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Is anyone here an institutional trader?

  • #1,221
  • Jan 19, 2018 9:39am Jan 19, 2018 9:39am
Quoting mollyellie
{quote} ok. lets see if i can answer this without being confusing.. I can only speak to hedge fund execution, not the other type of institutions that might execute foreign exchange. firstly, position size in total is unlikely to be the same as order size. Generally people build their positions incrementally. so to use the eurusd as a typical currency pair. And assuming 'normal' market conditions and everyone executes a little differently So order size:.. that will be directly related to the amount of capital that a portfolio manager is managing....
I would like to thank you a lot for answering me....I really appreciate it for giving your insight
I totally agree with you " position size in total is unlikely to be the same as order size. Generally people build their positions incrementally"
And i guess liquidity of other pairs like gbpnzd gbpjpy euraud etc is less compered to eurusd ??

'So using the algo in a banks portal might look something like this.. order to buy 400m eurusd over 4 hours with a limit price'..so the algo's trade this way..can you please explain what other types of algo are used including high frequency trading algos...?!

ohh that's interesting that 'Very few portfolio managers use candlesticks or charts as their starting point for a trade'..so basically what do they look into ???economics..political issues...interest rate ???

'Flow and order book information used to be common place but these days you got to jail for passing that information' - oh yes i read a article regarding it
http://www.straitstimes.com/business...gful-dismissal
'The bank claims the chats revealed her "intention to trade with a view to affect or manipulate' - ..so bank traders chat with other bank traders on a chat.
and can you please tell why and how fake bids are placed to market and withdrawn before it gets executed?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-front-running
https://www.ft.com/content/2b3460f0-...2-2c9be7f3120a
can you please explain what is front running forex market that institutions do?
And what are the currency options bought to protect adverse move in currency markets

Flow and order book information does only banks have access to it or hedge funds who have a prime brokerage with a bank have access to it also ?
And flow and order book info is the amount of volume and orders available at a particular price..am i right?

Yup you were clear and helpful..thanks..and please answer the questions that i have asked..and sorry i ask many questions..haha...i am curious and hungry for knowledge and share my knowledge..
Have a great weekend
  • #1,222
  • Edited 10:19am Jan 19, 2018 9:56am | Edited 10:19am
Quoting skenobi
{quote} If you had really read this entire thread, all of your current questions would've been answered satisfactorily. You have another weekend coming up. Maybe you can spend that time re-reading this thread in depth... although I don't really see how any of the information in this thread actually makes anyone any money.
Hi..thank you for the quick reply..oh sorry...i sure will read again.i will make the best use of the weekend reading the thread...and i definitely will come back with a few questions that i dont get answer to..lol

"although I don't really see how any of the information in this thread actually makes anyone any money" - Yes bro there may be countless threads that may help to trade and make money...but this is the real golden thread..because brother this thread has information that no retail trader does...truth is institutions rule the market...as a retail trader he/she only knows how retail traders trade...but does not get a opportunity to trade for a bank/institution or get to know how is it back there trading for institutions/banks.....i am more curious as a retailer trade to know how big whales trade...it gives me a understanding how things work...as making money is not everything and also knowledge helps to make money..i am sure being a ex institutional trader the way you view the market is different than a average retail trader
And yes my goal in life is to make lot of money in next few years and trade as a private investment firm.(institution)

Can you please give more insight on how banks and institutions trade that you have not mentioned earlier in the thread...
Do institutions and banks fight with each other to move the price in the direction of there choice?
So as 24/5 bid and price is available so its the algo's offering them most of the time?
during news i read in thread that liquidity is dry and when released it moves a lot of pips..how is it determined by banks that we will make it move this amount of pips...across so and so pairs?
Thanks again for your help
I am just a young guy trying to understand how it works when trading at a bank/institution.....
  • #1,223
  • Edited 11:50am Jan 19, 2018 11:40am | Edited 11:50am
Quoting traderforlyf
{quote} Hi..thank you for the quick reply..oh sorry...i sure will read again.i will make the best use of the weekend reading the thread...and i definitely will come back with a few questions that i dont get answer to..lol "although I don't really see how any of the information in this thread actually makes anyone any money" - Yes bro there may be countless threads that may help to trade and make money...but this is the real golden thread..because brother this thread has information that no retail trader does...truth is institutions...
ALL of your questions in this post that I'm replying and also in your post before that have been covered earlier in detail by this thread.

You were not asking anything new in your last 3 posts. I doubt very much you'll ask anything new in future posts.

Read.
The.
Thread.

It's only been 60+ pages. And you're just being lazy.

I'm afraid I have to put you in my Ignore list.

Good luck!

Attached Image
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
  • #1,224
  • Edited 10:05pm Jan 19, 2018 11:49am | Edited 10:05pm
Quoting seeit
{quote} You were keystrokes away from disclosing your edge. My guess is a future's data proxy used in a long-term composite volume profile.
I'm an old school price action trader.

"Futures" and "volume" data are some things you'd never find in my arsenal. (I have it... I just never use it.)

In fact, I'm violently allergic to so-called traders who think volume data will make them money, and to those with their never-ending quest of finding institutional volume data like it's some kind of holy grail.
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
  • #1,225
  • Jan 19, 2018 7:52pm Jan 19, 2018 7:52pm
[quote=traderforlyf;10690042]{quote} I would like to thank you a lot for answering me....I really appreciate it for giving your insight I totally agree with you " position size in total is unlikely to be the same as order size. Generally people build their positions incrementally" And i guess liquidity of other pairs like gbpnzd gbpjpy euraud etc is less compered to eurusd ?? 'So using the algo in a banks portal might look something like this.. order to buy 400m eurusd over 4 hours with a limit price'..so the algo's trade this way..can you please explain what other types of algo are used including high frequency trading algos...?! ohh that's interesting that 'Very few portfolio managers use candlesticks or charts as their starting point for a trade'..so basically what do they look into ???economics..political
ok..


Eurusd is the most liquid of the currency pairs. Something like gbpnzd is difficult as is anything in kiwi if one needs to do size,...That being said something like gbpnzd is far more volatile than eurusd so the position size in gbpnzd will be much smaller to achieve the same level of risk.

High frequency trading:.. it is not an area of expertise of mine and i am not the right person to explain it in detail. They trade intra second. For mine their methods are definitely unethical and arguably illegal. Michael Lewis wrote a good book on them, Flash boys i think it is called.

As to using charts etc.. I have never seen a career profitable portfolio manager who depends on any one discipline. Yes, most will use charts in their process somewhere but is rarely as their starting point. They will form a view and use charts to help them translate that view into a manageable risk.
That view will usually be formed with fundamentals, upcoming events , price action etc etc etc. Quite often the portfolio manager will have an expert chart person around somewhere.

On price action for a second:.. i dont mean the eurusd looks bid/offered etc. I mean the interaction of the different asset classes will present a picture of its own. The interaction between say fixed income, commodities, stocks . The yield curve, high yield credit. The insides of stock indices (the staples vs discretionaries in the US for eg).. There is a long list of different 'price action' indicators.

In side trading is fx is now basically the same as it has been in stock markets forever, as it always should have been.

If a prime broker was to release position information about their clients that business would end very very quickly.
If i was to hear of it my next call would be to the sec.

Front running an order is pretty much what the term would imply. Basically trading on any information that is material and not publicly It is illegal. It always has been but it has only been recently that the regulators have finally caught up with it in foreign exchange trading.
  • #1,226
  • Jan 19, 2018 8:03pm Jan 19, 2018 8:03pm
Quoting skenobi
{quote} I'm an old school price action trader. "Futures" and "volume" data are some things you'd never find in my arsenal. In fact, I'm violently allergic to so-called traders who think volume data will make them money, and to those with their never-ending quest of finding institutional volume data like it's some kind of holy grail.
Are we talking a publicly owned or private institution right now? I get the feeling you're corporate... Tough break.
"The fun is in the hunt. Not the kill."
  • #1,227
  • Jan 19, 2018 9:44pm Jan 19, 2018 9:44pm
Quoting mollyellie
Quoting traderforlyf
{quote} I would like to thank you a lot for answering me....I really appreciate it for giving your insight I totally agree with you " position size in total is unlikely to be the same as order size. Generally people build their positions incrementally" And i guess liquidity of other pairs like gbpnzd gbpjpy euraud etc is less compered to eurusd ?? 'So using the algo in a banks portal might look something like this.. order to buy 400m eurusd over 4 hours with a limit price'..so the algo's trade
...
thanks again for being kind and answering me
'Eurusd is the most liquid of the currency pairs. Something like gbpnzd is difficult as is anything in kiwi if one needs to do size,...That being said something like gbpnzd is far more volatile than eurusd so the position size in gbpnzd will be much smaller to achieve the same level of risk' - It totally makes sense

Flash Boys: A Wall Street Revolt
Book by Lewis Michael - thanks i downloaded it I will read it

'In side trading is fx is now basically the same as it has been in stock markets forever, as it always should have been' yup true

'If a prime broker was to release position information about their clients that business would end very very quickly' - lol yeah but the prime broker will use this information for there advantage i guess...

'Front running an order is pretty much what the term would imply. Basically trading on any information that is material and not publicly It is illegal. It always has been but it has only been recently that the regulators have finally caught up with it in foreign exchange trading' - now i get it

thank you gentleman for answering all my questions...have a wonderful trading year
  • #1,228
  • Edited 10:07pm Jan 19, 2018 9:50pm | Edited 10:07pm
Quoting Redeflect
{quote} Are we talking a publicly owned or private institution right now? I get the feeling you're corporate... Tough break.
I don't understand the question. "institutional" means prop trading desks in the Banks.

I was an institutional trader in FX and FX options from 1995-2011.

I only traded with other Banks and occasionally would intercede to speak to corporates when the sales traders servicing them don't know their asses from their elbows.

Nowadays, I'm trading for a closed-end family office fund (among other things).
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
  • #1,229
  • Jan 20, 2018 1:04am Jan 20, 2018 1:04am
Quoting JacobFordFX
{quote} I'll give you an example, a very good friend of mine ran the Spot GbP/Usd book. He was given an order to sell 2 yards (billion) of gbp/usd at best and the entire desk and bank for that matter knew it but none of us could trade ahead of that or during the time he work the order nor could we trade any GBPxxx's. All we could do is watch him drive gbp/usd lower by 250 pips in the matter of an hour or so. It was great fun to watch but we couldn't capitalize on it. That's the kind of trade, if you knew when it was coming could make you entire...

wow mind blowing how is it done - gbp/usd lower by 250 pips in the matter of an hour or so ?????
please explain
  • #1,230
  • Jan 20, 2018 1:26am Jan 20, 2018 1:26am
Quoting JacobFordFX
{quote} AIf a dealer quoted a customer say 100 million Eur/Nzd and got given. The dealer will probably get rid of most of that risk through Eur/Usd and Nzd/Usd or maybe even Aud/Nzd and then manage the more liquid Aud/Usd pairEBS
How is the above done i understand the logic but i do not understand how its done..please explain

Quoting JacobFordFX
{quote} or Reuters Dealing machine gives up your name. It may be a big market but a small community of dealers and everyone knows everyone else. You wouldn't be able find a bid anywhere unless you were prepared to take a huge loss.
Dealing machine like bloomberg or reuters shows names of banks and institutions?
  • #1,231
  • Jan 20, 2018 2:03am Jan 20, 2018 2:03am
Quoting skenobi
{quote} I don't understand the question. "institutional" means prop trading desks in the Banks. I was an institutional trader in FX and FX options from 1995-2011. I only traded with other Banks and occasionally would intercede to speak to corporates when the sales traders servicing them don't know their asses from their elbows. Nowadays, I'm trading for a closed-end family office fund (among other things).
I was basically asking if you traded for a bank or a hedge fund. I assumed the former because of the comment towards futures and volume.
"The fun is in the hunt. Not the kill."
  • #1,232
  • Jan 20, 2018 5:59am Jan 20, 2018 5:59am
"Can someone tell me about some major risk problems during trading,or give some alerts at initiative level.
  • #1,233
  • Jan 20, 2018 9:50am Jan 20, 2018 9:50am
Quoting johnmmf
"Can someone tell me about some major risk problems during trading,or give some alerts at initiative level.
major risks: you lose money, time ,family, health or your character.
alerts: when you see major risk happen.
  • #1,234
  • Jan 22, 2018 1:52pm Jan 22, 2018 1:52pm
Quoting skenobi
{quote}.... Nowadays, I'm trading for a closed-end family office fund (among other things).
hi skenobi,

first of all, I just finished reading all 62 pages of this thread; and it's been quite an experience. Lots to chew. In the process I ended up ignoring some users due to their annoying posts; and I think you know who they are :lol

question that perhaps nobody has asked so far; is last look.

it happens quite often in the retail world; when a trader is profitable; he start seeing rejection of his/her orders by the retail broker; or the liquidity provider on the other side of the trade.

1. do this last look issues happen to you at the moment while trading the family office funds?

2. does it happen in the insto world as well? i mean if an insto trader (flow trader) receives orders from an institution that is known to place orders at the *right moment*; do you get to reject the business?

3. you menationed in earlier posts that it is better to NOT trade pegged currencies. what do you think about trading japanese Yen? eventhough it is not pegged; but we all know that BOJ sometimes steps on the gear; and farts at their currency to the point of hurting retail crowd out there.

best
  • #1,235
  • Jan 22, 2018 11:16pm Jan 22, 2018 11:16pm
Quoting alphadude
1. do this last look issues happen to you at the moment while trading the family office funds?
I wouldn't know. Never noticed. Maybe it has something to do with that we (as a client) don't usually leave orders in "usual suspect" zones of order clusters? I don't know. I totally get that it happens to other people. Frankly we don't really care what happens to those other people.

Quoting alphadude
2. does it happen in the insto world as well? i mean if an insto trader (flow trader) receives orders from an institution that is known to place orders at the *right moment*; do you get to reject the business?
I don't know what an insto trader is. Must be an Aussie thing. In any case, our orderbook clients back in the day weren't that sophisticated (at least, the ones in my previous deployments). So we (my previous employer Banks) rejected nothing.

Quoting alphadude
3. you menationed in earlier posts that it is better to NOT trade pegged currencies. what do you think about trading japanese Yen? eventhough it is not pegged; but we all know that BOJ sometimes steps on the gear; and farts at their currency to the point of hurting retail crowd out there. best
I don't have an opinion about the yen. I trade whatever moves.
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
  • #1,236
  • Jan 24, 2018 3:09pm Jan 24, 2018 3:09pm
hi skenobi,

check this video out; it touches many of gruelling subjects discussed in this forum

Inserted Video


what's your take on what he said in the video?
  • #1,237
  • Jan 24, 2018 7:52pm Jan 24, 2018 7:52pm
Quoting alphadude
hi skenobi, check this video out; it touches many of gruelling subjects discussed in this forum https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IsYk_ziars what's your take on what he said in the video?
I'll post videos if I have a point to make. But I won't ask people to watch it or ask people what they think about it.

My points, I've already made in this thread.

What's YOUR take from the video (that you thought was interesting to post)?

In other words, do you have a point to make?
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
  • #1,238
  • Jan 24, 2018 8:05pm Jan 24, 2018 8:05pm
Quoting skenobi
{quote} I'll post videos if I have a point to make. But I won't ask people to watch it or ask people what they think about it. My points, I've already made in this thread. What's YOUR take from the video (that you thought was interesting to post)? In other words, do you have a point to make?
look mate it is really annoying. you r now gettting onto my nerves
  • #1,239
  • Jan 24, 2018 8:28pm Jan 24, 2018 8:28pm
Quoting JacobFordFX
True, flows are only good if the institution that you work for lets you "capitalize" on that order flow. But since 2008 the public scrutiny of banks has made that kind of trading taboo and proprietary trading has become a dirty word. Banks now just want to quote their customers and cover the risk. It's not the way it use to be, not as much fun as it use to be.
Right, no more front-running lol
  • #1,240
  • Jan 24, 2018 9:24pm Jan 24, 2018 9:24pm
Quoting alphadude
{quote} look mate it is really annoying. you r now gettting onto my nerves
Snowflake, perhaps? Oh well...

Note to the rest: Feel free to set me on your Ignore list.

Of course, y'all don't need anybody's permission for that.
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
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