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The word DISCIPLINE is overused

  • #21
  • Aug 10, 2019 5:11pm Aug 10, 2019 5:11pm
Quoting Mingary
{quote} So each one of your trade is a winner, like 100% of the time ?
it is clear that your understanding begins with hope which then leads to shock that is followed by horror and ending with hate. Ask a florist to fix an engine then take the florist"s report of what went wrong as the reason engineering is BS.

getting a trade wrong has nothing to do with randomness it has everything to do with one or more of the following

 

  1. BS analysis
  2. overlooked information
  3. don't understand what's going on
  4. only focusing on TA
  5. bad timing
  6. wrong trade management
  7. no idea on what to do if the market changes or how to identify it
  8. .
  9. ......


the list is long. Why have you settled on randomness as your excuse for being unsuccessful. There are many successful traders and you have only to look at the legends to see your theory is wrong.

  • #22
  • Edited 5:57pm Aug 10, 2019 5:37pm | Edited 5:57pm
discipline is NOT overused. most traders dont have it, will never have it and will never be winners in the long term.
you can have the best system ever (does that exists?), but without discipline you will be a loser.
as simple as that!!!
  • #23
  • Aug 10, 2019 5:42pm Aug 10, 2019 5:42pm
Discipline is a term to be used for novice traders in order for them to get used to a system with its conditions. Set tps and sl. It all means you to follow what is ordered by the system. On the other hand experienced trader has a different discipline understanding. Where he evaluate both technical amd fumdemental aspect as well as what is needed to be done if things go wrong. So it means flexibility. We cannot acknowldge at what stage of experience we have so we become.more flexible. That probably will take years and need failures and pain to figure out. But at some point success brings that enlightenment then you go a tick beyond your limitations and try to risk little more but more planned. At the end you will make that fine adjustment of your risk management. And you would have a complete system that mentally doesnt destroy you. Completing your psycjological integration to your system. If one reads enough in forexfactory they will see that integration from many successful traders. Of course that is the outcome of their own path. Doesnt mean will be the same for others. So as we are all different we all have to work and find out what suits us.

Just like we cannot all be olympic swimming finalists we cannot all be traders. To me anyone who is not trading for living is not a trader. They can be investors or gamblers or whatever you want to call but not traders. We sure all want to have a good life but we have to first asses the path in front of us before stepping into this because not all traders have great lifes and we may not want the same life of a great trader.

Back to the subject: Discipline is a must in trading. It just have an evolving meaning within itself.
  • #24
  • Edited 8:46pm Aug 10, 2019 6:06pm | Edited 8:46pm
My partner has a psychology degree (as well as other degrees..., I don't have any) and launched into this while I was trying to quietly review FF

A) the runner who doesn't run when it rains, lacks discipline. No argument, not subjective ( there was finger wagging with this)

B) the market is chaotic, discipline cannot be applied to the chaotic market. ( i have to say this is where your analogy of a table saw becoming a giraffe comes into play. I love that analogy. I think youre weirder than me even lol)

C) whereas the market cannot be known, it is up to the trader to know themselves. They cannot control the market, but they need to control themselves. Self discipline of the trader to know when to trade, when not to trade etc. When to start, when to stop. Having the discipline to better understand the nature of the trader, working with the uncertain nature of the market.

I don't argue with my nontrader partner...
  • #25
  • Aug 10, 2019 9:51pm Aug 10, 2019 9:51pm
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  • #26
  • Aug 10, 2019 10:11pm Aug 10, 2019 10:11pm
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  • #27
  • Aug 10, 2019 10:44pm Aug 10, 2019 10:44pm
Quoting hellsbells
C) whereas the market cannot be known, it is up to the trader to know themselves. They cannot control the market, but they need to control themselves. Self discipline of the trader to know when to trade, when not to trade etc. When to start, when to stop. Having the discipline to better understand the nature of the trader, working with the uncertain nature of the market. I don't argue with my nontrader partner...
How does the trader know what to do what when "the market cannot be known" ?

If we know the result of the next keno draw, none of us need discipline to simply buy those numbers.
Discipline will not let us know the result of the next keno draw.
  • #28
  • Aug 10, 2019 10:57pm Aug 10, 2019 10:57pm
Quoting skyway
{quote} How does the trader know what to do what when "the market cannot be known" ? If we know the result of the next keno draw, none of us need discipline to simply buy those numbers. Discipline will not let us know the result of the next keno draw.
Yes I understand I got a bit carried away. We have an expectation of what the market will do based on what we see, but nothing is certain.
  • #29
  • Edited 12:59am Aug 11, 2019 12:28am | Edited 12:59am
Quoting tropical_g
{quote} it is clear that your understanding begins with hope which then leads to shock that is followed by horror and ending with hate. Ask a florist to fix an engine then take the florist"s report of what went wrong as the reason engineering is BS. getting a trade wrong has nothing to do with randomness it has everything to do with one or more of the following BS analysis overlooked information don't understand what's going on only focusing on TA bad timing wrong trade management no idea on what to do if the market changes or how to identify it...

Let's say that joe trader is a super dupper extraordinary trader using his proprietary supergalaticnolosssystem that he has worked 50 years to develop. Needless to say he is now a retail forex millionaire. He is a pro. He knows his stuff.
Let's say in the course of 1 month joe trader places 100 trades, because he has a degree in retailforexology he knows that on average 70 % of his trades will be winners. And of course he does the following perfectly as always:

  1. Perfect analysis
  2. Has all the information needed
  3. Understands what's going on
  4. focusing on TA, fundamentals, market structure
  5. good timing
  6. perfect trade management
  7. Has a solid plan on what to do if the market changes or how to identify it


However, joe trader is troubled; eventhough he is driving his 3 ferraries and piloting his private helicopter and placing trades in the market ... at the same time!;
he doubts that he ever will be as great as he thinks he is.

Indeed, if only he could figure out which trade from the 70% probability is a winner, then he could place 100 % winners all the time!
Then for sure getting a trade wrong or right would have nothing to do with randomness

It seems to me that you have the answer, please can you help joe trader ?
100 trades total to be placed, identify the 70 winners, identify the 30 losers, only place the 70 winners.

He says he will let you stay on his private island for a month.

  • #30
  • Aug 11, 2019 1:21am Aug 11, 2019 1:21am
Quoting Mingary
{quote} Let's say that joe trader is a super dupper extraordinary trader using his proprietary supergalaticnolosssystem that he has worked 50 years to develop. Needless to say he is now a retail forex millionaire. He is a pro. He knows his stuff. Let's say in the course of 1 month joe trader places 100 trades, because he has a degree in retailforexology he knows that on average 70 % of his trades will be winners. And of course he does the following perfectly as always: Perfect analysis Has all the information needed Understands what's going on focusing...
On one hand you are saying trading is completely random and you can't profit and on the other you are providing an example of a successful trader? forget win rate and probability, you don't even know where the kitchen sink is.
  • #31
  • Aug 11, 2019 1:42am Aug 11, 2019 1:42am
Quoting tropical_g
{quote} On one hand you are saying trading is completely random and you can't profit and on the other you are providing an example of a successful trader? forget win rate and probability, you don't even know where the kitchen sink is.
Yeahh, "a successful trader" with his quintessential 3 Ferraries, helicoper and private island (:

But seriously, just as I thought. You cannot answer the question, can you ?
When you place a trade, you know the outcome for sure, do you ?
  • #32
  • Aug 11, 2019 1:51am Aug 11, 2019 1:51am
Quoting Mingary
{quote} Yeahh, "a successful trader" with his quintessential 3 Ferraries, helicoper and private island (: But seriously, just as I thought. You cannot answer the question, can you ? When you place a trade, you know the outcome for sure, do you ?
it's a BS question hence no answer.
  • #33
  • Aug 11, 2019 2:05am Aug 11, 2019 2:05am
Quoting tropical_g
{quote} it's a BS question hence no answer.
Declaring forfeit ? I am ok with that.
Better not talk about random outcomes within a probabilty set, it might give the impression that a trade is essentially just a bet!
and that retail forex trading is just glofified gambling after all.
Sometime, I wonder if some people post on this website just to hoodwink the gullible (:
Anyhow, good luck with your trading
  • #34
  • Aug 11, 2019 2:11am Aug 11, 2019 2:11am
Quoting Mingary
{quote} I knew you would say that. Better not talk about random outcomes within a probabilty set, it might give the impression that a trade is essentially just a bet! and that retail forex trading is just glofified gambling after all. Sometime, I wonder if some people post on this website just to hoodwink the gullible (: Anyhow, good luck with your trading
does Trump tweeting about 10 percent hikes on remaining exports have a random outcome?

does the rbnz cutting rates by 50 basis points rather than the 25 expected give a random outcome.

does global slowdown and lower demand for oil have a random outcome for the prices of oil?

the only thing random about the market is people that solely focus on technical analysis for their primary form of analysis. you are so far in the camp of randomness that it is obvious you are one of them because you wouldnt have that opinion if you really knew what's going on.

there are many ways to trade this market but not all of them are equal. maybe you should expand your horizons beyond what you already know.
  • #35
  • Aug 11, 2019 2:14am Aug 11, 2019 2:14am
Sure the new traders are getting all these advices and motivational quotes to have discipline... but thats just some minutes of reading the morning for doing the job. For the discipline only a disciplined trader can make it in the market, just think not to go to your job in the morning, you will not get payed and you will stay in the street, but here we have to have a second discipline more soft with less determinism to save us from the market biases we may have when blindly follow one direction in price.
Looking for profitable short term trades ...|
  • #36
  • Aug 11, 2019 4:02am Aug 11, 2019 4:02am
Did anyone see the movie 'The Founder' with Michael Keaton?

It's about the guy who started McDonald's

He works really hard selling his malt machines. He travels around and makes speeches about his product and of course gets doors slammed in his face all the time but he keeps going until he arrives at a new opportunity; the restaurant. He studies it and makes deals and takes it to the next level and then the next level after that and so on. He is passionate about things that he does. He applies himself. He has a vision and works systematically towards it and builds on it. In the process, He does step on others too. He is not exactly a saint but that passion about the business that he has is applaudable.

That passion within him gives him the drive and the energy that he needs. I think it is more important to be passionate about trading. As a trader, you might wake up in the early hours to watch and trade the market. You may stay up late. You might forego watching TV or hang out with friends. You might read books and articles. You might even take up a second job to make more money for trading. You might blow up your account and then come back with more vengeance to do it right next time. You get flattened by the mega bulldozer that is the market but you get up and fight another day.

Isn't all that discipline? Discipline isn't just one thing that you inject into it. It's the whole thing. If you don't have it, you are not passionate enough and lack of passion is what makes you walk away. Lack of passion means you don't care. If you don't care, of course you aren't passionate.

To me all you need is the passion for the market. What keeps you in otherwise? If you keep losing and you are not into it and rather watch TV than charts, ya, you don't have discipline. So, I think us humans are more familiar with the word passion than discipline. If someone told you to be passionate about what you want to achieve, isn't it more relatable than if they told you to have discipline? To discipline sounds like something you don't want to do. To discipline someone is to punish them or to teach them a lesson. It is a very dry term. Almost army like. But passion is pink..lol. It is love. It is sacrifice, It is a hug. Yes hug the market, love it and that in itself I think leads to discipline because you won't want to have it any other way.
  • #37
  • Aug 11, 2019 4:37am Aug 11, 2019 4:37am
Quoting OutThere
Did anyone see the movie 'The Founder' with Michael Keaton? It's about the guy who started McDonald's He works really hard selling his malt machines. He travels around and makes speeches about his product and of course gets doors slammed in his face all the time but he keeps going until he arrives at a new opportunity; the restaurant. He studies it and makes deals and takes it to the next level and then the next level after that and so on. He is passionate about things that he does. He applies himself. He has a vision and works systematically towards...
"it takes discipline for your passion".
  • #38
  • Edited 4:52am Aug 11, 2019 4:39am | Edited 4:52am
I used the example you gave in your first post to deflate your theory. Here's what you wrote:

Quoting OutThere
..Here is an scenario where being disciplined sucks. You have a trading system that works well and has for a long time. Why? Because you are disciplined and follow it like a freaking perfectionist. The market goes against you and you don't waver just like the many times that it has and you were disciplined. The market goes against you even more but you know to be disciplined and follow the rules of your perfect system. The market goes even more against you and like how you know, you hold on (Ok, don't confuse that with holding a losing trade forever....


Apparently, you mistook being robotic or foolish with being disciplined. No hurts bro, only sharing opinions

Trade safe.

KP

Quoting OutThere
{quote} No one says a manual strategy works by itself. Someone has to make the decision to get in and out. The fact that I think 'be disciplined' is just an empty advice, doesn't mean I believe in 'don't be disciplined'. It's just a useless piece of advice equal to saying 'be successful' or 'don't lose money' and so on. Do you take advice like that and go become successful and that works for you? If it does, here is a piece of advice from me: Go make a billion. Yes go on. Now you are set. Report back to me when you are done and make sure you have...
Do your homework, follow the footprints of smart money
  • #39
  • Aug 11, 2019 10:10am Aug 11, 2019 10:10am
Quoting KeenPips
I used the example you gave in your first post to deflate your theory. Here's what you wrote: {quote} Apparently, you mistook being robotic or foolish with being disciplined. No hurts bro, only sharing opinions Trade safe. KP {quote}
Yup, it's your opinion alright. You can interpret things the way you want. It's not illegal.
  • #40
  • Aug 11, 2019 10:13am Aug 11, 2019 10:13am
Quoting Marcieny
{quote} "it takes discipline for your passion".
My passion leads to discipline kind of automatically. That's why it's no effort. It's a pleasure actually. No one has to give me instructions how to be passionate. It comes from the heart.

It works the other way around, then you have found a way to make things work for you.
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