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How to properly use indicators

  • #61
  • Nov 2, 2017 4:56pm Nov 2, 2017 4:56pm
Quoting MaxenshteinD
But when you buy low, arent you counter trend trading ? When if you buy high, you trading with the trend. Because noone knows how high a price can go.
Not really. You are positioning yourself. The only trend that really matters is that price goes up and price goes down. Obviously you need to use some logic. Don't invest in something in which its demand will likely go down or become obsolete.
  • #62
  • Nov 3, 2017 4:05am Nov 3, 2017 4:05am
Quoting MaxenshteinD
But when you buy low, arent you counter trend trading ? When if you buy high, you trading with the trend. Because noone knows how high a price can go.
Buying low/selling high not necessarily means going counter trend. It's a relative definition. For example, take a look at the picture - we could also say that prices in white circles are low in comparison with previous ones. So you can buy low (sell high) and still go with a trend.
Of course, trend itself is a relative and subjective thing. We can call a 1 pip move a trend too, so, in my opinion, in this case the word "movement" would be more appropriate. Then I agree that when we buy low, we are going against current movement.
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Let's go with the flow
  • #63
  • Nov 3, 2017 6:02am Nov 3, 2017 6:02am
Quoting artem_t
{quote} Buying low/selling high not necessarily means going counter trend. It's a relative definition. For example, take a look at the picture - we could also say that prices in white circles are low in comparison with previous ones. So you can buy low (sell high) and still go with a trend. Of course, trend itself is a relative and subjective thing. We can call a 1 pip move a trend too, so, in my opinion, in this case the word "movement" would be more appropriate. Then I agree that when we buy low, we are going against current movement. {image}
I agree. However, you show a very strong trend. In reality you'll have less opportunities/more losses ...
  • #64
  • Edited 6:52am Nov 3, 2017 6:29am | Edited 6:52am
Quoting AntiCre
{quote} I agree. However, you show a very strong trend. In reality you'll have less opportunities/more losses ...
Here you go - less "strong" trend

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The problem is that all of these things (trend, strong/weak, etc.) are very subjective. I took both examples from 1m TF. For one trader it's not a trends at all, while for another it's a very strong trends. If we would choose another MAs it wouldn't be a bullish trends, but just a pullbacks on a bearish trend.

But that doesn't contradict with the only point I wanted to show: it is possible to buy low/sell high in trend trading.

P.S. And final example just to show once again that buying low/selling high is a very relative terms. In this bearish movement a trader could enter in yellow circles and we could say that he is selling low while we could consider white circles zones as 'selling high' opportunities. Of course, if we zoom in these candles to ticks we could find other pullbacks as well.

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Let's go with the flow
  • #65
  • Nov 3, 2017 6:53am Nov 3, 2017 6:53am
Subs. Interesting discussion. Thanks and
Regards
  • #66
  • Nov 3, 2017 10:03am Nov 3, 2017 10:03am
Quoting artem_t
{quote} Buying low/selling high not necessarily means going counter trend. It's a relative definition. For example, take a look at the picture - we could also say that prices in white circles are low in comparison with previous ones. So you can buy low (sell high) and still go with a trend. Of course, trend itself is a relative and subjective thing. We can call a 1 pip move a trend too, so, in my opinion, in this case the word "movement" would be more appropriate. Then I agree that when we buy low, we are going against current movement. {image}
Very original and interesting use of the short term blue moving average you have there. I never saw it before, but I see now that in a uptrend (supported by the longer term m.a.), the price below the short term moving average is "oversold".

The activity of the price with the shorter and longer m.a. at the same time actually reminds me of CP's example of a 1)mean reversion and 2)mean aversion strategies.
The truth is hidden from you
  • #67
  • Nov 3, 2017 2:13pm Nov 3, 2017 2:13pm
Quoting MoneyZilla
{quote} we are all noobs here. a noob with s class does not sound bad to me. a noob with a rolls, sounds even better, i think... {quote} hmmm. you are looking at the wrong place. try to research how to flip sides more efficiently? my experience is the exit plan is not at all dependent on the strategy traded. it is an universal solution. how much one will profit, depends on the strategy traded (i use custom indicators for each strategy), however, the exit plan has nothing to do with the strategy traded. an exit plan is just a logical behaviour...
Hi, MoneyZilla.
Does Your exit plan works in all imaginable situations?
I tried to create that kind of plan. I don't do other analysis(because I can't get better than 50:50 win%), only depending on money management. And I got trouble in that market condition:
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It's <1% probability to get, but sooner or later you'll get it. How you deal with that?
  • #68
  • Edited 4:22pm Nov 3, 2017 3:32pm | Edited 4:22pm
Quoting IenDzi
{quote} Hi, MoneyZilla. Does Your exit plan works in all imaginable situations? I tried to create that kind of plan. I don't do other analysis(because I can't get better than 50:50 win%), only depending on money management. And I got trouble in that market condition:{image} It's <1% probability to get, but sooner or later you'll get it. How you deal with that?
IenDzi, this example is probably the hardest to trade for me. If from top to bottom there are like 40-50 pips on the last zigzag, that is close to impossible. I only try to survive in such situations. Flipping sides. No multipliers in use.

If there are like 80-90 pips on the biggest/last line, or higher, then, depending on the range situation, this will be a nice catch for me... In this situation, i know there is a 120-130 pips range and bet on any of the far ends. Bets go well. When they do not, I flip sides and go with the flow.

In the 40-50 pips scenario - i am helpless. Just a survivor. Waiting for the better times to come.

All my successful strategies have 30 pips or higher as a minimum flipping value. Everything below can bring great profits, but in choppy times I lose it all. Everything below 30 pips in pure madness for me. Those who can trade with 10-30 pips flips or SLs are simply magicians...

EDIT 1: I have found an example from 26-27 oct i did trade on a demo. I am managing 2 dedicated servers with 22 terminals on each server and 19 vpses with 8 terminals on a vps. Most are demos, of course. Better play safe than sorry. Live goes on cent accounts only, for now.

This is a new strategy. Every new strategy passes two months on a demo, before being approved. It is like a week old. It handles times as described by you. Pretty well.

First image is with snapshots of that P/L every 240 mins. The last big candle screwed up my P/L. Chop it at 1/2. From around $77 to just $36 net. 25 pips slippage there was. Some spike...
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The second image is a back test I ran earlier today. Was looking for improvements. I only backtest my custome indicators. To gather data. My exit plan does not need any backtests, as backtests are pure piece of shit. However, all my indicators are usually based only on the bid price and they can be backtested with very high accuracy.

The flips here are pretty close. Like 10 pips or even below. Very cool jump over...
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EDIT 2: Here is a 3 days old demo. More like 75 hours or so. Very conservative approach. Takes more flips. Profits are smaller. DD can be higher. Gold has been in the worst choppy times during the last two months, since 20-24 aug. My range indicator was screaming. Trust me. This is very hard time to trade. Most other strategies took some DD. Some little, most not so little. That one is a trend strategy. And it made profits, instead...
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Maadik Hugiis. IQ 69.
  • #69
  • Nov 3, 2017 9:05pm Nov 3, 2017 9:05pm
Quoting MoneyZilla
{quote} IenDzi, this example is probably the hardest to trade for me. If from top to bottom there are like 40-50 pips on the last zigzag, that is close to impossible. I only try to survive in such situations. Flipping sides. No multipliers in use. If there are like 80-90 pips on the biggest/last line, or higher, then, depending on the range situation, this will be a nice catch for me... In this situation, i know there is a 120-130 pips range and bet on any of the far ends. Bets go well. When they do not, I flip sides and go with the flow. In the...
My God, you are a machine yourself!! I have a hard enough time dealing with 2 VPS's with 4 terminals on each! More than amazing is all I can say! My deepest respect - particularly when taking into account that IQ? Always appreciate all the crumbs you drop, though many are beyond me but they do keep my wheels spinning and for that I am grateful. Thx for all the input.... I may be out of sight but always following along with the hope of gathering useful info.
  • #70
  • Nov 3, 2017 10:19pm Nov 3, 2017 10:19pm
There is nothing an indicator can tell you that you can't see in the candles.... If your not profitable... Dump the indicators... dump the trend lines and focus on price action, market structure.. Time of day movements most likely to happen.
The only system that will work is one designed by and for yourself.
  • #71
  • Nov 3, 2017 10:22pm Nov 3, 2017 10:22pm
Quoting bloodpoodle
There is nothing an indicator can tell you that you can't see in the candles.... If your not profitable... Dump the indicators... dump the trend lines and focus on price action, market structure.. Time of day movements most likely to happen.
For the most part I'm with you, however there are a few useful things that are not necessarily seen in candles - a good example is divergence.
  • #72
  • Nov 3, 2017 10:51pm Nov 3, 2017 10:51pm
Quoting VEEFX
{quote} Could you please define what a FLIP is? Is it a 1) close and reverse 2) a hedge ?
1, but for catching the final destination i simultaneously open trades in both directions and then flip. one of the sides is heavier. at the final move, both sides transform into just one...
Maadik Hugiis. IQ 69.
  • #73
  • Edited 11:33pm Nov 3, 2017 11:23pm | Edited 11:33pm
Quoting Telac
{quote} ...particularly when taking into account that IQ?
ha-ha-ha! IQ is real. People do not get the difference of being smart and being intelligent. The IQ tests are NOT measuring intelligence. People are confused, as usual. Scientists does not make a difference from the crowds. They are confused as much as confused is anyone alse and they call it an intelligence measuring test? LOL! This thing measures how much is your knowledge, based on the educationone one has...so, my IQ is 75. This is how much i made on their tests, honestly.

So, according to the scientists which made the IQ test I ran, I am not smart, neither intelligent...

Quote
...but always following along with the hope of gathering useful info.
I try to stimulate most of you to use your brains. I spend like 16 hrs each day thinking and then acting, then rethinking it, acting again, ext. It is like an endless process.

Chart reading is a pretty simple thing. It is a result of many failures. Can describe it in a single page document. But then it would not be your own achievement, would it?

Most here do not appreciate my endeavors to stimulate your brains to chase your own discoveries. They think I am thinking highly about myself?!? Hello? While this is just how I teach. You have to get there on your own feet. I will not do it for you...

Everyone has to pass over or walked over this, before getting to the chart reading. RondaRousy posted it. I like that guy. Always making funny posts, most get insulted from. A thing I cannot understand. My IQ forces me to laugh loud and enjoy almost everything he says. Enjoy the video!

Inserted Video


EDIT: The video shows some men entertainment activities. I have noticed men think very highly about themselves. Being smarter than women. Really? I see it exactly the other way around. Around 75% from the prisoners are men...

So, take a look what the more intelling part of the humanity is trying to achieve.

Watching this video, I could not take a breath, at some moments of it... It is just another example of the intellectual supremacy of men over women. It takes an IQ of 75 to understand that. Higher IQ values are a problem and cannot reach out to such conclusions...
Maadik Hugiis. IQ 69.
  • #74
  • Nov 4, 2017 12:48am Nov 4, 2017 12:48am
Quoting MoneyZilla
{quote} ha-ha-ha! IQ is real. People do not get the difference of being smart and being intelligent. The IQ tests are NOT measuring intelligence. People are confused, as usual. Scientists does not make a difference from the crowds. They are confused as much as confused is anyone alse and they call it an intelligence measuring test? LOL! This thing measures how much is your knowledge, based on the educationone one has...so, my IQ is 75. This is how much i made on their tests, honestly. So, according to the scientists which made...
I totally hear you on the IQ thing, my comments were kind of tong in cheek. I went through the whole IQ thing 10 or so years back and went round in circles with a "so called" educator on the merits, or in my view, non- merits of such tests. Your assessment is beautiful!
Regarding charts - ya, they look pretty simple historically but in real time.....haha, not so much at least for me. History does repeat itself but the variations are the part that too easily throw me off track. That said I assume it all goes into the processing pot and makes future identification easier.
Keep on doing what you do; much appreciate the way you interact here!
  • #75
  • Nov 4, 2017 3:05am Nov 4, 2017 3:05am
Quoting Telac
{quote} Regarding charts - ya, they look pretty simple historically but in real time.....haha, not so much at least for me. History does repeat itself but the variations are the part that too easily throw me off track. That said I assume it all goes into the processing pot and makes future identification easier.
Here is a Saturday gift from me. To you. Live chart reading is all about edges.
Maadik Hugiis. IQ 69.
  • #76
  • Edited 3:39am Nov 4, 2017 3:20am | Edited 3:39am
Quoting MoneyZilla
{quote} 1, but for catching the final destination i simultaneously open trades in both directions and then flip. one of the sides is heavier. at the final move, both sides transform into just one...
Is that scenario the way you always trade? Or do you just pick one direction during other market conditions? And is Mingary's "Monty Hall Strategy" related to your style of trading? Quite interesting ...
  • #77
  • Nov 4, 2017 5:51am Nov 4, 2017 5:51am
Quoting AntiCre
{quote} Is that scenario the way you always trade? Or do you just pick one direction during other market conditions? And is Mingary's "Monty Hall Strategy" related to your style of trading? Quite interesting ...
I have no idea what Monty Hall Strategy is. Saw some martingale used in there.

Not using any multipliers. I average everything. When there is a trade that flipped 10 times on 30 pips min distance, with 0.01 lot each flip taken, the net PL will be like -$35 or so. This trade will require at least 400 pips on the vertical, just to generate $5 net profit. This is highly unlikely or 2-3-4 months of waiting is required. The swap will kill the profit and now even more pips will be required.

About 20% of all trades have no or little flips. I combine the big losers with the fresh trades. Average their PLs into just one. Sniff for the range moment to come. Multiple rounds at the far edges. 2-3-4 rounds wipe out the whole loss for just 2-3-4 days, instead of months. More fresh trades come in. Average PL per trade is reached. All ends in about 2 rounds, usually. The first round wipes out the DD, the second generates the profit. When there is a trend instead, I wait, whatever pips given are all welcomed. Range comes and do it again.

Sometimes I do miss the far edge of the range. Like this week on gold. Wed-Fri. I screwed it all up and DD appeared. If did not miss it, I would have had 100% far end entry sucess and would have finished the week at $50k UScents won. Working hard on that at the moment.

Trading in range is not always very successful as it originally sounds. But every week I do like at least 2 rounds and close like $25k UScents on average. This week I closed $20k UScents and now in -$13k UScents into a DD, which I do not like...
Maadik Hugiis. IQ 69.
  • #78
  • Edited 4:50pm Nov 4, 2017 8:14am | Edited 4:50pm
Quoting MoneyZilla
{quote} ha-ha-ha! IQ is real. People do not get the difference of being smart and being intelligent. The IQ tests are NOT measuring intelligence. People are confused, as usual. Scientists does not make a difference from the crowds. They are confused as much as confused is anyone alse and they call it an intelligence measuring test? LOL! This thing measures how much is your knowledge, based on the educationone one has...so, my IQ is 75. This is how much i made on their tests, honestly. So, according to the scientists which made...
I personally believe the IQ test you've taken is illegitimate, according to the test your border line mentally retarded.
Btw yes an IQ test is a measure of intelligence, IQ stands for "intelligence quotient", i also understand what your trying to say because what is intelligence other than stored knowledge and the ability to use that knowledge to understand or solve a problem. You clearly do not have an iq of 75, your sentences are way to coherent.
When it comes to men having "superior intelligence" this is extremely debatable, as intelligence can very much be a reflection of your surroundings. In laments terms, grow up and learn from idiots and you become an idiot whether your male or female.
I definitely wouldn't take that IQ test seriously. (unless it was a Mensa test)
  • #79
  • Nov 4, 2017 11:26am Nov 4, 2017 11:26am
Quoting PIPot
{quote} Thats the misconception about indicators. Its is not made to give you a positive pip, it was made to calculate/ simplify data faster. You are then using it worng
If i may add to this aswell. (i will delete if moderator does not consider it appropriate).

- It visually simplifies and quantifies specific variables from price.
- It produces both good and bad signals.
- Signals are mechanical.

There is a very obvious reason as to why they produce good and bad signals, and that comes down to market and price.
Is price linear? NO! So how do you expect mechanical indicator signals to work when price is not linear?
Price does not function like this, leading back to 50/50 or worse.
  • #80
  • Edited 1:37pm Nov 4, 2017 1:04pm | Edited 1:37pm
Does anybody have experience with using lag and non lag indicators? Like lag or non lag MA, MACD, or....
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