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  • #41
  • Dec 19, 2017 4:01pm Dec 19, 2017 4:01pm
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} yes, true. this with rollover was only a addon to your perfect describtion. but in general there is no need for this method, only maybe when learning programming its more easy to manage.
That's where we aren't seeing eye to eye. In general, most manual traders need a way to scale into a position with multiple orders and close it with one click <or> scale out of a position with partial closing(s) of a larger order. Either case requires the use of hedging followed by sending the broker server the "multiple-closeby" reconciliation command. The only way around this is to open a "netting account" with a MT5 broker.
  • #42
  • Dec 19, 2017 4:27pm Dec 19, 2017 4:27pm
Quoting Nicholishen
{quote} That's where we aren't seeing eye to eye. In general, most manual traders need a way to scale into a position with multiple orders and close it with one click <or> scale out of a position with partial closing(s) of a larger order. Either case requires the use of hedging followed by sending the broker server the "multiple-closeby" reconciliation command. The only way around this is to open a "netting account" with a MT5 broker.
ok i see. but this can simple programmed experts also do, where you can define what amount you will close in what currency. but i understand your point, makes sense.
  • #43
  • Dec 19, 2017 6:25pm Dec 19, 2017 6:25pm
My respect to the OP for creating such a fascinating tool.

Leaving aside the discussion of "hedging as a strategy" or "associated extra costs" aside, Hedging Capability in a platform like MT4 is designed to scam new inexperienced traders who simply don't understand how used and available margin works. Its a "weapon of (penny) account destruction" if coupled with max position sizes and hedging to reduce used margin to zero and open other new trades... it creates a cycle of hope and frustration for many. How? The reason is simple. There is a reason by brokers turn used margin to a big fat ZERO on both the hedged positions! Same reason why brokers offers a "Stop-Out" % level far lower than the margin call warning level. To allow traders to lose more than "used margin" on a trade is in itself the biggest scam in this industry. I put $x in a trade, I want to be margin called when equity drops below $x lol

  1. Hedging = Vehicle for scammers against most of 90% losing community of reckless and greedy traders
  2. Hedging is also a vehicle for experienced traders who can read the market well, understand the risks involved and manage their exposure during transition of range to trend to range market conditions.
  3. Hedging can be a powerful tool for scalpers during active ranges
  4. Hedging is also a VERY powerful tool for trend following position traders but ONLY if you freeze floating profits and take tiny losses or move SL to BE... millipede style
  5. Hedging is banned in USA for one main reason imo. To prevent SCAMS by inflated account performance and hiding floating losses.

Just my two cents. I am no hedging expert but it stank like a rotten egg in my initial years hence this post.

Staying in my lane...
  • #44
  • Dec 19, 2017 7:19pm Dec 19, 2017 7:19pm
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} ok i see. but this can simple programmed experts also do, where you can define what amount you will close in what currency. but i understand your point, makes sense.
I think most traders don't understand the possibilities because they don't know how to properly utilize closeby. Let's say I'm using mean reversion and I set up a grid of limit orders on the outer edge of my channel. Now, let's say I want to setup a scale out grid (in case it starts to trend against) and I want to also setup a scale out grid in the opposite direction (taking profit). This is not a "hedging" strategy this is a position size strategy. You close partial orders by making smaller orders in the opposite direction. It's just like trading options where you BTO->STC or STO -> BTC. Most grid traders are constantly opening simultaneous buy/sell hedges, this is not that, this is completely different model which requires a little 'outside of the box' thinking.
  • #45
  • Dec 19, 2017 7:26pm Dec 19, 2017 7:26pm
Quoting Nicholishen
{quote} I think most traders don't understand the possibilities because they don't know how to properly utilize closeby. Let's say I'm using mean reversion and I set up a grid of limit orders on the outer edge of my channel. Now, let's say I want to setup a scale out grid (in case it starts to trend against) and I want to also setup a scale out grid in the opposite direction (taking profit). This is not a "hedging" strategy this is a position size strategy. You close partial orders by making smaller orders in the opposite direction. It's just like...
I wish there was a equivalent OpenBy() to pay spread/commission only once :-(
Staying in my lane...
  • #46
  • Dec 19, 2017 7:28pm Dec 19, 2017 7:28pm
Quoting VEEFX
{quote} I wish there was a equivalent OpenBy() to pay spread/commission only once :-(
What do you mean?
  • #47
  • Dec 19, 2017 8:00pm Dec 19, 2017 8:00pm
Quoting Nicholishen
{quote} What do you mean?
Open Buy and Sell at the same time and pay spread and commission only once
Staying in my lane...
  • #48
  • Dec 19, 2017 8:05pm Dec 19, 2017 8:05pm
Quoting VEEFX
{quote} Open Buy and Sell at the same time and pay spread and commission only once
Why would anyone want to do that? That's literally the same thing as sitting on the sidelines...
  • #49
  • Dec 19, 2017 8:28pm Dec 19, 2017 8:28pm
Quoting Nicholishen
{quote} Why would anyone want to do that? That's literally the same thing as sitting on the sidelines...
Dont ask me bro. I am just a noob :-)

certain levels do require going both ways if one can pinpoint such levels within 5 pip accuracy.
Staying in my lane...
  • #50
  • Dec 19, 2017 9:09pm Dec 19, 2017 9:09pm
Quoting VEEFX
{quote} Dont ask me bro. I am just a noob :-) certain levels do require going both ways if one can pinpoint such levels within 5 pip accuracy.
I don't understand. Opening hedged is a waste of money because you simultaneously bought to open and sold to close; paying the dealer his spread and commish.
  • #51
  • Dec 19, 2017 9:26pm Dec 19, 2017 9:26pm
Quoting Nicholishen
{quote} I don't understand. Opening hedged is a waste of money because you simultaneously bought to open and sold to close; paying the dealer his spread and commish.
I know. I am just pulling your leg dude.... just in case there is any creative or hidden way to pay only once via 'Open'by()
Staying in my lane...
  • #52
  • Dec 19, 2017 10:02pm Dec 19, 2017 10:02pm
Quoting VEEFX
{quote} I know. I am just pulling your leg dude.... just in case there is any creative or hidden way to pay only once via 'Open'by()
Here's a secret way to "OpenBy" with zero spreads and commissions!
Inserted Code
//returns net position of a successful "OpenBy". -1 if unsuccessful.
double  OpenBy(string symbol,double lots)
{
   return 0.0;
}
  • #53
  • Dec 20, 2017 6:16am Dec 20, 2017 6:16am
Quoting Nicholishen
{quote} I think most traders don't understand the possibilities because they don't know how to properly utilize closeby. Let's say I'm using mean reversion and I set up a grid of limit orders on the outer edge of my channel. Now, let's say I want to setup a scale out grid (in case it starts to trend against) and I want to also setup a scale out grid in the opposite direction (taking profit). This is not a "hedging" strategy this is a position size strategy. You close partial orders by making smaller orders in the opposite direction. It's just like...
i see your point.
i did grid trading in my first years, but later i checked that i get much more wins with setting all volume on 1 point, because a strategy has often 1 optimum point, and reduce so drawdown and increase win same time extrem. but its really different for the different strategies.

when same math strategie is used, often setting one big order volume will get better results then grid system, all depends on how its calculated, best is writing an expert proogramm to do the comparing between all differnet trading styles in one backtest cycle. its same like with partially closing, closing all or nothing is often much better for good wins against closing parts only, because closing is correct or is not correct. (without the reason of partially closing because volume is so high it will not be possible to close later in 1 part for a good spread)

but i do understand your example of using closeby. for manuell trading a subjetive strategy with no fixed rules it may be a good style to do this grid way.
  • #54
  • Dec 29, 2017 9:41am Dec 29, 2017 9:41am
Quoting Nicholishen
In case anyone is interested, here is the logic for reconciling all hedged positions as netting. void ReconcileHedgeOrders() { for(int i=OrdersTotal()-1;i>0&&!IsStopped();i--) { if(OrderSelect(i,SELECT_BY_POS) && OrderSymbol()==_Symbol && OrderType()<2 && (!m_locked_magic || OrderMagicNumber() == MAGIC) ) { int type = OrderType(); int ticket = OrderTicket(); for(int j=i-1;OrderSelect(j,SELECT_BY_POS);j--) { if(OrderSymbol()==_Symbol && OrderType()<2 && OrderType()!=type && (!m_locked_magic || OrderMagicNumber() == MAGIC) ) { if(!OrderCloseBy(OrderTicket(),ticket))...
Many thanks for your work!
What´s behind the function !IsStopped()?
  • #55
  • Jan 1, 2018 3:35am Jan 1, 2018 3:35am
Quoting MoneyZilla
This is a superb EA! It is all the manual trader would ever need! However, they will not understand what you just gave them, I suppose... You have been around here for over 12 years. I do wonder, why are you throwing pearls to pigs?
I think what MoneyZilla said has merits.
When used properly, this tool is invaluable. The question is how many of us would actually know HOW to use it?

Nicholisen, it's very generous of you to share this with the wider community. I think most people have no idea how useful this is.

For the last few months, I have been working on something similar by incorporating same concepts into a fully automatic EA.

Run it on a low risk profile and use this on multiple pairs and 40-60% per annum is not a problem at all.

IF you know what you are doing.
  • #56
  • Jan 15, 2018 10:39pm Jan 15, 2018 10:39pm
Very fast indeed, Excellent work! Thanks for sharing!
I always use OrderCloseBy or MultipleCloseBy for closing positions. One suggestion: The algorithm sorts the "buy" and "sell" positions by lot size first; if Net position is positive or negative (!=0) the netting method:" last buy"-> hedge-> last sell (or opposite) + remaining open positions. If sorting (buy and sell positions) in the code is done by "position price" first, the outcome should be better. For example: If i have many open positions and at some point I want to be as much as possible Net positive and I want to close all my sell position very quickly, then your panel is an indispensable tool. To make myself clear: For example:
acc=2000; cur.price=1.22600
case1: The algorithm (as it is) sorts "buy" and "sell" positions by "lot size and order" (if lot size is same, by order):

order-type-size-price-profit
---------------------------------
01 buy 1 1.22590 =+100
02 buy 1 1.22580 =+200
03 buy 1 1.22630 =-300
04 buy 1 1.22610 =-100
05 buy 1 1.22620 =-200
06 sell 1 1.22585 =-150
07 sell 1 1.22565 =-350
acc=2000; Equity= 1200; float.profit=-800

the algo does the hedging this way: last sell->last buy (spread paid only once)
(07->05)=(-350)+(-200)=-550
(06->04)=(-150)+(-100)=-250
plus still open positions:
01 buy 1 1.22590 =+100
02 buy 1 1.22580 =+200
03 buy 1 1.22630 =-300
acc=1200; Equity= 1200; float.profit=0
acc=acc+(-550)+(-250)=2000-550-250=1200 (acc=1200;netting=-800)

***************************************
case2: If the algorithm sorts "buy" and "sell" positions by "position price" first:
03 buy 1 1.22630 =-300
05 buy 1 1.22620 =-200
04 buy 1 1.22610 =-100
01 buy 1 1.22590 =+100
02 buy 1 1.22580 =+200
07 sell 1 1.22565 =-350
06 sell 1 1.22585 =-150
(06->02)=(-150)+(+200)=+50
(07->01)=(-350)+(+100)=-250
plus still open positions:
03 buy 1 1.22630 =-300
05 buy 1 1.22620 =-200
04 buy 1 1.22610 =-100
acc=1800; Equity= 1200; float.profit=-600
acc=acc+(+50)+(-250)=2000+50-250=1800 (acc=1800;netting=-200)

Although the Equity is same, the BIG DIFFERENCE after pressing "Order maintenance" button is: my account at this stage is 1800$(not 1200$) and I can decide how to deal with the open positions afterwards. It should be nice to have a possibility to choose the sequence of closing the trades. I use mostly MT5_hedge mode, but I like your panel very much and often check this thread for mt5 version or a script.
Thanks again for sharing your work.
  • #57
  • Jan 16, 2018 12:57am Jan 16, 2018 12:57am
If anyone is reading this..

Has anyone been using this awesome panel for live, manual trading with good results?
  • #58
  • Jan 16, 2018 1:40am Jan 16, 2018 1:40am
Quoting carddard
{quote} I think what MoneyZilla said has merits. When used properly, this tool is invaluable. The question is how many of us would actually know HOW to use it? Nicholisen, it's very generous of you to share this with the wider community. I think most people have no idea how useful this is. For the last few months, I have been working on something similar by incorporating same concepts into a fully automatic EA. Run it on a low risk profile and use this on multiple pairs and 40-60% per annum is not a problem at all. IF you know what you are doing....
Apart from using hedging to freeze profits, I have yet to see a hedging strategy that works long term. Care to describe or point me where I can find one that successfully employs hedging....long term is 3+yrs for me.

Frankly, Hedging to freeze losses just makes my head spin. I do hedge but not as can intension but as an outcome of following trends on mtf across multipairs but never as a risk management tool. Maybe i am wrong about this. I just like to keep things simple for my tiny brain to handle :-)

Edit: my head spins mainly because of the reason I described in a post earlier in this thread about marjin inflation and deflation that one has to take into account.
Staying in my lane...
  • #59
  • Jan 16, 2018 4:15am Jan 16, 2018 4:15am
Quoting VEEFX
{quote} Apart from using hedging to freeze profits, I have yet to see a hedging strategy that works long term. Care to describe or point me where I can find one that successfully employs hedging....long term is 3+yrs for me. Frankly, Hedging to freeze losses just makes my head spin. I do hedge but not as can intension but as an outcome of following trends on mtf across multipairs but never as a risk management tool. Maybe i am wrong about this. I just like to keep things simple for my tiny brain to handle :-) Edit: my head spins mainly because of...
Please don't take my word for it, try it for yourself.
I am but a practitioner of this intricate way of trading.
I think the best person to point you in the right direction would be Moneyzilla - but he is as cryptic as can be for the most part.
I have been using this strategy for a couple of months now, over 6 currency pairs including gold over just a $5k base. My aim is to average around 10% per month but realistically, I'll be happy with 5%.

My believe is that Moneyzilla is way more ahead of any one of us in terms of utilizing this strategy.

Thoughts, Moneyzilla?
  • #60
  • Jan 16, 2018 5:29am Jan 16, 2018 5:29am
Quoting carddard
{quote} Please don't take my word for it, try it for yourself. I am but a practitioner of this intricate way of trading. I think the best person to point you in the right direction would be Moneyzilla - but he is as cryptic as can be for the most part. I have been using this strategy for a couple of months now, over 6 currency pairs including gold over just a $5k base. My aim is to average around 10% per month but realistically, I'll be happy with 5%. My believe is that Moneyzilla is way more ahead of any one of us in terms of utilizing this strategy....
hedging is pure math, 100% possible to recalculate in better way.
if you dont be invested over rollover time it can be done of course, if its over rollover time its an way to have increased cost for no real advantage.

i reality , hedging (against close a trade and reopen later) is nothing more then like trading with a more expansive broker against a cheaper broker (if not all is closed before rollover).

because its so easy to calculated this with math, near noone is using hedging without some beginners. and really, near noone! i have not seen only one example of a trader who used hedging any more after i caclulated him what his win would be if he would not hedge. many dont want think about it, dont like math, are fascinating with hedging effect, dont see lost money by this, like how easy it is against learning doing closing and reopen,.... but dont see at what cost they do it.

and like always: hedging dont say you cant win, only say you win less (when done over rollover time) or in best case at maximum same like "normal" net trading.

hedging is not without a reason in learning basics step by step a chapter in math, what show you what you can avoid for not having useless costs.
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