 11:57am Jan 25, 2020 11:57am
Quoting cuchuflito
{quote} So this brings some relief, I contacted OANDA, and this is what they answered: ".....Thank you for contacting OANDA. As a regulated broker, we are required to be informed about the latest financial/economic news on our client's country of residence or division. To answer your question, all pairs that fall under Forex are considered to be direct currency trade......" Schön und gut ABER: We need to make sure this is accurate before we run into surprises at the end of 2021. (hope you don´t consider this also hysterical).
sorry, why OANDA??
there are so many good brokers...
had an account...very bad ...sorry..
extremely widen spread and stop hunting...

Sorry, wrong thread
  • #152
  • Jan 26, 2020 9:59am Jan 26, 2020 9:59am
Quoting Isabella_D
{quote} yes, all clarification in this matter is wellcome. Any surprice is not excluded, so I described above. Next hurdle could be Financial Transaction Tax. However. lets not derive Actions from eggs not laid. Thx for your contribution
Das ist wichtig Isabella

https://www.dsw-info.de/steuerirrsin...te/Form/#c6904
  • #153
  • Jan 26, 2020 3:08pm Jan 26, 2020 3:08pm
Quoting MichaelSch
{quote} Not at all is bad and same is also in your country. Things can be better and this is the point who cares. It make no sense reflect a poor country and say, oh wow how good we have here in Germany. As one of the richest country's in world we have also many trouble. And the cuts who many workers now have will be destroy in future many many things. No good income result later in a poor living after the working years. The French people fight against the government who want the people must work longer. We in Germany must work long and I am sure...
The biggest problem in most countries is that politicians keep making promises that the country's economy cannot afford to fulfill in the long run. Of course politicians don't bother making an analysis if the country can afford to fund these promises. Unfortunately people won't make an analysis either and will vote for the politician or the party that made the promises that will benefit them the most. Of course, sooner or later, as we say in the US "The chickens come home to roost" meaning that a solution must quickly be found to avert further dangers. In France, the politicians promised high pensions with a minimum period of work and that promise was unaffordable. No wonder President Macron wants to do the right thing by putting the pension systems in equilibrium but the voters agree with the changes but only for future generations not a good option. The way I see it there is no way steel workers should work as long as office clerks to receive the same pension. Pensions must make accommodations for those that work in difficult and/or hazardous professions. If not this is totally unfair.

Apart from promises that cannot be kept the problem is that there are too many politicians that never had a real job in their lives since they are professional politicians. So they have no experience of the real world workers must face. I wish you good health Michael so that you can collect your well deserved pension and enjoy it for a very long time.
  • #154
  • Jan 26, 2020 5:29pm Jan 26, 2020 5:29pm
Quoting cuchuflito
{quote} Das ist wichtig Isabella https://www.dsw-info.de/steuerirrsin...te/Form/#c6904
danke, hatte ich bereits gemacht
  • #155
  • Jan 27, 2020 1:26pm Jan 27, 2020 1:26pm
https://financial-hacker.com/the-sch...tax/#more-3197
  • #156
  • Jan 27, 2020 2:00pm Jan 27, 2020 2:00pm
Quoting thevisitor
https://financial-hacker.com/the-sch...tax/#more-3197
I read the whole article and liked this scenario and the question.

"Bob owns EUR 20,000 that he invests in options trading. He buys about 200 options per year. In one winning year, 101 of the transactions ended with a profit of EUR 1000 each, 99 transactions with a loss of EUR 1000 each. The annual result is EUR 2000. The taxable profit is EUR 101,000, for which Bob has to pay a tax of EUR 91,000 x 25% = EUR 22,750 after deducting EUR 10,000 loss. The tax rate in relation to the EUR 2000 profit is 1137.5%. Is the tax calculation correct?"

However I did not like the reply from the Ministry of Finance.

"I got a long formal response with little information content. It did not answer any of my questions, but confirmed that the 1137.5% tax and the tax on losses in scenarios 2 and 3 is for real."

There is still 11 months to before the law will be implemented. Hopefully enough traders will complain about the unfairness of the law so that it will be amended or even better withdrawn.
  • #157
  • Jan 27, 2020 2:33pm Jan 27, 2020 2:33pm
update petition change.org:

https://www.change.org/p/bundesregie...te&utm_term=cs
  • #158
  • Jan 28, 2020 3:47am Jan 28, 2020 3:47am
Quoting Hutch
{quote} The biggest problem in most countries is that politicians keep making promises that the country's economy cannot afford to fulfill in the long run. Of course politicians don't bother making an analysis if the country can afford to fund these promises. Unfortunately people won't make an analysis either and will vote for the politician or the party that made the promises that will benefit them the most. Of course, sooner or later, as we say in the US "The chickens come home to roost" meaning that a solution must quickly be found to avert further...
Agree 100%. Politicians trade on votes. The pension system is theft everywhere. On average, a person that paid 30 or 40 years could buy maybe 3 houses at the end. The government, if at all,l will pay only 1 back. If the person dies before he loses everything. The other way, maybe he could leave his houses to his children, or give it away to charity.
  • #159
  • Jan 28, 2020 4:58am Jan 28, 2020 4:58am
Quoting thevisitor
https://financial-hacker.com/the-sch...tax/#more-3197
The article is fine, but there´s a couple of mistakes.
He mentions the only tradable assets left are Cryptocurrencies, but also Stocks and Forex are exempt.
It is basically against options and CFDs.In my experience, the "experts " of the Finance Ministry, have little understanding of modern trading. They understand options, cause they have been there for a long time, and was part of their "finance studies" for them to get the Public Servant job.
The move is clearly populist, and like mentioned in the article, the rest of the parties that voted for the law had little time to read it, and don´t understand it anyway.
The problem is that the vast majority of the Germans don´t understand it either. Germany has a decade long culture of "trading is bad", very bad. So hardly anybody will complain, except for the small trading community, a relatively small group.

So: Forex, Stocks or Cryptos is all there is left for the professional German Trader (for now).
  • #160
  • Jan 28, 2020 5:06am Jan 28, 2020 5:06am
Quoting cuchuflito
{quote} The article is fine, but there´s a couple of mistakes. He mentions the only tradable assets left are Cryptocurrencies, but also Stocks and Forex are exempt. It is basically against options and CFDs.In my experience, the "experts " of the Finance Ministry, have little understanding of modern trading. They understand options, cause they have been there for a long time, and was part of their "finance studies" for them to get the Public Servant job. The move is clearly populist, and like mentioned in the article, the rest of the parties that...
"For now" everything is available without any restrictions. Nothing changes for derivatives until 2021. We still have January and things are starting to pick up.

https://www.abgeordnetenwatch.de/pro...0-01-24/330999

Although he still didn't get what derivatives are since he only speaks about shares at the moment, the topic remains on discussion at the right spot (unlike this forum).
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