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Market Makers & ECN’s, Is the grass greener?

  • #41
  • Oct 2, 2006 8:02am Oct 2, 2006 8:02am
Quoting avlasov
Why not trade Futures FX with CME?



-Alex
Are you suggesting that futures has more liquidity that than most forex brokers offer?
Profit is where readiness meets Opportunity
  • #42
  • Oct 2, 2006 9:02am Oct 2, 2006 9:02am
Quoting FXopportunist
Are you suggesting that futures has more liquidity that than most forex brokers offer?
I don't know if Avlasov is but I would suggest that.
  • #43
  • Oct 2, 2006 10:05am Oct 2, 2006 10:05am
Quoting philmcgrew
I don't know if Avlasov is but I would suggest that.
Do you trade any futures Phil?
Profit is where readiness meets Opportunity
  • #44
  • Oct 2, 2006 10:33am Oct 2, 2006 10:33am
I have traded futures but not currency futures. However if you look at currency futures there is a compelling arugument that would eliminate almost everything people hate about spot forex:

1. liquidity
2. market depth
3. centralized exchange
4. guaranteed accounts (no refco)
5. options as a hedging instrument
6. transparency
7. true market pricing
  • #45
  • Oct 2, 2006 2:54pm Oct 2, 2006 2:54pm
Quoting philmcgrew
I have traded futures but not currency futures. However if you look at currency futures there is a compelling arugument that would eliminate almost everything people hate about spot forex:

1. liquidity
2. market depth
3. centralized exchange
4. guaranteed accounts (no refco)
5. options as a hedging instrument
6. transparency
7. true market pricing
What is the intra day leverage up to these days?
Profit is where readiness meets Opportunity
  • #46
  • Oct 11, 2006 2:02pm Oct 11, 2006 2:02pm
Quoting TheRumpledOne
I do not see a problem with any of those trading spot forex but then again, I do NOT use a FIXED SPREAD BROKER.
Hey there TRO,

I see that you have made this statement...oh once or twice now.

Would you kindly explain why you do not face any of the above issues because you trade with efxgroup. I'm sure you have more detail to share that would benefit everyone. I for one am always interested in new ideas (even if they are simply new to me) and would like to hear more.
Secret Identity: Bill Sullivan
  • #47
  • Oct 11, 2006 4:30pm Oct 11, 2006 4:30pm
Quoting FXopportunist
What is the intra day leverage up to these days?
Performance bond on EC (EURO FX futures) is $2,835 initial, $2,100 maintenance. By my calculations at the current price level that comes to 55x leverage for initial, 74x leverage for maintenance. This is overnight leverage. Most firms will let you put up 50% of the performance bond level intraday (or less), so double those numbers for intraday trading not holding overnight.

http://www.cme.com/html.wrap/wrapped...rightC.htm?h=2

Also for what it's worth the CME's FX futures comprise the largest "ECN" doing 1/3 of the total volume moved in the EURO.
  • #48
  • Oct 18, 2006 2:23pm Oct 18, 2006 2:23pm
Thanx to FXO. Really interesting...
Usefull thread. Many important questions but no answers

I guess everybody went to trade futures on CME and stopped posting here

I'm curious about liquidity on ECN's too. If it makes no sense to discuss ECN cause it's software, may be we can discuss prime brokers. Does anybody has some information?
  • #49
  • Oct 19, 2006 9:51am Oct 19, 2006 9:51am
I am demoeing a futures platform right now for trading globex/CME. Intraday requires about $850 margin required for 1 pound contract. The futures contract equates to about $12.50 per pip. Overnight Margin is about 2x the intra day. Still very impressive leverage. About 150:1 intra day and 75:1 overnight. As much levergae as I could ever ask for.

The Spread on the pound is mostly 1 pip, sometimes 2 and sometimes 0 but mostly 1. Commision is about $8 per round turn. Obviously this is much much cheaper than trading retail Forex.

For intraday guys trading standard lots. It seems to be the only way to go. Trading odd hours, large size would probably not work out.

Of course the fills are instant and it is centrally cleared. So no funny business. A very interesting option.
Profit is where readiness meets Opportunity
  • #50
  • Oct 19, 2006 3:40pm Oct 19, 2006 3:40pm
Quoting Dr.
Thanx to FXO. Really interesting...
Usefull thread. Many important questions but no answers

I guess everybody went to trade futures on CME and stopped posting here

I'm curious about liquidity on ECN's too. If it makes no sense to discuss ECN cause it's software, may be we can discuss prime brokers. Does anybody has some information?

What do you want to know about prime brokers? Myself or Turbokaos could probably answer your questions.
Profit is where readiness meets Opportunity
  • #51
  • Oct 19, 2006 9:34pm Oct 19, 2006 9:34pm
Quoting FXopportunist
I am demoeing a futures platform right now for trading globex/CME. Intraday requires about $850 margin required for 1 pound contract. The futures contract equates to about $12.50 per pip. Overnight Margin is about 2x the intra day. Still very impressive leverage. About 150:1 intra day and 75:1 overnight. As much levergae as I could ever ask for.

The Spread on the pound is mostly 1 pip, sometimes 2 and sometimes 0 but mostly 1. Commision is about $8 per round turn. Obviously this is much much cheaper than trading retail Forex.

For intraday guys trading standard lots. It seems to be the only way to go. Trading odd hours, large size would probably not work out.

Of course the fills are instant and it is centrally cleared. So no funny business. A very interesting option.
Pound futures represent 62,500 pounds rather than the 125,000 euro represented by EURO FX, so each 1 pip fluctuation on cable futures is +/- $6.25, so your leverage figures are off by a multiple of 2. $6 (or less) round turn commissions are plentiful in globex currency futures. Ask around on Elitetrader.

http://www.cme.com/trading/prd/contr...ec_BP2451.html

Also for clarification, the minimum spread on CME British Pound Futures is 1 pip or 0.0001, not ever zero. You can buy the bid and sell the ask but the spread will still be 1 pip or more.
  • #52
  • Oct 20, 2006 5:28am Oct 20, 2006 5:28am
Thanks for the clarification pipscooper. I just brought up the platform again and traded only one contract and it is $6.25 so everyhting said in the previous post was "rosie" by a factor of 2 on the pound just like you said.

The Depth of Market matrix is an interesting way to place trades. I imagine scalpers would like it a bunch. I will have to spend some more time looking at it to decide if it is something I want to fund.

Do you trade globex?
Profit is where readiness meets Opportunity
  • #53
  • Oct 20, 2006 5:56am Oct 20, 2006 5:56am
At the risk of sounding like a nitpicker....it's 1 tick, not 1 pip. A pip has a specific value assigned to it and it may or may not be close to a tick. If we are all going to run to the futures market we need to learn to talk the talk.
  • #54
  • Oct 20, 2006 6:17am Oct 20, 2006 6:17am
Quoting philmcgrew
At the risk of sounding like a nitpicker....it's 1 tick, not 1 pip. A pip has a specific value assigned to it and it may or may not be close to a tick. If we are all going to run to the futures market we need to learn to talk the talk.
No doubt Phil. I am just putting things in Forex terms because it is my only frame of reference. I will work on my futures vocabulary.

Forex, gold, futures, man next thing you know I will be looking at stocks too. As if Forex doesn't keep me busy enough.
Profit is where readiness meets Opportunity
  • #55
  • Edited Oct 21, 2006 6:09am Oct 20, 2006 6:26am | Edited Oct 21, 2006 6:09am
There is a quote page on www.cme.com called e-quivelants which effectively converts the futures price into a spot price in an effort to make it easier to cross over to the dark side. It also shows real time order depth which may be of use to those who care about that stuff.
  • #56
  • Oct 21, 2006 4:34am Oct 21, 2006 4:34am
Quoting FXopportunist
What do you want to know about prime brokers? Myself or Turbokaos could probably answer your questions.
The very simple question: Who are they, prime brokers providing ECN?
I found a list of prime brokers on Currenex web page. Most of them are world largest banks. It's hard to find information about FOREX on their sites, I've checked some. And also many of them offer their proprietary systems for customers, not multi-bank platforms (ECN). Even if they provide ECN, how can I learn about liquidity there? Retail FX brokers are well-discussed on a bunch of online forums, but it's not the same thing about prime brokers. Why? No one claims?

thanx in advance

P.S. It would be better to talk about certain names but I'm not sure if I can post them here according to the rules of forum, cause I've got less then 50 messages.
  • #57
  • Oct 21, 2006 4:41am Oct 21, 2006 4:41am
Quoting FXopportunist

For intraday guys trading standard lots. It seems to be the only way to go. Trading odd hours, large size would probably not work out.

Odd hours - all hours excluding american session? Does the spread widen during these hours?
  • #58
  • Oct 22, 2006 11:43am Oct 22, 2006 11:43am
Quoting Dr.
Odd hours - all hours excluding american session? Does the spread widen during these hours?
Spreads arent the problem liquidity is. While I have not watched the night session in europe yet, I have made note that there is comparitively very thin liquidity in the asian session.
Profit is where readiness meets Opportunity
  • #59
  • Oct 22, 2006 11:50am Oct 22, 2006 11:50am
Quoting Dr.
The very simple question: Who are they, prime brokers providing ECN?
I found a list of prime brokers on Currenex web page. Most of them are world largest banks. It's hard to find information about FOREX on their sites, I've checked some. And also many of them offer their proprietary systems for customers, not multi-bank platforms (ECN). Even if they provide ECN, how can I learn about liquidity there? Retail FX brokers are well-discussed on a bunch of online forums, but it's not the same thing about prime brokers. Why? No one claims?

thanx in advance

P.S. It would be better to talk about certain names but I'm not sure if I can post them here according to the rules of forum, cause I've got less then 50 messages.

You were in the right area, you were looking at the wrong section. Look at the list of white label partners. that is where you will find the brokers that will deal with you the easiest. Most of those banks are look for people who have account sizes in the 5M + area.

Unless you have a very large account most of any of those Currenex brokers should be able to cover your liquidity needs with substantial headroom.

While I don't personally trade with the following people, I found them to be the most private trader friendly.

ADM Derivatives <TABLE style="WIDTH: 140pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=186 border=0 x:str><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 140pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 6802" width=186><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt dotted; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt dotted; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt dotted; WIDTH: 140pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt dotted; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=186 height=17>312-242-7700 Barry Crawford</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Capital Forex Pro <TABLE style="WIDTH: 140pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=186 border=0 x:str><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 140pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 6802" width=186><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt dotted; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt dotted; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt dotted; WIDTH: 140pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt dotted; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=186 height=17>44-20-7456-7035 Gavin</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Man FX Clear <TABLE style="WIDTH: 140pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=186 border=0 x:str><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 140pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 6802" width=186><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt dotted; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt dotted; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt dotted; WIDTH: 140pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt dotted; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=186 height=17>212-935-2134 Steve dispenza</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
ODL Securities <TABLE style="WIDTH: 140pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=186 border=0 x:str><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 140pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 6802" width=186><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt dotted; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt dotted; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt dotted; WIDTH: 140pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt dotted; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=186 height=17>312-893-5070x3212 Doug</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
FC Stone<TABLE style="WIDTH: 140pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=186 border=0 x:str><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 140pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 6802" width=186><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt dotted; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt dotted; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt dotted; WIDTH: 140pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt dotted; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=186 height=17>312-780-6857 Edgar Ramon</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Profit is where readiness meets Opportunity
  • #60
  • Oct 22, 2006 12:44pm Oct 22, 2006 12:44pm
ODL is pretty tight. $25-75mio per pip liquidity in London and New York sessions on U/J and E/U. $5-20mio in asia. Constant 0-1pip spreads anytime (ex news which is around 5).

It may be wise to talk to the reps in london even if you are somewhere else. Outside London, they don't seem to know much about the institutional products...
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