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In 2021, day trading in Germany will be dead

  • #81
  • Jan 21, 2020 10:53am Jan 21, 2020 10:53am
Quoting Drolph
{quote} So what? There are already associations (DSW, DDV .. just to name some) who told they are going to law. Once your tax bill arrives in 2022 you have to disagree with referrals to the ongoing lawsuits. Next to that you can take action by yourself in parallel. The artificially created scary atmosphere is a typical "german" attitude. Look at our french neighbours. They are protesting with success! You simply have to stand against this social democratic disgrace. Once again: BALLS! If right becomes wrong, resistance becomes a duty!
yes, action against our Finanzamt...very funny..
Ich hatte das Vergnügen mal...wenn du einen Steuerbescheid erhälst hast du erstmal zu zahlen..natürlich unter Vorbehalt.
Und ich kann dir sagen, wenn du nicht zahlts, dann f..... die dich.

Du bist dir über die Tragweite dieses Gesetzes nicht im Klaren.
Es ist ja kein Gesetzentwurf. Dieses Gesetz tritt ab 2021 in Kraft.
Ich habe meine gewissen Zweifel ob das Bundesverfassungsgericht
diesen Wahnsinn stoppen kann und wird.
Mittlerweile kann ich mir in diesem Land alles vorstelllen.

Und glaube mir:
Ich bin kein grundsätzlich negativ denkender Mensch. Im Gegenteil!

Mit den Franzosen gebe ich dir vollkommen Recht!
Die machen das super.
Nur wirst du das in Deutschland in dem Ausmass nie erleben..
Leider...
  • #82
  • Jan 21, 2020 11:06am Jan 21, 2020 11:06am
Quoting thevisitor
{quote} yes, action against our Finanzamt...very funny.. Ich hatte das Vergnügen mal...wenn du einen Steuerbescheid erhälst hast du erstmal zu zahlen..natürlich unter Vorbehalt. Und ich kann dir sagen, wenn du nicht zahlts, dann f..... die dich. Du bist dir über die Tragweite dieses Gesetzes nicht im Klaren. Es ist ja kein Gesetzentwurf. Dieses Gesetz tritt ab 2021 in Kraft. Ich habe meine gewissen Zweifel ob das Bundesverfassungsgericht diesen Wahnsinn stoppen kann und wird. Mittlerweile kann ich mir in diesem Land alles vorstelllen. Und glaube...
action means klagen! Du gehst damit zum Finanzgericht. Rechtsschutz ahoi. Zumal hier die Grund- als auch die Steuerrechte relativ eindeutig verletzt sind. Stichwort Leistungsprinzip und Nettoprinzip.

Keine Sorge, ich bin sehr gut im Bilde über die Tragweite. Aber angesichts der drückenden Beweislast wird dein zuständiges Finanzamt hier im Streitfall ihre wenig aussichtsreiche Position erkennen. Du bist nur der Dumme, wenn du dir alles gefallen lässt!

Vergleiche mit "ich hatte das mal" bringen keine Punkte. Es geht um diesen konkreten Sachverhalt. Und bei diesem ist die Sachlage relativ klar im Widerspruch zu bestehendem Recht. Was denkst du denn was los ist, wenn hier wirklich zehntausende wegen dem gleichen Gesetz klagen...
  • #83
  • Jan 21, 2020 11:31am Jan 21, 2020 11:31am
Ich bin kein Experte aber das Gesetz ist durch und damit erstmal...nunja Gesetz. Jetzt musst du nicht gegen das FA klagen sondern gegen das Gesetz ansich, damit festegestellt werden kann, ob es legitim ist oder mit dem Gesetz anderes geltendes Recht verletzt wird. Das Finanzamt ist erstmal auf der sicheren Seite, weil sie sich ja an geltendes Recht halten. Klagst du nun gegen das Gesetz, kannst du sicher sein, dass erstmal durch alle Instanzen geboxt wird, was jahrelange Verhandlungen bedeutet. Die Frage ist ob man rückwirkend sein Geld wiederbekommen würde, wenn das Gesetz im nachhinein als rechtswidrig angesehen wird.
  • #84
  • Jan 21, 2020 11:32am Jan 21, 2020 11:32am
Quoting Drolph
{quote} action means klagen! Du gehst damit zum Finanzgericht. Rechtsschutz ahoi. Zumal hier die Grund- als auch die Steuerrechte relativ eindeutig verletzt sind. Stichwort Leistungsprinzip und Nettoprinzip. Keine Sorge, ich bin sehr gut im Bilde über die Tragweite. Aber angesichts der drückenden Beweislast wird dein zuständiges Finanzamt hier im Streitfall ihre wenig aussichtsreiche Position erkennen. Du bist nur der Dumme, wenn du dir alles gefallen lässt! Vergleiche mit "ich hatte das mal" bringen keine Punkte. Es geht um diesen konkreten Sachverhalt....

Ich weiß schon was "action" bedeutet.

Dann klage mal gegen das Finanzamt...
Sollte deine RV dies überhaupt übernehmen ( die werden sich querstellen), musst du die Forderung des FA trotzdem bezahlen.
Da kann bei geltender Rechtsprechung jetzt ja einiges zusammen kommen...
Kannst dann versuchen deiner Kohle hinterherzurennnen!
  • #85
  • Jan 21, 2020 12:40pm Jan 21, 2020 12:40pm
Quoting KarmaPolice
Taxing profits is normal. But taxing profits without loss deduction is insane and unconstitutional.
In the US net short-term profits (less than one year) are taxed as normal income and long-term profits (more than one year) are taxed at a lower rate. I don't know anybody that keeps a forex trade opened more than one year. Since I'm a full time trader I was paying too much taxes so I just moved away from the US to a more friendly country that doesn't tax profits generated by trading forex. I don't know if the new German law is constitutional or not but I agree 100% with you that not deducting losses is totally insane. The German government wants its cake and eat it too
  • #86
  • Jan 21, 2020 2:46pm Jan 21, 2020 2:46pm
Quoting thevisitor
{quote} 0,2% transaction tax comparing with the new law only peanuts
Peanuts???
That´s 20 pips one way, meaning 20 pips to enter, 20 pips to exit.
Sure if you trade monthly bars, and a trade lasts for years , then I agree, peanuts.
  • #87
  • Jan 21, 2020 3:02pm Jan 21, 2020 3:02pm
Quoting thevisitor
What options for german traders remain? - stop trading (bad ..) - emigrate (bad ..) - establish GmbH / Holding (expensive, complex) Any suggestions?
Excellent question and that is the homework.
It is all about MM.
We, german traders need to do the math for different models.
For example:
-If you make 20000 Euros worth of profitable trades/10000 Euros worth of losses in the whole campaign (1 year).
Then nothing changed for you.

-If you make 20000 Euros worth of profit/and 190000 Euros worth of losses, then you are screwed...you pay 25% tax on 10000,(remember only 10000 are losses deductible,) end up with a net loss altogether.

-500000/450000 losses (still profitable right?), THEN you are screwed royally.
Please do the math, and correct me if I´m wrong, I´m a bit tired...
  • #88
  • Jan 21, 2020 3:09pm Jan 21, 2020 3:09pm
You have to stop trading for the year when you reach the 10k loss barrier everything else is too risky.

Honestly I'm already so fucked up by this topic.
  • #89
  • Jan 21, 2020 3:42pm Jan 21, 2020 3:42pm
Out of pure interest, I read few of the links provided here as well as on the the godmode trader articles but i couldn't find anything related to Forex. They are explicitly saying it about CFD. Are forex traders also somehow affected?

Anyways for my german fellow traders i found a petition :

https://www.change.org/p/bundesregie...ktur-estg-2021

I wish you guys good luck!
Your salary is the bribe they give you to forget your dreams
  • #90
  • Jan 21, 2020 3:46pm Jan 21, 2020 3:46pm
we are robots of the EU with a tax ID
that won't change, the next step is to get rid of cash



wir sind roboter der EU mit einer steuer ID
das wird sich nicht ändern,der nächste schritt ist das bargeld abzuschaffen
  • #91
  • Jan 21, 2020 4:06pm Jan 21, 2020 4:06pm
Quoting cuchuflito
{quote} Peanuts??? That´s 20 pips one way, meaning 20 pips to enter, 20 pips to exit. Sure if you trade monthly bars, and a trade lasts for years , then I agree, peanuts.
Transaction tax 0,2% only for stocks:

https://www.n-tv.de/politik/EU-Laend...e21521638.html
  • #92
  • Jan 21, 2020 4:18pm Jan 21, 2020 4:18pm
Quoting kette
we are robots of the EU with a tax ID that won't change, the next step is to get rid of cash wir sind roboter der EU mit einer steuer ID das wird sich nicht ändern,der nächste schritt ist das bargeld abzuschaffen
Unfortunately all countries that have an advanced economy want to get rid of cash for only one reason; with bail in laws in the books of most countries people will not be able to withdraw money from banks and will be stuck with the losses. Sad but as usual taxpayers will pay for the mistakes of those who run the economy.
  • #93
  • Jan 21, 2020 4:46pm Jan 21, 2020 4:46pm
Quoting horvat
Out of pure interest, I read few of the links provided here as well as on the the godmode trader articles but i couldn't find anything related to Forex. They are explicitly saying it about CFD. Are forex traders also somehow affected? Anyways for my german fellow traders i found a petition : https://www.change.org/p/bundesregie...ktur-estg-2021 I wish you guys good luck!
This is the petition from DSW (Deutsche Schutzvereinigung für Wertpapierbesitz e.V.)
http://www.dsw-info.de/steuerirrsinn
  • #94
  • Jan 21, 2020 4:54pm Jan 21, 2020 4:54pm
Quoting Jagg
{quote} This is the petition from DSW (Deutsche Schutzvereinigung für Wertpapierbesitz e.V.) http://www.dsw-info.de/steuerirrsinn
This petition is not specifically about the topic of this thread, but anyway an important petition.
  • #95
  • Jan 21, 2020 5:42pm Jan 21, 2020 5:42pm
Quoting thevisitor
What options for german traders remain? - stop trading (bad ..) - emigrate (bad ..) - establish GmbH / Holding (expensive, complex) Any suggestions?
I am from Germany but i actually never traded through a german broker nor not did i ever made a tax return with the indication of trading profits. As long as i am aware as a german resistent trading with a german broker the broker will handle all taxation? So, the 25% withholding tax on any profits will be automatically withheld and paid to the tax office by the broker.

I wonder how the new law should get applied in practice? So all your win/loss will be automatically re-calculated? With each trade? By the end of a year?

So lets say you end up with a minus -50.000 EUR by the end of a year (due to the new law). How does the broker want to make sure this 50k will be paid by the client?

German tax law always has been complicated, but this is really is killing it again....

So far i never paid any taxes at all on my rare trading profits. The broker i trade with doesn't care about german taxation and probably never will. Otherwise i will move again to a new broker until there is nothing left to find.
  • #96
  • Jan 21, 2020 5:45pm Jan 21, 2020 5:45pm
Quoting lddd
{quote} I am from Germany but i actually never traded through a german broker nor not did i ever made a tax return with the indication of trading profits. As long as i am aware as a german resistent trading with a german broker the broker will handle all taxation? So, the 25% withholding tax on any profits will be automatically withheld and paid to the tax office by the broker. I wonder how the new law should get applied in practice? So all your win/loss will be automatically re-calculated? With each trade? By the end of a year? So lets say you...
thank you, i want to change
your broker ???
  • #97
  • Jan 21, 2020 5:46pm Jan 21, 2020 5:46pm
Quoting MCFly
Ich bin kein Experte aber das Gesetz ist durch und damit erstmal...nunja Gesetz. Jetzt musst du nicht gegen das FA klagen sondern gegen das Gesetz ansich, damit festegestellt werden kann, ob es legitim ist oder mit dem Gesetz anderes geltendes Recht verletzt wird. Das Finanzamt ist erstmal auf der sicheren Seite, weil sie sich ja an geltendes Recht halten. Klagst du nun gegen das Gesetz, kannst du sicher sein, dass erstmal durch alle Instanzen geboxt wird, was jahrelange Verhandlungen bedeutet. Die Frage ist ob man rückwirkend sein Geld wiederbekommen...
I am switching back to English here since we are in an English-speaking forum.

Your answer perfectly illustrates what I was trying to describe. Negativity, drawing hypothetical worst case situations out of assumptions, acting like a coward. Nothing personal, just a typical german attitude.

Once again, it will not happen. Not only by common sense. It is a systematical error breaking elementary tax laws. That is why everyone should resist. Have a look at this explanation for example to save myself time for long statements. Makes all you calculations obsolete.

Inserted Video


(unfortunately a german speaking video as well)
  • #98
  • Jan 21, 2020 6:58pm Jan 21, 2020 6:58pm
Quoting kette
{quote} thank you, i want to change your broker ???
ECN account with Fxopen.com for quiet a few years now. Never had problems with them so far.

However i don't trade for a living and my account size is only in the mid 5 figures region. I did a few withdrawals in the past but not really tax relevant. I also don't think they report accounts automatically to the tax office but i am not 100% sure. You will have to do the reports by your self once taken out any profits i think.

But i still wonder how this kind of new tax law with a german/eu wide broker should look like in practice then, i mean they would have to shut down services or would it mean you just have to report/pay these new taxes by the end of the year to the tax office by your self?
  • #99
  • Edited 11:44pm Jan 21, 2020 11:19pm | Edited 11:44pm
Quoting Drolph
{quote} I am switching back to English here since we are in an English-speaking forum. Your answer perfectly illustrates what I was trying to describe. Negativity, drawing hypothetical worst case situations out of assumptions, acting like a coward. Nothing personal, just a typical german attitude. Once again, it will not happen. Not only by common sense. It is a systematical error breaking elementary tax laws. That is why everyone should resist. Have a look at this explanation for example to save myself time for long statements. Makes all you calculations...

I understand, and it gives some hope but
-How long will it take?
-One thing is "negativity, and acting like a coward", the other is "ignorance", which literally means to "ignore". (nothing personal).
-The fact is the law has passed.
-The fact is, it most likely it will take a long time to change.
I just cannot ignore the facts.
Granted, the fact is it is basically against the Deutsches Grundgesetzt.
Fact is also, you cannot expect 10000 people demonstrating against it, most Germans don´t like "Spekulanten" anyway, and probably agree with the law. They would rather play Lotto, which belongs to the State anyway.
Fact is also, the intention ist to destroy speculation, (originally the idea came after the 2018 crisis), so the idea that "they cannot do that" is just weak.
Someone wrote this under that you toube vdeo
"Bis das Gesetz abgeändert bzw. komplett eingestampft wird, muss das Bundesverfassungsgericht sich damit beschäftigen. Dazu bedarf es aber einer Klage und Geschädigte, die wird es vor 2022 nicht geben. "
  • #100
  • Jan 21, 2020 11:23pm Jan 21, 2020 11:23pm
Solution: close the shop, ask for Social Security (Harz IV), let Scholz then pay for your rent, insurance, retirement, GEZ Gebühren, Rente und Kirchensteuer.
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