Disliked{quote} Hi Merka The following has nothing to do with Georges work In between times when there is no trades on spikes taking out Highs & Lows as George explained, I look elsewhere to make money. George talked about HERD BEHAVIOUR - here is my back up plan to make some money while I am waiting. As I don't have a dog to walk, I trade via signals on my chart. I use the line chart to look for Optimizied Trendlines at the close of a candle As the Algorithm is so precise, it hits the line by the pip but it goes hidden on a normal candle chart. I am looking...Ignored
(binned per thread starter’s request) MM (Money Maker) Detective
- #342
- Edited 4:07am Apr 29, 2019 2:47am | Edited 4:07am
- Joined Dec 2017 | Status: Trader | 4,378 Posts
I'm close to completing an initial version of a MTF version of the MM Detective indicator and wanted to share a screen shot. At first I thought there was a bug, but upon closer inspection I don't think so. Also, since this issue will likely come up again as others begin to experiment with the MTF version then I figured this was a good time to bring it up.
Consider the two charts above -- EURUSD M30 and EURUSD D1. The upper chart uses the M30 timeframe and the lower chart the D1 timeframe. The upper chart uses the MTF version of the new indicator to detect D1 target levels. The lower chart uses @SwingMan's detector to detect target levels.
Comments:
1. Do not get hung-up on the use of fractals. Fractals here are simply being used to detect TOPS and BOTTOMS. We do not need to use fractals. I'm using them, @SwingMan uses them, and others use them because they are easy to code. Again, at least in this case, they are simply used to detect target levels (i.e. TOPS and BOTTOMS). If it turns out that fractals do not accurately detect TOPS and BOTTOMS then I'll use a different method. How we detect TOPS and BOTTOMS isn't as important as being able to detect them in a reproducible and reliable way.
2. Looking at the lower chart, the fractal at time 2019.03.20 00:00 appears at the top of a peak -- makes sense, right? In the upper chart, the corresponding fractal -- at the same timestamp -- appears all alone, somewhere out in space. So, what's the deal? The explanation is that each D1 bar represents1152 48 M30 bars. As a result, the M30 chart provides much greater resolution and you can clearly see the spike at 2019.03.20 00:00. In contrast, in the case of the D1 chart, the spike isn't so noticeable -- it seems to be part of a general trend upwards.
3. Looking at the upper chart -- you can see a region of about 40 bars (20 hours) prior to the spike upward. Clearly a region of consolidation. You don't see this in the D1 chart.
4. The D1 chart has the advantage that it gives a larger, overall picture -- whereas the M30 chart provides greater resolution. However, they both generate the same (or very similar) target levels.
5. I'm pretty sure one or more people will now think that fractals are useless because they don't always appear to match up in different charts. But look again -- that is not the case. They do occur at EXACTLY the same timestamps. It's just that when you overlay M30 bars or D1 bars on a chart then it looks like TOPS and BOTTOMS don't line up. But they really do -- it is a visual artifact caused by the fact each D1 bar represents1152 48 M30 bars.
6. In the end, as @George et al and @4fxonly and @Nih98 and others have emphasized, all that we really care about are the target lines that survive and which remain alive at the right-hand side of the chart. Since fractals will generate similar target lines regardless which TF chart is used, then we don't need to worry about their starting points. Again, their starting points are the same -- it's just that they may look different because1152 48 M30 bars are hidden within one D1 bar.
What does this all mean in terms of trading? Entries? Exits? I don't know. Perhaps to some of you it is obvious and you can shed some additional light. I think this issue will come up again and again as we begin experimenting with multiple time frames. For now please don't obsess about Entries and Exits -- unless you are someone like @RickM or @moodybot or @bluesteele who can teach us something. Rather, simply observe the data, make mental notes and think about it. As the tool(s) improve in ways that highlight certain features of the data, then it may become clear(er) how best to approach trading. At least that's the plan.
Look it -- it took @George 20 years. This thread is less than a week old. @George gave us a huge, huge head start...
Consider the two charts above -- EURUSD M30 and EURUSD D1. The upper chart uses the M30 timeframe and the lower chart the D1 timeframe. The upper chart uses the MTF version of the new indicator to detect D1 target levels. The lower chart uses @SwingMan's detector to detect target levels.
Comments:
1. Do not get hung-up on the use of fractals. Fractals here are simply being used to detect TOPS and BOTTOMS. We do not need to use fractals. I'm using them, @SwingMan uses them, and others use them because they are easy to code. Again, at least in this case, they are simply used to detect target levels (i.e. TOPS and BOTTOMS). If it turns out that fractals do not accurately detect TOPS and BOTTOMS then I'll use a different method. How we detect TOPS and BOTTOMS isn't as important as being able to detect them in a reproducible and reliable way.
2. Looking at the lower chart, the fractal at time 2019.03.20 00:00 appears at the top of a peak -- makes sense, right? In the upper chart, the corresponding fractal -- at the same timestamp -- appears all alone, somewhere out in space. So, what's the deal? The explanation is that each D1 bar represents
3. Looking at the upper chart -- you can see a region of about 40 bars (20 hours) prior to the spike upward. Clearly a region of consolidation. You don't see this in the D1 chart.
4. The D1 chart has the advantage that it gives a larger, overall picture -- whereas the M30 chart provides greater resolution. However, they both generate the same (or very similar) target levels.
5. I'm pretty sure one or more people will now think that fractals are useless because they don't always appear to match up in different charts. But look again -- that is not the case. They do occur at EXACTLY the same timestamps. It's just that when you overlay M30 bars or D1 bars on a chart then it looks like TOPS and BOTTOMS don't line up. But they really do -- it is a visual artifact caused by the fact each D1 bar represents
6. In the end, as @George et al and @4fxonly and @Nih98 and others have emphasized, all that we really care about are the target lines that survive and which remain alive at the right-hand side of the chart. Since fractals will generate similar target lines regardless which TF chart is used, then we don't need to worry about their starting points. Again, their starting points are the same -- it's just that they may look different because
What does this all mean in terms of trading? Entries? Exits? I don't know. Perhaps to some of you it is obvious and you can shed some additional light. I think this issue will come up again and again as we begin experimenting with multiple time frames. For now please don't obsess about Entries and Exits -- unless you are someone like @RickM or @moodybot or @bluesteele who can teach us something. Rather, simply observe the data, make mental notes and think about it. As the tool(s) improve in ways that highlight certain features of the data, then it may become clear(er) how best to approach trading. At least that's the plan.
Look it -- it took @George 20 years. This thread is less than a week old. @George gave us a huge, huge head start...
{quote} Target Both.. {image} AUDJPY M15, with 3bars H4 Fractal lines and ascending Andre Pitchfork projection. Regards NIH PS. Maybe I will try to create template on how to use Robots4me MM detective indicator, after final product release.
Target both 'reached'
NIH
Dog + Smile = Beautiful Day
What does this all mean in terms of trading?
D1 Chart
H4 Chart
H1 Chart
M15 Chart
When I find strong Fractal (multi dimensional) like this, then I will not hesitate to bombarding this instrument (in this case EU) with a lot of short positions, as far as my maximum Risk Management allowed.
Regards
NIH
Dog + Smile = Beautiful Day
- #356
- Edited 6:52am Apr 29, 2019 6:33am | Edited 6:52am
- Joined Sep 2015 | Status: Trader | 2,516 Posts
{quote} Hi RickM - priceless stuff again from a veteran. ThanksWas this also an incidence from 18 April? Cheers Ray {image}
Yes, that's the basic idea but it works best when price touches the line many times and the away moves look like its trying to break clear from this area. That is the Algorithm trying to suck in breakout traders. Then it will want to make smash those breakout traders and we collect our pips. I trade this with 3 - 5 trades normally looking to enter as it starts to move back to the line. In effect, we are trading Bullish or Bearish Compressions without having parallel lines.
Still we need to do our chart analyis starting from H4 and look to trade these only on M15. We don't want to fight the H4 chart or a move to a target line area without good reason.
Please remember this is a side game and not the main game which should be trading to Georges PDF
Cheers Rick
Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
- #359
- Edited 7:28am Apr 29, 2019 7:12am | Edited 7:28am
- Joined Dec 2017 | Status: Trader | 4,378 Posts
I've decided to release the MM Detective MTF-HLF indicator -- the initial version that includes support for both MTF (multiple time frames) and HLF (higher-level fractals). MTF had always been in the works, but HLF was not. It was recently introduced to me by @SwingMan -- so he deserves all the credit. My sense is higher-level fractals do a better job detecting TOPS and BOTTOMS -- however, whether that is actually the case remains to be seen. Also, exactly what "better job" means -- I'm not sure.
The new indicator can be downloaded from post #1. Post #1 has grown quite large, so you may have to scroll to the bottom. I will also add instructions and details to post #1 in the next day or so. In the meantime, I'll provide some comments / instructions here:
The purpose of the MM Detective MTF-HLF indicator is similar to its predecessor -- to detect TOPS and BOTTOMS that serve as potential MM targets. This new version adds support for MTF and HLF.
MTF Support: This means it can use bars from different time frames (M1, M5, M15, M30, H1, H4, D1, W1) to compute TOPS and BOTTOMS and display them all on a single chart. I don't think I need to say more about what the advantage is.
HLF Support: Turns out there are more to fractals than I initially imagined. The simplest type of fractal typically includes 3- or 5-bars -- and is referred to as a Level-1 fractal. MT4 comes with a Level-1, 5-bar fractal indicator. I happened to use it for this indicator because it seemed to do a nice job of picking-out TOPS and BOTTOMS -- as others have found. From @SwingMan I have since learned about Level-2 and Level-3 fractals, which can also be used to identify TOPS and BOTTOMS -- many of which overlap with the same TOPS and BOTTOMS identified by Level-1 fractals. In our context, a fractal consists of a midpoint plus left and right shoulder. A Level-1 fractal has a middle bar plus one bar as its left shoulder and one bar as its right shoulder. A Level-2 fractal also has a middle bar -- but for its left shoulder there is a Level-1 fractal and for its right shoulder there is a Level-1 fractal. A Level-3 fractal again has a middle bar -- and guess what it uses for left and right shoulders? That's right -- Level-2 fractals.
From the screen shot above it appears there are a lot of settings -- but since most are related to colors they can be safely ignored (if you are not color-blind). Here is a brief run-down of the most important settings:
1. Display Mode -- choose between displaying all TOPS and BOTTOMS (i.e. "Alive" and "Dead"), or only the ones that haven't yet been taken out by the MM ("Alive" only).
2. MaxBars -- how far back in history to compute TOPS and BOTTOMS. The value here can be important because if it is too large then the indicator will become very sluggish. The default is '500' since the default number of enabled Time Frames is 8. If you wish to increase MaxBars to something like '5000', then you'll need to disable some of the time frames. I found I could use 5000 bars comfortably with 3 time frames (e.g. M15, H1, H4).
3. Fractal Settings -- you can choose any combination of Level-1, Level-2 and Level-3 -- or all 3. By default, all three levels are enabled. Also, by default I suggest sticking with @SwingMan's recommendation of using 3-bar fractals -- so leave the default Left and Right shoulder lengths as '1'.
4. Time Frame Settings -- 8 time frames are supported -- M1 through W1. Mix and combine them as you wish. However, you need to be aware that only time frames that are greater-than or equal to the chart's time frame can be displayed. This is a technical limitation. Think about it -- it's not possible to map M1 bars onto an H1 chart -- but it is possible to map H1 bars onto an M1 chart.
As I've mentioned in previous posts -- don't get hung-up on the use of fractals. This is not about fractals -- rather, this is about identifying TOP and BOTTOM levels that are created as potential MM targets. Also, please don't ask what combination of fractals, time frames work best -- I don't know. Collectively I hope we can whittle things down to some combination that works well.
I've done some testing and I think the indicator is in "good enough" shape to put in your hands -- though, since I am one and you are many, then no doubt there will be bugs (hopefully not too many). Please don't hesitate to report bugs or suspicious behavior -- I'll try not to get too annoyed. Seriously -- I'll do whatever is necessary to make sure it's a reliable tool for you to use.
Going forward, I think the next step is to compare the TOPS and BOTTOMS identified by the indicator to those drawn manually. I'm not a manual drawer -- so, I'm not going to do this. We need to come to some consensus as to whether or not TOPS and BOTTOMS identified by an indicator are "good enough" to be used as part of a trading methodology that takes into account the MM's psychology. Hopefully we'll agree the indicator is good enough to automate this portion of the methodology -- and then the fun can begin.
The new indicator can be downloaded from post #1. Post #1 has grown quite large, so you may have to scroll to the bottom. I will also add instructions and details to post #1 in the next day or so. In the meantime, I'll provide some comments / instructions here:
The purpose of the MM Detective MTF-HLF indicator is similar to its predecessor -- to detect TOPS and BOTTOMS that serve as potential MM targets. This new version adds support for MTF and HLF.
MTF Support: This means it can use bars from different time frames (M1, M5, M15, M30, H1, H4, D1, W1) to compute TOPS and BOTTOMS and display them all on a single chart. I don't think I need to say more about what the advantage is.
HLF Support: Turns out there are more to fractals than I initially imagined. The simplest type of fractal typically includes 3- or 5-bars -- and is referred to as a Level-1 fractal. MT4 comes with a Level-1, 5-bar fractal indicator. I happened to use it for this indicator because it seemed to do a nice job of picking-out TOPS and BOTTOMS -- as others have found. From @SwingMan I have since learned about Level-2 and Level-3 fractals, which can also be used to identify TOPS and BOTTOMS -- many of which overlap with the same TOPS and BOTTOMS identified by Level-1 fractals. In our context, a fractal consists of a midpoint plus left and right shoulder. A Level-1 fractal has a middle bar plus one bar as its left shoulder and one bar as its right shoulder. A Level-2 fractal also has a middle bar -- but for its left shoulder there is a Level-1 fractal and for its right shoulder there is a Level-1 fractal. A Level-3 fractal again has a middle bar -- and guess what it uses for left and right shoulders? That's right -- Level-2 fractals.
From the screen shot above it appears there are a lot of settings -- but since most are related to colors they can be safely ignored (if you are not color-blind). Here is a brief run-down of the most important settings:
1. Display Mode -- choose between displaying all TOPS and BOTTOMS (i.e. "Alive" and "Dead"), or only the ones that haven't yet been taken out by the MM ("Alive" only).
2. MaxBars -- how far back in history to compute TOPS and BOTTOMS. The value here can be important because if it is too large then the indicator will become very sluggish. The default is '500' since the default number of enabled Time Frames is 8. If you wish to increase MaxBars to something like '5000', then you'll need to disable some of the time frames. I found I could use 5000 bars comfortably with 3 time frames (e.g. M15, H1, H4).
3. Fractal Settings -- you can choose any combination of Level-1, Level-2 and Level-3 -- or all 3. By default, all three levels are enabled. Also, by default I suggest sticking with @SwingMan's recommendation of using 3-bar fractals -- so leave the default Left and Right shoulder lengths as '1'.
4. Time Frame Settings -- 8 time frames are supported -- M1 through W1. Mix and combine them as you wish. However, you need to be aware that only time frames that are greater-than or equal to the chart's time frame can be displayed. This is a technical limitation. Think about it -- it's not possible to map M1 bars onto an H1 chart -- but it is possible to map H1 bars onto an M1 chart.
As I've mentioned in previous posts -- don't get hung-up on the use of fractals. This is not about fractals -- rather, this is about identifying TOP and BOTTOM levels that are created as potential MM targets. Also, please don't ask what combination of fractals, time frames work best -- I don't know. Collectively I hope we can whittle things down to some combination that works well.
I've done some testing and I think the indicator is in "good enough" shape to put in your hands -- though, since I am one and you are many, then no doubt there will be bugs (hopefully not too many). Please don't hesitate to report bugs or suspicious behavior -- I'll try not to get too annoyed. Seriously -- I'll do whatever is necessary to make sure it's a reliable tool for you to use.
Going forward, I think the next step is to compare the TOPS and BOTTOMS identified by the indicator to those drawn manually. I'm not a manual drawer -- so, I'm not going to do this. We need to come to some consensus as to whether or not TOPS and BOTTOMS identified by an indicator are "good enough" to be used as part of a trading methodology that takes into account the MM's psychology. Hopefully we'll agree the indicator is good enough to automate this portion of the methodology -- and then the fun can begin.
- #360
- Apr 29, 2019 7:50am Apr 29, 2019 7:50am
- Joined Jul 2015 | Status: Trader | 2,299 Posts
I've decided to release the MM Detective MTF-HLF indicator -- the initial version that includes support for both MTF (multiple time frames) and HLF (higher-level fractals). MTF had always been in the works, but HLF was not. It was recently introduced to me by @SwingMan -- so he deserves all the credit. My sense is higher-level fractals do a better job detecting TOPS and BOTTOMS -- however, whether that is actually the case remains to be seen. Also, exactly what "better job" means -- I'm not sure. {image} The new indicator can be downloaded from...
