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  • #201
  • Jan 19, 2018 12:36pm Jan 19, 2018 12:36pm
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} i dont understand you! i never did see one without allowing, but wait just to know you speak about same: ask 2,00 bid 1,00 placing sell limit order and buy limit order at 1,5 (inside spread) would not be possible for you with your brokers? i did not have anyone since many many many years where this was not possible. so i just wonder.
Dukas_trader, you can do this with Interactive Brokers.
  • #202
  • Jan 19, 2018 1:02pm Jan 19, 2018 1:02pm
Quoting staassis
{quote} Dukas_trader, you can do this with Interactive Brokers.
you can do this with near any broker, you have to say this to "hey you". he is saying, its not possible.
  • #203
  • Jan 19, 2018 1:08pm Jan 19, 2018 1:08pm
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} you can do this with near any broker, you have to say this to "hey you". he is saying, its not possible.
Well, if we are talking about the same thing, being filled inside the bid-ask spread created by others is not possible with Gain Capital and FXCM. Even if your quotes are more competitive, any new market order will be applied against "liquidity providers", not against yourself. But Interactive Brokers is a different story. You can be the market.
  • #204
  • Jan 19, 2018 1:10pm Jan 19, 2018 1:10pm
Quoting staassis
{quote} Well, if we are talking about the same thing, being filled inside the bid-ask spread created by others is not possible with Gain Capital and FXCM. Even if your quotes are more competitive, any new market order will be applied against "liquidity providers", not against yourself. But Interactive Brokers is a different story. You can be the market.
you can never be filled inside the bid -aks spread :-). when you are filled with a buy you need a ask no have match you ask limit, same with sell order and bid. if you do market order of course you are filled to whatever price.
we speak here about placing a limit order inside the spread, thats all.
  • #205
  • Jan 19, 2018 1:15pm Jan 19, 2018 1:15pm
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} you can never be filled inside the bid -aks spread :-). when you are filled with a buy you need a ask no have match you ask limit, same with sell order and bid. if you do market order of course you are filled to whatever price. we speak here about placing a limit order inside the spread, thats all.
And that's what I'm talking about. If you see 1.00 - 2.00 on the IB screen and enter a limit sell for 1.90, the spread instantly adjusts to 1.00 - 1.90 and the next buy market order is applied against you. As I said, you can trade within the bid-ask spread offered by others. And you do that using limit orders.
  • #206
  • Jan 19, 2018 1:27pm Jan 19, 2018 1:27pm
Quoting staassis
{quote} And that's what I'm talking about. If you see 1.00 - 2.00 on the IB screen and enter a limit sell for 1.90, the spread instantly adjusts to 1.00 - 1.90 and the next buy market order is applied against you. As I said, you can trade within the bid-ask spread offered by others. And you do that using limit orders.
i dont understand you. you have a limit sell by 1.9, and what will a 1.0-1.9 (bid-ask) change on this against 1.0-2.0?? still 0.9 far away until your limit will trigger, same as before.
  • #207
  • Jan 19, 2018 1:46pm Jan 19, 2018 1:46pm
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} i dont understand you. you have a limit sell by 1.9, and what will a 1.0-1.9 (bid-ask) change on this against 1.0-2.0?? still 0.9 far away until your limit will trigger, same as before.
With Interactive Brokers, my sell limit order at 1.90 is not "0.9 far away until" it "will trigger". It may get triggered any time by an arriving market order. The 1.00 bid you see on the screen is just the most competitive limit order... The bid-ask is no longer 1.00-2.00 the moment I enter a limit sell for 1.90.
  • #208
  • Jan 19, 2018 1:52pm Jan 19, 2018 1:52pm
Quoting staassis
{quote} With Interactive Brokers, my sell limit order at 1.90 is not "0.9 far away until" it "will trigger". It may get triggered any time by an arriving market order. The 1.00 bid you see on the screen is just the most competitive limit order... The bid-ask is no longer 1.00-2.00 the moment I enter a limit sell for 1.90.
exactly!

but what you forget: the new market order from someone elso is changing this. so of course you get filled between your former ask-bid level, but this is unimportant. because of the market order without any limit (slippage control) you get filled with 1,9 because someone put in a order with whatever high price, so bid-ask change infinite-1,9, and thats why you get filled.
its nothing different, or better broker or something done between spreads, its only changed ask in this case!
  • #209
  • Jan 19, 2018 1:53pm Jan 19, 2018 1:53pm
How do I use a limit order in conjunction with a bid-ask spread?
By J.B. Maverick

A:
There is always a bid-ask spread involved in the purchase or sale of any investment asset. The bid represents the price available to an investor wishing to sell the asset, while the ask price is the lowest price available to an investor wishing to buy the asset. The size of the spread between the bid and ask prices is primarily determined by the liquidity of the market for the specific asset. For example, in the stock market, the difference between the bid and ask prices is proportionately much smaller for a heavily traded stock such as Apple than it is for a very thinly traded penny stock. Similarly, in the forex market, major currency pairs such as EUR/USD typically have a bid-ask spread of one pip or less, while more thinly traded pairs such as USD/NOK have a spread as high as 100 pips.

The key point an investor using limit orders must keep in mind is that if he or she is trying to buy, then the asking price, not merely the bid price, must fall to the level of his or her limit order price, or below, for the order to be filled. As an example, consider a situation in which a stock is trading bid at $12 a share with an asking price of $13 a share. The bid-ask spread in this instance is $1. If a trader expects the stock price to retrace back to $10 a share, at which point he or she wants to buy the stock, he or she must keep in mind that when the stock is quoted as trading at $10 a share, the ask price is likely to be in the area of $11 a share. Therefore, if the trader wants to insure that he or she buys the stock on a pullback to $10 a share, he or she places a limit order to buy the stock at $11 a share, or perhaps a bit above the $11 level.

Pasted from <https://www.investopedia.com/ask/ans...ask-spread.asp>
Markets are not efficient, rather they are effective - Jones
  • #210
  • Jan 19, 2018 2:00pm Jan 19, 2018 2:00pm
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} its nothing different, or better broker or something done between spreads, its only changed spread!
Unfortunately, it is different from the world of Gain Capital or FXCM. There you cannot "change the spread". You enter 1.90 and nobody hits you. New market orders still hit the 2.00 level of some "liquidity provider"... My point was only this: you can influence the bid-ask spread and be the market with IB but you cannot do this with many others. Big, big difference.
  • #211
  • Jan 19, 2018 2:05pm Jan 19, 2018 2:05pm
Quoting staassis
{quote} Unfortunately, it is different from the world of Gain Capital or FXCM. There you cannot "change the spread". You enter 1.90 and nobody hits you. New market orders still hit the 2.00 level of some "liquidity provider"... My point was only this: you can influence the bid-ask spread and be the market with IB but you cannot do this with many others. Big, big difference.
yes true, there is difference between triggering limitprice and then standing order in market and standing liquity direct in the market.
but both cant trade between spread, because the market order changes this spread.
but its only hairsplitting, i think we have same point but call it different.
  • #212
  • Jan 19, 2018 11:32pm Jan 19, 2018 11:32pm
Quoting staassis
{quote} Unfortunately, it is different from the world of Gain Capital or FXCM. There you cannot "change the spread". You enter 1.90 and nobody hits you. New market orders still hit the 2.00 level of some "liquidity provider"... My point was only this: you can influence the bid-ask spread and be the market with IB but you cannot do this with many others. Big, big difference.
I think LMAX is also doable... so called 'price improvement'?
https://forums.babypips.com/t/lmax-p...or-hft/66683/4
By the way, Gain Capital and FXCM are both well-known scam brokers, so no worth mentioning them anyway...
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
  • #213
  • Jan 21, 2018 3:50am Jan 21, 2018 3:50am
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} i dont understand you! i never did see one without allowing, but wait just to know you speak about same: ask 2,00 bid 1,00 placing sell limit order and buy limit order at 1,5 (inside spread) would not be possible for you with your brokers? i did not have anyone since many many many years where this was not possible. so i just wonder.

Pending orders:
BuyLimit is a pending order to buy assets for a security at a price lower than the current one. The order will be executed (modified into market order Buy) if the Ask price reaches or falls below the price set in the pending order.
SellLimit is a pending order to sell assets for a security at a price higher than the current one. The order will be executed (modified into market order Sell) if the Bid price reaches or rises above the price set in the pending order.
BuyStop is a pending order to buy assets for a security at a price higher than the current one. The order will be executed (modified into market order Buy) if the Ask price reaches or rises above the price set in the pending order.
SellStop is a pending order to sell assets for a security at a price lower than the current one. The order will be executed (modified into market order Sell) if the Bid price reaches or falls below the price set in the pending order.

Trading in d spread:
early, retail brokers were not allowed traders to modify their stop loss take profit modified when price is close to order open price X pips.
example:
if your order floating at price 1.0000 n u want to place stop loss or take profit at 1.0005 [5 pips distance] u wouldnt allowed to that.

trading in d spread means u can place ur take profit and stop loss at any price even in d spread. this also applied to pending orders. Actually many retail brokers allow that.

hope this clears
WaBaS Where are Buyers and Sellers
  • #214
  • Edited 7:06am Jan 21, 2018 4:56am | Edited 7:06am
Quoting mr.brown
this also applied to pending orders. Actually many retail brokers allow that. hope this clears
We can place limits inside the spread only with ECN brokers. however it's not a good idea IMO.

there are VERY few ECN...
you usually need to make a large deposit too.



And to be clear, I'm not against non-ecn brokers lol.. I'm against scam brokers and their obscure practices.
  • #215
  • Jan 21, 2018 8:03am Jan 21, 2018 8:03am
Quoting HeyYou
{quote} We can place limits inside the spread only with ECN brokers. however it's not a good idea IMO. there are VERY few ECN... you usually need to make a large deposit too. And to be clear, I'm not against non-ecn brokers lol.. I'm against scam brokers and their obscure practices.
for retails w latency of >2ms it really doesnt matter if u can trade ind spread or not
WaBaS Where are Buyers and Sellers
  • #216
  • Jan 21, 2018 8:19am Jan 21, 2018 8:19am
Quoting mr.brown
{quote} Pending orders: BuyLimit is a pending order to buy assets for a security at a price lower than the current one. The order will be executed (modified into market order Buy) if the Ask price reaches or falls below the price set in the pending order. SellLimit is a pending order to sell assets for a security at a price higher than the current one. The order will be executed (modified into market order Sell) if the Bid price reaches or rises above the price set in the pending order. BuyStop is a pending order to buy assets for a security at...
yes, but why you tell me this, you have to say this heyyou. i did say same as your words.
with any good broker you can even set a limit order at any place in market, even in negative price, so its nothing more then a market order with slippage control. (even with metatrader , when you put in a market order with slippage parameter it is nothing more the a limit order set, with very high chance of filling at the moment)
so your definition of a limit order is not directly correct, this was definition for basic broker from old days.
correct is: limit order is buying/selling at this price or better.
  • #217
  • Jan 21, 2018 9:44am Jan 21, 2018 9:44am
Quoting HeyYou
{quote} We can place limits inside the spread only with ECN brokers. however it's not a good idea IMO. there are VERY few ECN... you usually need to make a large deposit too. And to be clear, I'm not against non-ecn brokers lol.. I'm against scam brokers and their obscure practices.
are you sure you can not set limits with simple metatrader broker like fxcm inside the spread?
i will ask a friend tommorow if he will test it. looks strange for me, not possible to set a limit order there or at any place.
so when you have bid 1.00 and ask 2.00 you say put in limitorder buy at 1,9 will not be possible with just normal brokers?
i will know the answer tommorow, but at the moment i am near 100% sure you are not correct, but because i dont trade with such smaller broker any more, i have to wait to confirm.

and we speak here about a normal limit order. not a order to be own marketmaker/LP with this limit?

or whats exactly the point, that you say its only possible with very very few brokers to set limitorder between the spread? it really looks like you did understand something complete wrong, but i need to find out exactly the point , because looks like you speak about different things than you write here, so i am a little bit confused.
why you think setting a limit order at the price you want to set it (in this case between the spread) is no good idea? i think this is total impossible to say, because all this depends on the strategy? i am really confused.
  • #218
  • Jan 21, 2018 9:54am Jan 21, 2018 9:54am
Quoting dukas_trader
? i am really confused.
I know, anyways what's the point of placing a limit order inside the spread when the only counterpart IS the broker ?

if the broker says bid is 1 it's 1 lmao
  • #219
  • Jan 21, 2018 10:11am Jan 21, 2018 10:11am
In ECN environment you have many counterparts

I gave an explaination years ago here:

https://www.forexfactory.com/showthr...85#post3936485

even though I wouldn't use the same words today, I would rather say

"Both ECN and NDD are STP": stp is a term used mostly to trick people into thinking that the broker is not a MM, while it can be very well!


p.s. I had to register a new nickname as I lost the password!
  • #220
  • Jan 21, 2018 10:12am Jan 21, 2018 10:12am
Quoting HeyYou
{quote} I know, anyways what's the point of placing a limit order inside the spread when the only counterpart IS the broker ? if the broker says bid is 1 it's 1 lmao
whats the point of setting your limit order in any place, when your market only is your counterpart ??

same question.

solution: i want a order at a spezial price maximum, so setting limit order.
i trade only with limit order, any of my market order is with slippage control, so always limit order. but anyone with not small amounts is doing so.
so question is not, whats the point of placing limit order inside spread, its done when you have a strategy that want buy at the price and by luck the spread is so that its inside spread, spread is even so unimportant at this moment, when you want to buy at maximum price , thats all.

simple, or?
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