Book Discussion: The Hour Between Dog and Wolf by Dr. Coates | Forex Factory

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Attachments: Book Discussion: The Hour Between Dog and Wolf by Dr. Coates
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Book Discussion: The Hour Between Dog and Wolf by Dr. Coates

  • #1
  • First Post: Jan 8, 2019 2:54am Jan 8, 2019 2:54am
Hello and welcome,

Here we are discussing the book "The Hour Between Dog and Wolf: How Risk Taking Transforms Us, Body and Mind" by Dr. John Coates.

Ground Rules:
- The book is about psychology and this thread will be thought-provoking.
- Be nice.
- Ask questions but do not be offended if you are asked to read and reread the book.
- Opinions are welcome especially grounded, i.e., feel free to say what you think and why you think so.
- If and when you disagree say why and better yet offer other options. Be open to a constructive dialogue. We are here to learn.
- Be open to hearing opinions of others. Do not attack a person but work with where they are coming from and their reasons.
- Contribute to the conversation. You may not like what the author says but agree to disagree.
- I reserve the right to dislike and ignore users that behave like trolls and hinder the conversation. You have been warned.
- Did I say "Be nice"?

Book Contents

PART I - MIND AND BODY IN THE FINANCIAL MARKETS
Introduction
1 The Biology of a Market Bubble
2 Thinking with Your Body

PART II - GUT THINKING
3 The Speed of Thought
4 Gut Feelings

PART III - SEASONS OF THE MARKET
5 The Thrill of the Search
6 The Fuel of Exuberance
7 The Stress Response on Wall Street

PART IV - RESILIENCE
8 Toughness
9 From Molecule to Market

We can read a chapter a day. Feel free to share your highlights and things you disagree with explaining why you disagree and offering options.

I will post the day after tomorrow, allowing two days for people to decide whether they want to join and get a copy of the book.

Blue skies and green pips!
Buy low, sell high.
  • #2
  • Jan 8, 2019 3:34am Jan 8, 2019 3:34am
psychology is not related to online trading or to commerce and business

without looking at i bet that the book is not free and if it was for free i bet that it has a commercial goals in some how

when you know what you r doing and you are okay with, you will have the patience
when you gamble with what you can afford to lose its a risk free game and you will have the balls



brrrrrr. how much movies i have to see in this life
p.s everything looks like a fake movie to me specially on this worldwide box

The snake, the rat, the cat, the dog
How you gon' see 'em if you livin' in the fog

cheers
  • #3
  • Jan 8, 2019 4:12pm Jan 8, 2019 4:12pm
Quoting dicojoxaftr
psychology is not related to online trading or to commerce and business without looking at i bet that the book is not free and if it was for free i bet that it has a commercial goals in some how when you know what you r doing and you are okay with, you will have the patience when you gamble with what you can afford to lose its a risk free game and you will have the balls brrrrrr. how much movies i have to see in this life p.s everything looks like a fake movie to me specially on this worldwide box ...
As the book was written by a Wall St Trader who trained as a neuroscientist and written in response to his observations in the trading world he once inhabited, I think it's safe to say you are wrong in saying psychology is not related to commerce. Or perhaps, to be 100% even-handed, it is safe to say that the author believes this to be so.

As a full time trader of too many years to think about, who also spent part of his life both playing professional sports (American Football and then Sport Climbing) and now coaching, I can safely say that psychology played and plays a major part in all risk-taking activities.

Your example of gambling what one can afford to lose is not a valid one, as in that case, there is no risk. The whole point is that psychology plays a part when risk does become a part of the activity. As one who has trotted out to kick a game-winning field goal in front of thousands or soloed climbs above death drops, I can say with 100% certainty that my mindset was different when I practiced kicking or scouted the route on a rope than it was when the real thing was on the line.

The key is to acknowledge that as fact and to learn how to minimize the negative effects without harming performance.

In fact, it becomes a part of the process that you do in fact learn to thrive on that feeling, not fear it.

It is also true that your fear level decreases the more confident in your abilities you become. I was always my bravest on a climb when I was at my strongest physically and had repped every single move on the climb in my sleep.

In football, if I had had an interrupted or poor pre-game warm up, I would actively find myself hoping that the game wouldn't come down to me - whereas a kicker needs to get to the point that he wants to be the one to get out there and have the whole game rest on his shoulders. I then trained and trained and trained some more, until I had no doubts...zero...in my abilities. Now, even to this day, I could walk out onto a field and kick without giving the surroundings a second thought. This kind of behaviour can be learned. Some will, for sure, have a natural ability but it can be learned.

That then translates directly over to trading. If you can't see how, then the book is most certainly not for you.
  • #4
  • Jan 8, 2019 4:37pm Jan 8, 2019 4:37pm
I dont know why "psychology " its so over hyped, so "hard" etc etc.. its very easy:

1.- learn to trade a freaking instrument WELL, including understandingg the fundamentals (it can help or be the actual thing that move X market, like oil)

2.- Use a proven system optimized/tailored for that instrument

3.- Stick to the rules and thats it !!


Yes, its that simple...


Every single struggle you can have while you trade its just a flaw in your character, Trading its just bringing them to the spotlight.. period


Be disciplined, dont be a pussy and go for the kill everyday !!
  • #5
  • Jan 8, 2019 4:47pm Jan 8, 2019 4:47pm
Quoting havo
I dont know why "psychology " its so over hyped, so "hard" etc etc.. its very easy: 1.- learn to trade a freaking instrument WELL, including understandingg the fundamentals (it can help or be the actual thing that move X market, like oil) 2.- Use a proven system optimized/tailored for that instrument 3.- Stick to the rules and thats it !! Yes, its that simple... Every single struggle you can have while you trade its just a flaw in your character, Trading its just bringing them to the spotlight.. period Be disciplined, dont be a pussy and go for...
Yes, that's exactly it. You have the confidence because you have practiced and learned your craft (whatever it is) until you can do it in your sleep. It then holds no fear for you.

It's those who don't have the discipline to do the legwork who have the fatal flaw in their makeup.

Oorah!
  • #6
  • Jan 9, 2019 4:33am Jan 9, 2019 4:33am
Quoting lemercenaire
{quote} Yes, that's exactly it. You have the confidence because you have practiced and learned your craft (whatever it is) until you can do it in your sleep. It then holds no fear for you. It's those who don't have the discipline to do the legwork who have the fatal flaw in their makeup. Oorah!
a paradox comes only from a lil iq person and iq measuring knowledge and the skills of a person

once you disagree me, once you agree with me and you dont even notice that, too bad for u and too bad for the ppl who like u blindly

maybe my skills and knowledge in eng language is poor but im sure that i deliver the message before releasing it

read again its all about thos 2 points and psychology is not related to commerce not 100% sure but 1m% sure if you want, as i said before trump is rich and is president not because his iq is 500,,, or his experience is 5/5 nah at all so dont believe the ppl while ignoring logic, math and sciences, because if you do that you are one from millions believing the earth is flat because ppl and presidents tells them that

Quote
when you know what you r doing and you are okay with, you will have the patience
when you gamble with what you can afford to lose its a risk free game and you will have the ball
  • #7
  • Jan 9, 2019 5:03am Jan 9, 2019 5:03am
Quoting dicojoxaftr
{quote} a paradox comes only from a lil iq person and iq measuring knowledge and the skills of a person once you disagree me, once you agree with me and you dont even notice that, too bad for u and too bad for the ppl who like u blindly maybe my skills and knowledge in eng language is poor but im sure that i deliver the message before releasing it read again its all about thos 2 points and psychology is not related to commerce not 100% sure but 1m% sure if you want, as i said before trump is rich and is president not because his iq is 500,,,...
Well ok then! lol.

I do admire your ability to see the world so clearly when your head is obviously so far up your own ass.

If all you wish to do is come here and insult and sneer, then I fail to see the point. That is nothing more than the attitude and actions of a troll.

Unfortunately what it does do is confirm my fears for this thread, that it would very quickly deviate away from a simple book discussion and life's to short.

Good luck in your travels.
  • #8
  • Jan 9, 2019 5:05am Jan 9, 2019 5:05am
Quoting dicojoxaftr
psychology is not related to online trading yada yada ...
ok, bye.
Fix up, trade sharp ...
  • #9
  • Jan 9, 2019 5:10am Jan 9, 2019 5:10am
And off the trolls to Happy man's topic. The book is very interesting, not only for trading but how the body and mind is interconnected. Also interesting from a historical perspective: The body and mind have been seen as separate for most of documented human history. That picture is slowly cracking and it unleashes tons of new learnings and perspectives to what you can do with it.

In sports, people are already making use of it by techniques. (For example, Ronaldo's pre kicking breathing techniques etc.) So why not also in trading. From my own experience I also know: If you will not fix yourself, you will do the same again, and again and again. And get the same results. The understanding of the connection Coates explains can offer a whole new view and development of a person.
Fix up, trade sharp ...
  • #10
  • Jan 10, 2019 2:49am Jan 10, 2019 2:49am
Welcome, Lem, Hickson, and others! Thank you for taking the time to respond to other readers here. Appreciate your patience guys! It has been suggested to me that I dislike and delete some comments here but for now I let them be so that others can learn from them.

As promised, here is my first post about the book. I hope those who are interested have got a copy of the book and started reading it. Let's talk about Introduction.

Highlighted thoughts:
- The very first sentence is catchy, "WHEN YOU TAKE RISKS, YOU ARE REMINDED IN THE MOST insistent manner that you have a body. For risk by its very nature threatens to hurt you."
- "Financial risk taking is as much a biological activity, with as many medical consequences, as facing down a grizzly bear."
- "It has been said of war that it consists of long stretches of boredom punctuated by brief periods of terror, and much the same can be said of trading."
- "Rising levels of testosterone increase Scott’s and Logan’s hemoglobin, and consequently their blood’s capacity to carry oxygen; the testosterone also increases their state of confidence and, crucially, their appetite for risk. For Scott and Logan, this is a moment of transformation, what the French since the Middle Ages have called “the hour between dog and wolf.”
- "Normally stress is a nasty experience, but not at low levels. At low levels it thrills. A nonthreatening stressor or challenge, like a sporting match, a fast drive, or an exciting market, releases cortisol, and in combination with dopamine, one of the most addictive drugs known to the human brain, it delivers a narcotic hit, a rush, a flow that convinces traders there is no other job in the world."

Takeaways:
- Impressive how well Coates describes some of the types of people on Wall Street. Many of them do seem on drugs.
- Never heard before about Jekyll-and-Hyde pair. Planning to watch a movie, conveniently available on YouTube.
- For those of us who read "The Art of War", Coates' comparion of trading to war makes perfect sense.

Next time I'll post on Monday discussing the 1st chapter. The quick comment about women is thought-provoking. Will talk about it on Monday.

'Till then!
Buy low, sell high.
  • #11
  • Jan 10, 2019 2:58am Jan 10, 2019 2:58am
Quoting HappyMan
Welcome, Lem, Hickson, and others! Thank you for taking the time to respond to other readers here. Appreciate your patience guys! It has been suggested to me that I dislike and delete some comments here but for now I let them be so that others can learn from them. As promised, here is my first post about the book. I hope those who are interested have got a copy of the book and started reading it. Let's talk about Introduction. Highlighted thoughts: - The very first sentence is catchy, "WHEN YOU TAKE RISKS, YOU ARE REMINDED IN THE MOST insistent...
Good quotes. I think it is undeniable that these are facts - we have all faced it opening a position and feeling emotions through our body like increased heart rate, maybe even pain if something does not go our way. It should be contained after some time of professional trading, but what I found: That strange feeling in my stomach when the position ran into the full stop never totally went away until now. To a certain degree it might even be normal as long as the emotion does not become so strong it controls us. We need to look for ways to deal with it.
Fix up, trade sharp ...
  • #12
  • Jan 10, 2019 3:09am Jan 10, 2019 3:09am
"It has been said of war that it consists of long stretches of boredom punctuated by brief periods of terror, and much the same can be said of trading."

This is an important concept and perhaps not tn the way one might initially think.

I do agree with the analogy but I would expand out from that and say that this very fact coupled with the admitted rush that this risk / activity gives us (as noted in one of the other quotes) is why so many traders fail - or at least a major contributing factor - because in chasing that rush, it leads to over trading. Over trading leads to over exposure to the market. Killer.

To go back to the war analogy. It leads soldiers to stick their head up out of the trench one too many times. Not good. Heads need to be attached to bodies.
  • #13
  • Jan 10, 2019 9:23am Jan 10, 2019 9:23am
Hi HM good luck with the thread !
  • #14
  • Jan 10, 2019 9:44pm Jan 10, 2019 9:44pm
Quoting claudia1
Hi HM good luck with the thread !
Welcome, Claudia!

Guys, Claudia has kindly agreed to contribute to our discussion next week when we talk about women being less prone to market craziness.

Last night watched "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde". An interesting case, why indeed generally good and smart people sometimes behave like worst criminals?
Buy low, sell high.
  • #15
  • Jan 11, 2019 1:29am Jan 11, 2019 1:29am
[quote=HappyMan;11871045]{quote} Welcome, Claudia! Guys, Claudia has kindly agreed to contribute to our discussion next week when we talk about women being less prone to market craziness. Last night watched "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde". An interesting case, why indeed generally good and smart people sometimes behave like worst criminals?[/quote]

Once saw a (terrible) movie ''Dr Jekyll and Mrs Hyde''!

That would be a whole different kettle of fish, lol.
  • #16
  • Jan 13, 2019 7:56am Jan 13, 2019 7:56am
Just stolen this from the Exotics thread as I figured it added to the conversation.

Thanks to 2dollardog and to the original poster obviously.

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: tradingpsychology.png Size: 159 KB
  • #17
  • Jan 13, 2019 8:32am Jan 13, 2019 8:32am
Quoting HappyMan
{quote} Welcome, Claudia! Guys, Claudia has kindly agreed to contribute to our discussion next week when we talk about women being less prone to market craziness. Last night watched "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde". An interesting case, why indeed generally good and smart people sometimes behave like worst criminals?
Interesting article - not saying it's right or wrong as I don't know. Worth reading.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/wo...-than-men.html
  • #18
  • Jan 13, 2019 10:35am Jan 13, 2019 10:35am
Quoting claudia1
{quote} Interesting article - not saying it's right or wrong as I don't know. Worth reading. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/wo...-than-men.html
Interesting.

Turning it on its head, however, one could say that the ''rules'' of what make a good trader:

1: When you realise you got it wrong, get out.
2: Be disciplined, keep emotions out of any trade. Don't panic (which could be reduced to know your exit plan before you even go in, don't try and make it up as you go along...if 'a' happens, do 'b' etc...you don't panic if you have a solid plan of escape).
3: Be selective. Only take the very best set-ups.
4:Learn your method inside out. Ask intelligent questions. Stick to the method.
5: Make sure your ducks are lined up, not sort of ready but ready.

Also, put like that, you can see that you could actually contract those five to perhaps three ''rules'', as they tend to repeat themselves.

Anyway, the point is, imo if you break it down like that, then it's possible to say why perhaps women make a better fist of it in general, is that they are more prepared to follow rules.

It then follows that anyone can be a better trader by following these rules, male or female.

Just a thought
  • #19
  • Jan 13, 2019 10:45am Jan 13, 2019 10:45am
Quoting lemercenaire
{quote} Interesting. Turning it on its head, however, one could say that the ''rules'' of what make a good trader: 1: When you realise you got it wrong, get out. 2: Be disciplined, keep emotions out of any trade. Don't panic (which could be reduced to know your exit plan before you even go in, don't try and make it up as you go along...if 'a' happens, do 'b' etc...you don't panic if you have a solid plan of escape). 3: Be selective. Only take the very best set-ups. 4:Learn your method inside out. Ask intelligent questions. Stick to the method. 5:...
And they can multi-task better than most chaps.
every Saint has a past. Every Sinner has a Future
  • #20
  • Jan 13, 2019 10:47am Jan 13, 2019 10:47am
Something you could argue about forever as there is no real answer.

On a different note I just got mailed Bryan Ferry is touring and in Frankfurt 26 May. Must be getting on.
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