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In 2021, day trading in Germany will be dead

  • #41
  • Jan 20, 2020 5:30pm Jan 20, 2020 5:30pm
The big problem in Germany, demented politicians, is why profits are taxed, the money we invest has already been taxed
  • #42
  • Jan 20, 2020 6:06pm Jan 20, 2020 6:06pm
Taxing profits is normal. But taxing profits without loss deduction is insane and unconstitutional.
  • #43
  • Jan 20, 2020 6:24pm Jan 20, 2020 6:24pm
Quoting KarmaPolice
Taxing profits is normal. But taxing profits without loss deduction is insane and unconstitutional.
Please see what happens to our taxes, it will be given away. Democracy is over
we have no way of doing anything about it because we are not responsible for referendums but we should choose those in berlin
that's how it is with the GEZ and many other things
or up to 70 work as a craftsman i'm a roofer
  • #44
  • Jan 20, 2020 6:31pm Jan 20, 2020 6:31pm
there is a lack of money for the refugees who attacked my son with a girlfriend (WITH KNIFE), or who wanted to steal the handbag from my friend and insulted us as nazis
you tell the truth until you are a right, our country mercilessly goes down the drain
  • #45
  • Jan 21, 2020 1:38am Jan 21, 2020 1:38am
Quoting MCFly
Really bad news for all german forex traders: The german left wing government -yes unfortunately nearly all german parties are leftist nowadays- has passed a law which will change the way how wins and losses resulting from trading derivatives (which includes forex) are treated by taxation. At the moment it is common at the end of the year to offset wins and losses in order to pay a 25% tax on the wins or zero tax when the losses were larger than the wins. After the law will be introduced it will only be possible to offset max 10.000 EUR of losses....

It is actually MUCH WORSE, cause your "less realistic example" of 1.200.000 EUR includes leverage.
Meaning, a trader might have a 10000 account, using a 50: leverage, he could easily be trading full lots, he might double his account at the end of the year, but every time he lost a full lot it starts to accumulate on taxes...if he day- trades, say he loses a lot a week on average...that´s 4 lot´s a month, 47 lots a year he will have to pay taxes on (1 lot they "forgive you").(yes they charge you tax on losses)!!!!!!
He will double his account(cause he is a very good trader), but his taxes on leveraged trading will be 25% of 470000= -117.500 EUROS. Hard to believe but true, this is not socialism, it is communism.

https://www.godmode-trader.de/artike...bilanz,8033150
  • #46
  • Jan 21, 2020 1:42am Jan 21, 2020 1:42am
Quoting KarmaPolice
I think this new law is about what they call Termingeschäfte, but Forex trading with MT4 is not what they call Termingeschäfte in Germany.
Sorry but wrong, Forex trading with leverage is dead in Germany, and that even without the FTS that might still come on top.
  • #47
  • Jan 21, 2020 1:46am Jan 21, 2020 1:46am
Quoting thevisitor
Hello, another limitation of our m.f. german government!! I do not know exactly whether it is enforceable in its current form. It may not be compatible with the German Basic Law. How should direct taxation work if I trade through a foreign broker? Do i miss something?? Regards..und liebe Grüße nach Berlin

It already passed as law, they will probably be legally contested but could take years...
EVERY FOREX TRADER IN GERMANY BEWARE!!!! if you are trading with leverage, you could end up losing your house, even if you ended up the year with a profitable trading account, YOUR LEVERAGED LOSSES WILL BE TAXED, ALMOST FULLY.
Please Google the new law before you get in troubles.
  • #48
  • Jan 21, 2020 1:51am Jan 21, 2020 1:51am
To clarify, please read this article from Godmode trader (reputable online trading forum in Germany).
Here´s the whole explanation, in detailed numbers.
Believe me guys, Forex trading in Germany is history, even worse, highly dangerous, even being slightly profitable, could make you literally bankrupt, if you trade often with leverage.

https://www.godmode-trader.de/artike...bilanz,8033150
  • #49
  • Jan 21, 2020 1:53am Jan 21, 2020 1:53am
Quoting thevisitor
{quote} waste of time and money... i do love trading forex and no restriction will never ever change this ..
you are wrong sir, aufpassen, es ist schon vorbei!!!!
  • #50
  • Jan 21, 2020 1:56am Jan 21, 2020 1:56am
Quoting thevisitor
The problem is that the big boys (hedge funds etc.) are not affected ... that's a big, big scam!! only the "small " trader and investor is the big a$$...!!
Wrong that is not your problem or mine brother, the problem is that they finally destroyed it, even before the Finanztransaktionsteuer passed.
  • #51
  • Jan 21, 2020 1:59am Jan 21, 2020 1:59am
Quoting zekin
{quote} What happens if total profits from winning trades are 100 000 Euro and total loss of losing trades are 100 000 Euro Total profit is 0 But what will the tax be?
25% of 90.000 (10000 is tax free).
-22.500
And that includes LEVERAGE, for the German Government, every time you trade with leverage THAT IS WHAT YOU TRADE, the margin issue is just between you and your broker!!!
  • #52
  • Jan 21, 2020 2:01am Jan 21, 2020 2:01am
Quoting TraderTero
{quote} "The new regulation seems to violate a number of principles of fair taxation, including the so-called performance principle and the so-called net principle. It is therefore to be hoped that the legislature may have some insight itself and the catastrophic new regulation will be overturned. On the other hand, there is also hope that lawsuits will be brought against the law change." Probably also against EU regulations or would be challenged on EU courts.
Yes the lawsuits will come, but the law is already active, lawsuits might take decades.
  • #53
  • Jan 21, 2020 2:03am Jan 21, 2020 2:03am
Quoting deltaone
Nichts wird so heiß gegessen wie es gekocht wird. Dieses Gesetz wird nicht im Bundesanzeiger veröffentlicht werden. Und selbst wenn, hat die Klage dagegen vor dem BVerfG gute Aussicht auf Erfolg. Bis dahin gilt: move your brokerage account, or better: set up a company and run your business as a professional. problem solved.
Yes that makes sense, wonder the paperwork implications and capital requirements.
  • #54
  • Jan 21, 2020 2:25am Jan 21, 2020 2:25am
At first I thought it won't be that bad ... but the more I deal with the topic, the more the anger grabs me !!
Absolutely perverted law!
Decided just before Christmas ...
This government is the last ... Abschaum!
How's the deal with trading through offshore broker ?
  • #55
  • Jan 21, 2020 2:40am Jan 21, 2020 2:40am
Quoting Redbaron81
Jesus...if this passes in Germany I can just see the liberal government doing the same dumb as fuck shit here in Canada...fucking morons all around. How does this even make sense to them...unreal.
It already passed!
  • #56
  • Jan 21, 2020 2:54am Jan 21, 2020 2:54am
I am a german citizen, I need to investigate deeper.
Forex, at least for the small leverage I use, but still trade frequently, is FINISHED, (or well one more year left.)
I trade through OANDA, 16 pairs, 8 currencies, and 8 commodities.
Now the way the CFDs at OANDA work with COMMODITY leverage, the volume is much smaller:
EXAMPLE a typical 240 min. trade on Copper, risking 8 Euros, with a normal swing stop, would have a volume of 200 units.
The same risk on a currency pair would have a volume of 3000 units.
You can easily see, that with the latter, even if profitable at the end of the year if I get a normal, once a week (or more ) losing trade.
I would add up a volume of 144000 EUROS loss, with a tax of 35500!!!!!!!!!!!

With the copper trade: 9600 loss, tax-free on the losses of that underlying. (still have to pay taxes if profitable.
Anyway, this is just for my fellow german traders to study, it´s just an idea, and I´m not sure of the numbers, cause there´s another variable with Oanda´s way of calculating lot size volume..
Lot´s of homework..
  • #57
  • Jan 21, 2020 3:00am Jan 21, 2020 3:00am
Quoting cuchuflito
{quote} It is actually MUCH WORSE, cause your "less realistic example" of 1.200.000 EUR includes leverage. Meaning, a trader might have a 10000 account, using a 50: leverage, he could easily be trading full lots, he might double his account at the end of the year, but every time he lost a full lot it starts to accumulate on taxes...if he day- trades, say he loses a lot a week on average...that´s 4 lot´s a month, 47 lots a year he will have to pay taxes on (1 lot they "forgive you").(yes they charge you tax on losses)!!!!!! He will double...
I don't get it. Why does the trader has to pay tax for losses? He has to pay for wins minus the 10.000 EUR of losses. I can't find a hint on your godmode-trader link.
  • #58
  • Jan 21, 2020 3:08am Jan 21, 2020 3:08am
Quoting cuchuflito
{quote} 25% of 90.000 (10000 is tax free). -22.500 And that includes LEVERAGE, for the German Government, every time you trade with leverage THAT IS WHAT YOU TRADE, the margin issue is just between you and your broker!!!
They need to fix that because that kind of situation would be impossible. There is still time until 2021.
CDU is in power in Germany so don't blame the liberals and leftists for this.
  • #59
  • Jan 21, 2020 3:15am Jan 21, 2020 3:15am
Quoting MCFly
{quote} I don't get it. Why does the trader has to pay tax for losses? He has to pay for wins minus the 10.000 EUR of losses. I can't find a hint on your godmode-trader link.
Please read carefully, also watch the video provided at the beginning of the thread, where a Steurberater, specialized on trading accounts, explains it better than me.
  • #60
  • Jan 21, 2020 3:23am Jan 21, 2020 3:23am
Quoting MCFly
{quote} I don't get it. Why does the trader has to pay tax for losses? He has to pay for wins minus the 10.000 EUR of losses. I can't find a hint on your godmode-trader link.

Beispiel 3: Trader C handelt mit sehr hohen Volumina Futures und Optionen an der Eurex und an US-Terminbörsen. Obwohl er kein sehr großes Konto hat, handelt er mit hohen Beträgen. Dies ist möglich, weil bei Terminkontrakten nur eine vergleichsweise geringe Margin hinterlegt werden muss. Die von Trader C gehandelten Beträge sind wegen des Hebeleffekts also deutlich höher als sein Vermögen. In einem typischen Jahr hat Trader C Bruttogewinne von 790.000 Euro und Bruttoverluste in Höhe von 695.000 Euro.

  1. Auf die Differenz von 95.000 Euro fiel bisher Abgeltungsteuer in Höhe von 25 Prozent beziehungsweise 23.750 Euro an. Unter dem Strich verblieb Trader C bisher ein Nettogewinn von 71.250 Euro, von dem er seinen Lebensunterhalt bestritt.
  2. Die Belastungen durch die begrenzte Verlustverrechnung von Termingeschäften ist für Trader C extrem! Künftig kann er nur noch 10.000 Euro von den Bruttogewinnen von 790.000 Euro abziehen, muss also 780.000 Euro versteuern. Die Steuerlast erhöht sich dadurch extrem von 23.750 Euro auf 195.000 Euro!
  3. Verblieb dem Trader unter dem Strich bisher ein Nettogewinn von 71.250 Euro, so hat er künftig einen Verlust von 100.000 Euro (790.000 Euro Bruttogewinne minus 695.000 Euro Bruttoverluste minus Abgeltungsteuer von 197.500 Euro).
  4. Fazit: Sein bisheriges Trading ist für Trader C durch die Steueränderung nicht mehr profitabel. Trader C, der bisher vom Trading lebte, hat im Wesentlichen drei Möglichkeiten, wie es für ihn weitergehen kann. Möglichkeit 1: Er stellt sein Trading komplett ein oder handelt nur noch mit Aktien und ETFs.

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