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In 2021, day trading in Germany will be dead

  • #61
  • Jan 21, 2020 3:24am Jan 21, 2020 3:24am
This will be the water for prop-firms mill.
The5ers, BluFX etc.
Trading there avoids taxation of positions.

SP
  • #62
  • Jan 21, 2020 3:36am Jan 21, 2020 3:36am
Quoting MCFly
{quote} I don't get it. Why does the trader has to pay tax for losses? He has to pay for wins minus the 10.000 EUR of losses. I can't find a hint on your godmode-trader link.
I guess you are right, it is the other way around, you cannot deduct all your losses, but with leverage, you could pay massively on your "Gewinn", damage can be exponential. Talk about negative balance, even with a winning account. Wonder how many traders will get trapped. The nicest is that they want to protect the small traders, and they are making a law that could potentially ruin them.
  • #63
  • Jan 21, 2020 3:42am Jan 21, 2020 3:42am
Quoting cuchuflito
{quote} Beispiel 3: Trader C handelt mit sehr hohen Volumina Futures und Optionen an der Eurex und an US-Terminbörsen. Obwohl er kein sehr großes Konto hat, handelt er mit hohen Beträgen. Dies ist möglich, weil bei Terminkontrakten nur eine vergleichsweise geringe Margin hinterlegt werden muss. Die von Trader C gehandelten Beträge sind wegen des Hebeleffekts also deutlich höher als sein Vermögen. In einem typischen Jahr hat Trader C Bruttogewinne von 790.000 Euro und Bruttoverluste in Höhe von 695.000 Euro. Auf die Differenz von 95.000 Euro fiel...
Absolut pervers..
  • #64
  • Jan 21, 2020 4:08am Jan 21, 2020 4:08am
Question: I trade full time via a funded account (like topstep, oneuptrader etc) i.e. you pay a monthly fee and they give you the money to trade with and keep 20% of the money. how would something like this be considered by this law? I mean at the end of the day.. you are not trading your money
  • #65
  • Jan 21, 2020 4:29am Jan 21, 2020 4:29am
Quoting Martingale
Question: I trade full time via a funded account (like topstep, oneuptrader etc) i.e. you pay a monthly fee and they give you the money to trade with and keep 20% of the money. how would something like this be considered by this law? I mean at the end of the day.. you are not trading your money
l I understand you are Italian, different laws.I will check those, maybe that could be an option for a german, but 20% is not cheap,
  • #66
  • Jan 21, 2020 4:35am Jan 21, 2020 4:35am
What options for german traders remain?

- stop trading (bad ..)

- emigrate (bad ..)

- establish GmbH / Holding (expensive, complex)

Any suggestions?
  • #67
  • Jan 21, 2020 4:39am Jan 21, 2020 4:39am
And al little good news for the german traders: this came out today in Handelsballt, on the good old Tobin Tax, yes they want that too!!

https://www.handelsblatt.com/politik.../25454966.html
  • #68
  • Jan 21, 2020 4:41am Jan 21, 2020 4:41am
Just on the side, they asked the German Finanzminister a while ago on TV, where are his savings?
Answer: "Sparbuch", that shows you how much he understands his business.(socialist of course).
  • #69
  • Jan 21, 2020 4:44am Jan 21, 2020 4:44am
Quoting cuchuflito
And al little good news for the german traders: this came out today in Handelsballt, on the good old Tobin Tax, yes they want that too!! https://www.handelsblatt.com/politik.../25454966.html

0,2% transaction tax
comparing with the new law only peanuts
  • #70
  • Jan 21, 2020 4:48am Jan 21, 2020 4:48am
Solution: make your first million in 2020, then move to Cuba, at least they are real communists, and the music is better.
  • #71
  • Edited 5:14am Jan 21, 2020 4:56am | Edited 5:14am
Quoting cuchuflito
{quote} Beispiel 3: Trader C handelt mit sehr hohen Volumina Futures und Optionen an der Eurex und an US-Terminbörsen. Obwohl er kein sehr großes Konto hat, handelt er mit hohen Beträgen. Dies ist möglich, weil bei Terminkontrakten nur eine vergleichsweise geringe Margin hinterlegt werden muss. Die von Trader C gehandelten Beträge sind wegen des Hebeleffekts also deutlich höher als sein Vermögen. In einem typischen Jahr hat Trader C Bruttogewinne von 790.000 Euro und Bruttoverluste in Höhe von 695.000 Euro. Auf die Differenz von 95.000 Euro fiel...
I have read it and I think I have understand it but I don't see the difference to my example on post 1.
  • #72
  • Jan 21, 2020 5:21am Jan 21, 2020 5:21am
Quoting MCFly
{quote} I have read it and I think I have understood it but I don't see the difference to my example on post 1.
Yes, except for leverage, if you had a 50000 Euro account and traded heavy and frequently, and you are very good, you might have made the 200000 Euro profit, but the tax you calculated (Tax to pay (1.200.000-10.000)*0.25=297.500 EUR)leaves you with double the size of your account in red. So although you made money, you end up in heavy debt,(-97.500 EUR) which is completely bizarre.

When you buy or sell a full lot, for the Finanzamt, that is what you bought, or sold (i.e . traded) if you borrowed that from your broker (margin), that is your problem. Everything was fair, as long as you could deduce your expenses from your gains like in any logical country.

Back to square one, it is not only the end of forex day-trading for germans, but there is also a very high risk of ruining your financial situation badly if you don´t realize what is happening here with leverage.
Of course, trade 1 lot, and let it run for a couple of years, and you have nothing to worry about..
  • #73
  • Jan 21, 2020 5:53am Jan 21, 2020 5:53am
They should focus on Deutsche Banks derivatives instead of hunting small traders into bankruptcy

"NEW YORK (Reuters) - Deutsche Bank AG’s (DBKGn.DE) turnaround strategy rests in large part on shedding 288 billion euros of unwanted assets. Three bank insiders said it will take years, tying up capital that could have generated income of 500 million euros ($557 million) a year."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-d...-idUSKCN1UI2TT
  • #74
  • Jan 21, 2020 5:54am Jan 21, 2020 5:54am
Quoting cuchuflito
{quote} Yes, except for leverage, if you had a 50000 Euro account and traded heavy and frequently, and you are very good, you might have made the 200000 Euro profit, but the tax you calculated (Tax to pay (1.200.000-10.000)*0.25=297.500 EUR)leaves you with double the size of your account in red. So although you made money, you end up in heavy debt,(-97.500 EUR) which is completely bizarre. When you buy or sell a full lot, for the Finanzamt, that is what you bought, or sold (i.e . traded) if you borrowed that from your broker (margin), that is your...
You should stop panicing a bit. This thing will definitely go to law and beeing crushed afterwards for sure. Furthermore we have general elections in the upcoming year, so there might be still something happening until then.

Balls my friend. Fight for your rights!
  • #75
  • Jan 21, 2020 6:00am Jan 21, 2020 6:00am
Quoting Drolph
{quote} You should stop panicing a bit. This thing will definitely go to law and beeing crushed afterwards for sure. Furthermore we have general elections in the upcoming year, so there might be still something happening until then. Balls my friend. Fight for your rights!
this can take years...
  • #76
  • Jan 21, 2020 6:50am Jan 21, 2020 6:50am
as long as i can use an offshore broker, i will use it... if i manage to make big money and my fkn government decides to tax me like that, i just take the money, leave and never come back in this goddamn mess of a country.
  • #77
  • Jan 21, 2020 7:43am Jan 21, 2020 7:43am
The profitable forex trader don't exist, so I guess it will not be a problem
  • #78
  • Jan 21, 2020 7:49am Jan 21, 2020 7:49am
Quoting mtruefx
The profitable forex trader don't exist, so I guess it will not be a problem
wrong thread....
  • #79
  • Jan 21, 2020 8:33am Jan 21, 2020 8:33am
Why everybody thinks an offshore broker will solve the problem. You try to commit tax evasion and it's not that hard for the Finanzamt to figure out what's going on.
  • #80
  • Jan 21, 2020 9:28am Jan 21, 2020 9:28am
Quoting thevisitor
{quote} this can take years...
So what? There are already associations (DSW, DDV .. just to name some) who told they are going to law. Once your tax bill arrives in 2022 you have to disagree with referrals to the ongoing lawsuits.

Next to that you can take action by yourself in parallel.

The artificially created scary atmosphere is a typical "german" attitude. Look at our french neighbours. They are protesting with success! You simply have to stand against this social democratic disgrace. Once again: BALLS!

If right becomes wrong, resistance becomes a duty!
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