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Attachments: Breaking: Australian Parliament Passes Product Intervention
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Breaking: Australian Parliament Passes Product Intervention

  • #61
  • Aug 23, 2019 4:56am Aug 23, 2019 4:56am
Yep, the end of retail fx is here. Regulators want us to buy stocks..
  • #62
  • Aug 23, 2019 6:30am Aug 23, 2019 6:30am
Quoting Bicarus
{quote} there is negotiation. draft a letter with your concerns from a retail client's pov and send it to [email protected] ("[email protected]") ASIC is making decisions from data collected from brokers and AFCA. would be good if they heard from word on the street about legitimate concerns on execution/manipulation/au brokers move clients offshore etc
I am confident ASIC has made their decision, and it wont be changing.
The speed with which they produced this paper so soon after the close of the "consultation" period ended tells me the decision has already been made; and likely made well before the end of the "consultation" period.

Plus, ASIC is an IOSCO member ,......when you are a club member you do what the other members do, otherwise why are you a member!

Finally, what is a good counter-argument to the pending changes?
It can be argued reducing leverage wont stop losers from losing, and I agree, however I suspect it will detour at least some of them.
And that will be a success as far as ASIC is concerned.

20:1 is the future of retail FX in Australia. And personally I am at peace with that.
  • #63
  • Aug 23, 2019 8:45am Aug 23, 2019 8:45am
Quoting PeterE
{quote} There is no negotiation with this proposal, 20:1 is the new max fx leverage in Aus. The question now is when does it commence?.....before the year is out is my guess! I've already switched my account to 20:1. May as well get used to it.
what can i say , i just hope the ASIC guys will get enlightened and withdraw the whole proposal , they ' re making an awful blunder which could wreak havoc on retail FX in Australia

unfortunately politicians and regulators always seem to choose the worst solution available , though this time i thought they would be smarter than the rest , but apparently they are not
  • #64
  • Aug 23, 2019 8:58am Aug 23, 2019 8:58am
Sad lol

Looking for some answers/insights from the folks here in this thread on the following -

1) Apart from Tickmill (Seychelles) and Tickmill (UK & Cyprus - professional account) , can anybody suggest reputable off shore brokers that provide 1:300-1:500 leverage and low costs (spreads/commissions) ?

2) ASIC mentioned that October 1st is the last day to send in comments (or along those lines). Any opinions on actually when the 1:20 will be implemented i.e. come in force for Aussie brokers ?

3) Would Australian residents be prevented from setting up accounts with off shore brokers ? i.e. all Australian residents can only trade fx with ASIC regulated brokers.
Considering that those in Europe have been moving to Aussie brokers, I doubt they would make it mandatory for Australian residents to only trade with ASIC regulated brokers.



.......Thoughts ?
  • #65
  • Aug 23, 2019 7:12pm Aug 23, 2019 7:12pm
view this document

‘Regulatory arbitrage’ refers to persons attempting to benefit from differences in regulation between jurisdictions -- refer page 39

and, why the changes will be implemented this year -- refer page 48, item 166

and why 20:1 is here to stay -- refer items 170, 171, 174, 175, 178, 179, 180
  • #66
  • Aug 24, 2019 4:29am Aug 24, 2019 4:29am
Stay calm guys. You can always get high leverage! The only difference is that in the future the brokers will not be able to advertise officially the high leverage option they offer.
You just have to negotiate privately. Many brokers will be happy to do business with you especially if you are high volume scalper.

You see, there is small difference. Now you get the high leverage by default. In the future you will have to request the high leverage.
  • #67
  • Aug 24, 2019 6:55am Aug 24, 2019 6:55am
you sure about that ?
  • #68
  • Aug 24, 2019 7:37am Aug 24, 2019 7:37am
Quoting MXT
you sure about that ?
Simply ask your brokers.....and please, keep it quiet!

Let's not alert the regulators anymore. Because ALL of these ridiculous regulations are coming as a direct result from thousands of complaints of dumb and incompetent retail traders that lost their money because they don't know what they are doing.
You see, here is the problem - the traders demanded from the regulators to do something and to save them from their own stupidity.
  • #69
  • Aug 24, 2019 8:00am Aug 24, 2019 8:00am
Quoting MXT
you sure about that ?
High leverage will probably always exist. Only not under ASIC or ESMA/FCA regulation. Many traders went to Australian brokers when the ESMA capped leverage. Now they are going to less or unregulated offshore brokers.
  • #70
  • Aug 24, 2019 8:01am Aug 24, 2019 8:01am
Quoting alphaomega
{quote} Simply ask your brokers.....and please, keep it quiet! Let's not alert the regulators anymore. Because ALL of these ridiculous regulations are coming as a direct result from thousands of complaints of dumb and incompetent retail traders that lost their money because they don't know what they are doing. You see, here is the problem - the traders demanded from the regulators to do something and to save them from their own stupidity.
Why would a broker go against ASIC or ESMA/FCA rules if they can move to other jurisdictions? People talk, they can never keep it quiet. Look to yourself, you publish it on a public forum. That is never going to work.
  • #71
  • Aug 24, 2019 8:52am Aug 24, 2019 8:52am
Quoting alphaomega
Stay calm guys. You can always get high leverage! The only difference is that in the future the brokers will not be able to advertise officially the high leverage option they offer. You just have to negotiate privately. Many brokers will be happy to do business with you especially if you are high volume scalper. You see, there is small difference. Now you get the high leverage by default. In the future you will have to request the high leverage.

Just keep it quiet and no one will ever know ya reckon.
those ASIC fines $$$$$$$.....they are for everyone else not me!!
  • #72
  • Aug 24, 2019 9:14am Aug 24, 2019 9:14am
Quoting PeterE
{quote} Just keep it quiet and no one will ever know ya reckon. those ASIC fines $$$$$$$.....they are for everyone else not me!!
Look, right now the maximum leverage in USA is 50:1, in EU it's 30:1 and in Japan it's 25:1.

And you know what? In all of these places, right now you can easily get 100:1 and in some cases even up to 500:1 if you know where, who and what to ask.

But indeed, maybe I should stop talking about this.....and keep it quiet.
  • #73
  • Edited Aug 25, 2019 5:24am Aug 24, 2019 10:21am | Edited Aug 25, 2019 5:24am
Quoting alphaomega
{quote} Look, right now the maximum leverage in USA is 50:1, in EU it's 30:1 and in Japan it's 25:1. And you know what? In all of these places, right now you can easily get 100:1 and in some cases even up to 500:1 if you know where, who and what to ask. But indeed, maybe I should stop talking about this.....and keep it quiet.
that ' s why i asked , i know of other traders in Japan and other low leverage locations getting 500 : 1 just the same , so there is a possible workaround

but let 's follow your advice and keep it quite my friend
  • #74
  • Aug 24, 2019 4:43pm Aug 24, 2019 4:43pm
Quoting alphaomega
{quote} Look, right now the maximum leverage in USA is 50:1, in EU it's 30:1 and in Japan it's 25:1. And you know what? In all of these places, right now you can easily get 100:1 and in some cases even up to 500:1 if you know where, who and what to ask. But indeed, maybe I should stop talking about this.....and keep it quiet.
Yes, you can go to country X and get your desired leverage. That has never been in question.

But,

1] ASIC will likely deter it's citizens from doing that by issuing them fines.
2] ASIC will also encourage brokers not to provide its citizens with leverage greater than 20:1.
3] The brokers who dont care for this request will likely be the untrustworthy ones. The ones that like to manipulate your charts and mess with your orders.
  • #75
  • Edited 3:13am Aug 25, 2019 1:21am | Edited 3:13am
Being in , the key takeaway I'm getting is that AU brokers will not be allowed to advertise their high leverage products next to their regulated products.
I'm currently with IC Markets so will be interested to see what they do with their Seychelles office that was set up to take on all of their OS clients, before ASIC backed down on their rushed enforcement after industry outcry the timelines were impossible to meet.
My guess is it will be transitioned to an independent entity instead of a subsidiary, probably with a similar though not identical business name.
ICS Markets anyone..?

ASIC Report (p.39):
‘Regulatory arbitrage’ refers to persons attempting to benefit from differences in regulation between jurisdictions. For example, an entity may establish a subsidiary in a jurisdiction that it perceives has more lenient regulatory requirements and then direct its clients to transact through that subsidiary.
We will continue to closely monitor for ‘regulatory arbitrage’, and other potential avoidance practice by issuers which undermine or attempt to work around the intended purpose of our proposed intervention. If significant consumer detriment persists we will consider further intervention.

So how many complaints will ASIC receive from an independent entity under FSA regulation: Zero. Thus, ASIC awareness of consumer detriment: Nil.

It's worth remembering that ASIC officials don't actually give a crap about protecting anyone. Only that they can meet their KPI's to pass oversight from the Minister for Finance's office and Senate committees.
If they damage the retail broking sector and actually cause traders to take increased risks in the process, not a problem..
  • #76
  • Edited 4:54am Aug 25, 2019 4:24am | Edited 4:54am
Quoting PeterE
{quote} I am confident ASIC has made their decision, and it wont be changing. The speed with which they produced this paper so soon after the close of the "consultation" period ended tells me the decision has already been made; and likely made well before the end of the "consultation" period. Plus, ASIC is an IOSCO member ,......when you are a club member you do what the other...
well if u take it lying down then suit yourself. IOSCO did not demand limiting leverage to a meager 20. in fact they encouraged more prudent KYC.

attached is a letter cc-ed to me and sent to ASIC. signed by a couple of prop firms ceos in Australia speaking as a group on behalf of the profitable clients according to asic's statistics, have attached the gist, remaining part of letter is marked p&c.. least they are giving suggestions, kuddos.

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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  • #77
  • Aug 25, 2019 6:27am Aug 25, 2019 6:27am
Quoting Bicarus
{quote} well if u take it lying down then suit yourself.

I'm not taking anything lying down. The margin changes make little difference to me.
I am merely pointing out why it is very likely 20:1 is here to stay.

Regarding your letter, it may make you feel better to send it, but I suspect it will have little effect.
ASIC is interested in statistically significant findings undertaken by qualified researchers to support their decision.
....Refer item 174 onwards of "Product intervention: OTC binary options and CFDs".

That said, one angle that ASIC may be swayed by is to present the argument that "competent" traders be given access to greater leverage. For example, those whose accounts are at least 2 years old, profitable and regularly traded. After all why should the profitable traders be punished for the poor traders performance!

Anyway, proceed with your efforts, I hope you get your wish.
  • #78
  • Edited 7:40am Aug 25, 2019 7:16am | Edited 7:40am
Quoting PeterE
{quote} I'm not taking anything lying down. The margin changes make little difference to me. I am merely pointing out why it is very likely 20:1 is here to stay. Regarding your letter, it may make you feel better to send it, but I suspect it will have little effect. ASIC is interested in statistically significant findings undertaken by qualified researchers to support their decision. ....Refer item 174 onwards of "Product intervention: OTC binary options and CFDs". That said, one angle that ASIC may be swayed by is to present the argument that "competent"...
first and foremost, it doesnt affect me if i get leverage or not. in the grand scheme of things. it only affects me how many order sent from these brokers that i can book.

secondly. as i said there are stats which have been left out due to p&c reasons.

well if it doesnt affect u and you are okay with it, guess u shouldnt be making your case here now should you?

quoting paragraphs, with the inept lack of understanding of how internal regulatory measures and consultation occures.

perhaps start your own thread convincing others that 20 lev is beneficial the same way you see it.

as for these reasons and that you are okay with leverage. in order to prevent you from diverting off the crux of the matter, which is how to deal with the leverage crunch and getting pushed offshore. i am prohibiting you from posting on this thread going forward. no other ill intent


regards
Bicarus
  • #79
  • Aug 26, 2019 9:11am Aug 26, 2019 9:11am
In my submission to ASIC I made a series of suggestions along the lines of;

- Limit leverage for new traders only

- Force new traders to demonstrate they can turn a consistent profit on demo accounts before a broker allows them to use a live account

- Force new traders to take some exam to make sure they understand cfd fundamentals and leverage

In my view, all of these suggestions are way more effective than the arbitrary BS they are copying from other countries.


Also, I saw IG has 200:1 in Switzerland - is this a viable option? Or are the Swiss going to come down on this as well?
  • #80
  • Aug 27, 2019 4:48am Aug 27, 2019 4:48am
what are the options for England and NZ? are they also capped in leverage?
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