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  • #101
  • Sep 28, 2017 11:36pm Sep 28, 2017 11:36pm
Investor and trader perspectives and priorities are different and therefore irreconcilable.
OP proposal is ludicrous and is in real danger of violating ML Acts hence it is best ignore.
V concerns are very pointed and pertinent showing good due diligence vetting process. Kudos to him.

Cheers
GS
  • #102
  • Edited 7:58am Sep 29, 2017 5:07am | Edited 7:58am
Quoting VEEFX
{quote} I would agree with dukas as well if he means trade small position size. It's a no brainer that trading small with lower leverage results in reduce risk and reduced max drawdown. Perhaps i am the only fool asking about this so lets try this one more time. I am only concerned with max drawdown of floating equity. Not realized trades, not the balance curve. My realized drawdown (from trades closures as in PNL) is under 5%. No big deal. I can limit to even 1% if i chose to BUT as a position trader, I have over 100 trades floating in profit for...
"How do you control drawdown on your floating trades"

Only with the trade size of course ! there is no other way.
Small exposure relative to account size = small DD
But small exposure = small profit with small risk
So how does the bright-eyes-and-bushy-tail aspiring forex millionaire can possibly get bigger profits with smaller risks ?

Attached Image
  • #103
  • Sep 29, 2017 5:38am Sep 29, 2017 5:38am
Quoting Don96
im sorry but anyone who knows anything knows Demo shows nothing also 2 trades per time... nothing of relevance right there i smell something fishy, how much are these guys offering?
These replies as referenced above are obviously the type of Traders you are not seeking to employ simnz - shame that FF has to allow these types of traders who feel insecure when such an opportunity presents itself. Thank you kindly for such an interesting opportunity, i feel personally compelled to write to you, however ticking all the box's is simple but i usually trade 3 positions each trade on two pairs most trades endeavour to play on a 48 hours timescale with 12 hours overshoot depending on the time of the month and news within that trading period. Again thank you for such an aspiring idea and i hope that traders such as the one above are taken as an example of the ones you really need to stay clear from and pls do not be put off from achieving what is in reality a simple endeavour of 400 pips monthly .. as for WTF opinions i hope that being such a mature trader (some are not around here) you will take this reply as encouragement that Yes there are many traders around here who can rise to your challenge and can match the criteria it is your seeking and subject to the correct package on offer can even create more pips ..
  • #104
  • Sep 29, 2017 5:44am Sep 29, 2017 5:44am
Quoting dean1star
{quote} These replies as referenced above are obviously the type of Traders you are not seeking to employ simnz - shame that FF has to allow these types of traders who feel insecure when such an opportunities presents itsself - Thank you kindly for such an interesting opportunity, i feel personally compelled to write to you , however ticking all the box's is simple but i usually trade 3 positions each trade on two pairs most trades endeavour to play on a 48 hours timescale with 12 hours overshoot...
LOL

demo... i hope you dont still trade on that...

2 trades open max per time... not saying this isn't possible to achieve success... but if one has a good success rate of 1000 pips a month and yet they trade 5 times at one single time... well there goes a massive opportunity for those investors...

looks like you might be in the same category as the guy you are posting to... or you are working with him. either way, i hope you get your investment, maybe it will be a demo 50k investment who knows, come back and let us know if you succeed

PS: not sure how it creates insecurity... its weeding out some sort of dodge podge deal... as the rest of the people here have found out...
  • #105
  • Sep 29, 2017 6:35am Sep 29, 2017 6:35am
Forex Trading is quite risky and we need to have lots and lots of knowledge and experience and skills to become successful in the Forex Trading. You need to have good amount of practice.
  • #106
  • Edited 7:21am Sep 29, 2017 6:52am | Edited 7:21am
Quoting GodfatherSam
Forex Trading is quite risky and we need to have lots and lots of knowledge and experience and skills to become successful in the Forex Trading. You need to have good amount of practice.
It is but it is possible on many levels, the problem one has with the question here about trading for other people, is infact multi facitated, cross boarders to not countries but continents, as a Producer within high end Media Projects i can tell you working across these borders is never as simple as it seems, and always many questions, proof of funds is the starting point, proof of genuine funds that is, and a host of other de facto Carnies, but that said as he who cries wolf should begin with searching for chickens first before the wolf finds em as they say. Honestly the credentials of such a proposal have to be at such a level that it compells one to wonder infact believe that why would such a consortium from overseas look to this place, well the key here is MIDDLE MAN as made and stated clearly at the beginning, middle men take a cut, they adjust formulas of working ideas, the idea maybe some people who the guy knows wish to make some money with their money and the middle man suggests the idea of Forex but generally the golden rule is that they take their share usually and to be honest middle men are not the most respected of people unless they appease the people working on their behalf with an over expectation of what they deserve for their services, so let the story unfold and the truth speak for itself shall we.

BTW 20 percent nett on offer to an experienced trader is not enough when you compare the work involved and the money they already make for themselves and the value of the skill set they already posess - i am not interested in the offer just to say but perhaps it might help others around here if proven genuine that is however for 20 percent net you can see that the Middle man is taking 10 percent on top of that so already its a no no proposition unless one really needs this kinda of deal .. which i dont just to say as i make alot more pips than 400 a month and would not share my system to anyone .. for self respect and karma.
  • #107
  • Sep 29, 2017 11:33am Sep 29, 2017 11:33am
Quoting Mingary
{quote} "How do you control drawdown on your floating trades" Only with the trade size of course ! there is no other way. Small exposure relative to account size = small DD But small exposure = small profit with small risk So how does the bright-eyes-and-bushy-tail aspiring forex millionaire can possibly get bigger profits with smaller risks ? {image}
I agree but again it's a text book response that I already know. I trade position size greater of 0.01 minilot or 0.10% - 0.25% risk per trade across 28 pairs. no martingale, no adding to losers, no letting losers run, most if not all are in BE+pips with margin level at approx 250-300% on a 50:1 leverage. How do position managers and hedge funds protect their floating equity on weekends or during volatile markets when risk goes up exponentially leaving us at the mercy of liquidity. Close all is the only option I could find... which means long term position trading is dead for spot fx.
Staying in my lane...
  • #108
  • Sep 29, 2017 11:33am Sep 29, 2017 11:33am
Posting this one more time for another 24 hours... hoping Bicarus could return with a fancy idea :-)

Quoting Bicarus
i will answer all questions in 1 post. @dukas_trader: it is discrete managed account model (DMA) not managed fund wherein all client's funds are amalgamated. thus commission/swap paid/received is via clients account to clearing house, not me. i do not have increased spread/commission relationship with broker. all i have is a backend arrangement with the clearing house which netts p&l at end of month. debiting from clients account management fee and crediting it to me if dued based on high water mark. as stated it is a discrete managed account model...

Thanks Bicarus for your response. I now understand but still very impressed in your ability to limit drawdown. To dissect a litter further and to compare it with my experience...

"5-7% drawdown is max allowed risk for reversal.".... The only way to limit drawdowns imo is to trade reversals i.e. bounce off SR or whatever instead of breakouts or trend following trading style. risk is low and it is easy to measure success or failure on razor sharpness on entry...meaning the focus becomes on entries and not exits to limit drawdowns. It's more work, effort and screentime... the necessary evil cmopared to my core trading style of trend following where entries are not that important and exits are. The downside being bigger drawdown but greater profit potential. My solution if to play bounce/countertrend in intraday for short term profits and accommodate drawdowns in long term position trading.... easier said than done. My winrate is in the 70+ for both so really I could live either way, ignore drawdown and still be profitable but risk to capital is now a higher priority for me as I get older and my capital grows bigger.

"once it pops, position will be covered via other instruments at my disposal" - the other instruments are spot FX or from other non-FX markets with correlation in play to introduce shock absorbers via netting? I realize this is your holy grail so appreciate sharing whatever you can to guide me in the right direction. I have just recently starting exploring FX options so still long ways to go.

"basically means for that month, there will be no new high water mark." - this means you are charging performance fee on a monthly basis if I am not mistaken. High watermark is based on your floating equity or realized PnL i.e. equity curve or balance curve in regards to trade explorer ? I think no knowledgeable investor would agree on realized PnL so it has to be based on equity curve

Care to share how you manage risk if you carry positions over the weekend? Sorry, too many questions to ask a pro :-(
Staying in my lane...
  • #109
  • Edited 12:06pm Sep 29, 2017 11:44am | Edited 12:06pm
Quoting VEEFX
{quote} I agree but again it's a text book response that I already know. I trade position size greater of 0.01 minilot or 0.10% - 0.25% risk per trade across 28 pairs. no martingale, no adding to losers, no letting losers run, most if not all are in BE+pips with margin level at approx 250-300% on a 50:1 leverage. How do position managers and hedge funds protect their floating equity on weekends or during volatile markets when risk goes up exponentially leaving us at the mercy of liquidity. Close all is the only option I could find... which means...
when i have long time positions i manage it with options as SL possibilty often, cheaper then real SL very often. but much more work
  • #110
  • Sep 29, 2017 12:24pm Sep 29, 2017 12:24pm
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} when i have long time positions i manage it with options as SL possibilty often, cheaper then real SL very often. but much more work
I think so too. Options is the only meaningful way to hedge weekend exposure imo but painful to manage.
Staying in my lane...
  • #111
  • Sep 29, 2017 2:20pm Sep 29, 2017 2:20pm
Quoting VEEFX
{quote} I think so too. Options is the only meaningful way to hedge weekend exposure imo but painful to manage.
option provide good way to manage extreme loss - but if you try to use them for nearby stop losses, the cost will be too high (option premium will be high) plus options are very in transparent so you end up paying a hefty spread (professionally options are quoted in implied vol terms and 1-2 implied vol is charged for spread). Also as a retail trader, your ability to trade options is limited.

Pros usually leave their position open on most weekends (with stops communicated to desks in the other region - usually pro firms will have offices in asia,ldn and nyk to cover all timezones. On major event weekend (like brexit), they will significantly reduce their positions and be in office when market opens on sunday
Think : Trade : Live Life
  • #112
  • Sep 29, 2017 4:45pm Sep 29, 2017 4:45pm
Quoting stt
{quote} option provide good way to manage extreme loss - but if you try to use them for nearby stop losses, the cost will be too high (option premium will be high) plus options are very in transparent so you end up paying a hefty spread (professionally options are quoted in implied vol terms and 1-2 implied vol is charged for spread). Also as a retail trader, your ability to trade options is limited. Pros usually leave their position open on most weekends (with stops communicated to desks in the other region - usually pro firms will have offices...
Thanks stt for further insights. Appreciate it. You are spot on in regards to the associated costs involved for downside protection.
Staying in my lane...
  • #113
  • Sep 29, 2017 5:43pm Sep 29, 2017 5:43pm
Quoting VEEFX
{quote} Thanks stt for further insights. Appreciate it. You are spot on in regards to the associated costs involved for downside protection.
you pay for 100% protected but get much more in win then against used normal SL if you do it with correct trading system, because you can trade much higher volume because you has some smaller SL (ofcourse not for shortterm trades intraday, only some trades for at least day or best 1-3 weeks.

but depends on price of SL of trading system and volatility of the traded market, to have correct decision whats better to use.
  • #114
  • Edited Sep 30, 2017 1:07am Sep 29, 2017 11:54pm | Edited Sep 30, 2017 1:07am
Quoting VEEFX
Perhaps it is time to turn this thread around and ignore all the capital provider, 3-month demo trading and other crappy requirements mentioned in the first post. If you are a relatively successful, knowledgeable but inconsistent trader (or just tired of trading!) but HAVE significant capital to invest, what criteria would you define for other traders to 'safely' trade your own money? Perhaps, share the RM/MM portion of your own trading plan in a broader sense and gear this thread towards a more structured and meaningful discussion. Examples: Ignore...
dukas_trader, veefx, stt, dean1star, mingary,

The discussions have taken a pleasant turn and the spotlight is on risk managment.

It is inspiring. The reality is online trading has pushed capitalism towards becoming casino capitalism.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/social-s...ino-capitalism

"Now the focus is not on what an asset will produce rather on what the next fellow will pay for it"
"Nothing sedates rationality like large doses of effortless money"
"They are dancing in a room in which the clocks have no hands"

These observations are from Warren Buffet's letter to shareholders in 2000. I am not sure whether in 2017 he too enjoys dancing in the same room.

Now we have a clearly established pattern or the biz model of Player Pays the Winner. Very similar to Poker.

1. Operator (money maker or liquidity provider) with deep pockets
2. Middle persons like Educators, Signal Providers, Algo Programmers, brokers, etc.etc.
3. Players (investors or traders or gamblers)

Invariably, it is Players who pay both 1 and 2 market participants.

An operator has to be both 1 and 3 to keep the market busy. A Small trader has to follow that business model if he/she does not want to fall victim to operators of frauds and phony instruments like binary options.

I grew from an one-man tiny retailer to retire as owner of 15-people B2B operation in a period of 45 years.

When starting, I made a feasibility report/business plan based on the boot-strapping capital (margin money) I can raise, the possibility of getting supplier credit (leverage) , how to source competitive suppliers (low spreads, low slippage, low commissions) what were good seasons to sell, (timing to trade vigorously) how to handle low seasons, (timing to trade less or take holiday) how to manage stock turnover (money management), what kind of markups (risk/rewards) should I plan so that I can handle temporary losses (drawdown) and still remain in surplus (equity growth).

Rightly, the major focus for self-directed trader has to be on Money Management.

1. Should we work backwards by setting a profit goal and then see whether we have the skills and the financial resources to achieve it.

2. Should we work forward by assessing our financial resources and skills without having any profit target and keep improvising money management techniques.

3. Should we revise in light of what we find as a result of No 1 exercise and go ahead?

These are uppermost in my mind . I hope if dukas_trader, veefx, stt, dean1star, mingary, bicarus and others can contribute their money management ideas.

Thank you.
Practice makes a person perfect
  • #115
  • Sep 30, 2017 1:05pm Sep 30, 2017 1:05pm
Quoting simnz
{quote} dukas_trader, veefx, stt, dean1star, mingary, The discussions have taken a pleasant turn and the spotlight is on risk managment. It is inspiring. The reality is online trading has pushed capitalism towards becoming casino capitalism. http://www.encyclopedia.com/social-s...ino-capitalism "Now the focus is not on what an asset will produce rather on what the next fellow will pay for it" "Nothing sedates rationality like large doses of effortless money" "They are dancing in a room in...
IS an indepth reply warranted or is Simplicty the key here.
For me the latter part of this well thought out overview matches with the idea of the Should's.

1. Should we work backwards by setting a profit goal and then see whether we have the skills and the financial resources to achieve it.

No not to work backwards. A Trader who has learnt his craft will already have a goal in mind. it is what he has learnt which establishes this fact and the amount set will prove his self worth and success rate on a regular basis which can be proven via live trading over a set period of agreed time. Being at a point of setting Profit goals requires forward observation primarily we can however look backwards to understand in finer detail how we are best going to move forwards.


2. Should we work forward by assessing our financial resources and skills without having any profit target and keep improvising money management techniques.

Ones resources are not created via a forward assessment. They should be well established as Financial resources from the beginning and are a known fact prior to any form of commitment, be it in the form of words, via contract even and most definitely to create the motion of a trade. Assessing a skill totally an important element, something which needs to be addressed at the beginning of any commitment which then allows for further forward assessment. Profit Target is known before each trade how simple does it get. Now the Techniques surrounding Money Management this will always be an ongoing commitment created through the understanding of other peoples requirements, usually in the form of knowing what ones client expects and is offering in return to the Team involved as they are working on his behalf, be it directly or indirectly.


3. Should we revise in light of what we find as a result of No 1 exercise and go ahead?

Does one need to move forward soley on the basis of a revision. Surely if the answer needs to be revised then this raises a question all of its own if we revise this question and the outcome is positive then for sure its a plus situation, however from the perspective of a Trader the answer to question 1 should already be known in advance of asking - which in turn reflects the knowledge the individual Trader has mastered in his career to date.

In General the changing of the Marketplace although important is more of a logical evolution, necessary in today's world of commerce. Traders take this notion on board daily as they trade, always on the look out for new algo patterns and moves which are seen as being distinctive patterns to certain pairs, usually the majors and at certain times of the year.

Dean
  • #116
  • Sep 30, 2017 1:20pm Sep 30, 2017 1:20pm
Quoting VEEFX
{quote} My preference (as I have already said before) is #1: #1 Should we work by setting an acceptable 'range' for parameters by your capital providers that are related to MM, RM, Profit, Loss, drawdown, instruments, and other measurable paramters and then access whether we can find traders and risk controllers and money managers that have the proven skills to achieve them. Your approach needs to be TOP DOWN and not forward/backward. This is required to avoid players wasting their valuable time for 3 months and gain nothing out of this endeavor....
No trader has expressed interest in the programme. Those who need this kind of funding have to approach a few schools who charge US$1000 for each validation test and a few guys have paid up to $12000 to prove their eligibility to get funded account. Obviously there is a big gap between the expectations of the capital providers and those of traders.

I have turned spotlight on how to become a fx trader by using own capital and skills and how critical it is to master risk and money management.

Will some experienced traders guide small trader with a capital of $5000 on how to go about it?
Practice makes a person perfect
  • #117
  • Sep 30, 2017 8:46pm Sep 30, 2017 8:46pm
Quoting simnz
{quote} No trader has expressed interest in the programme. Those who need this kind of funding have to approach a few schools who charge US$1000 for each validation test and a few guys have paid up to $12000 to prove their eligibility to get funded account. Obviously there is a big gap between the expectations of the capital providers and those of traders. I have turned spotlight on how to become a fx trader by using own capital and skills and how critical it is to master risk and money management. Will some experienced traders guide small trader...
No traders has expressed interest in the program....since there is no program!!

You gave zero proof as there is or ever will be some capital down the road ( I really doubt).
Also you gave very vogue definitions even for the demo trading proposal as for why 1-2 pairs only, why pips only, etc.
Some silly ideas about trader + analysts + risk controller team....whereas all small trader, or not so small trader or smaller managed account traders and similar does this all in one!

For small trader, if profitable, others viable options exist to gain capital than to trade demo for month to an imaginary funding.
Yes, wrote prural, as there is least 3 different viable road.
All has only one prerequisite, the trader can show live track recorded ( not demo!) That he can handle his 5000$ profitable....

And finally, you haven't ever offered the slightest proof for your genuineness. Anyone can make same offer, by that won't make one genuine. On a public forum as this, an offer like this has no meaning, so, won't he surprised if there is no takers.
Instead of proof, your lines went rather in the direction that demo trading can teach a trader to be profitable ( questionable, but maybe), and your thread wasn't exactly starting out that you wanting to turn a spotlight how to be profitable, but starts out that you looking already profitable...confusing and controversial, to say.

Those who think you are just fishing around...and I think the same...probably right.
This thread not going anywhere where the original opening post were suggesting.
Can discuss money management, how to approach, etc, but that wasn't the topic to start with.
there is always, always another trade!!
  • #118
  • Edited 12:38am Oct 1, 2017 12:10am | Edited 12:38am
FF is a free trader community forum where people are expected to share their knowledge and experience for the benefit of its members.
FF has been used by some of the members to elicit directly or indirectly customers for a few commercial ventures of system selling, programming codes, etc.

When the moderator detects the commercial angle, the members are dubbed as Commercial Members. FF does not frown upon commercial activity. In fact a number of members use the forum resources to repackage as commercial products. What is frowned upon fraudulent activity like asking money for quick-rich schemes.

Smart commercial agenda designers use Freebie strategy to attract customers in future. Facebook and What's up are classic examples of such strategy.

It is not important for me to establish my credentials whoever I am or who are my capital providers because I am not offering any commercial proposal at this stage. When I do it, I will voluntarily transfer myself to Commercial section and openly promote Funded Account business.

For the present, the idea is to help traders with 1+ years experience go through a verification process which is demanded by any funded account provider. It will last for 3 months and the traders can choose to show their real or demo trading account to any provider of funded account they can source and carry on from there.
You can call it FREEBIE PLAN because no-one accepts selection of traders for a funded account until most of them have paid up to US$10,000 per person.
I am trying to duplicate their validation process, for which no trader has to pay any money nor open a real trading account.

My capital providers will come into picture only after 4 months.

Until that time what I am doing is:

Making FF forum and TE as a FREE training college for such traders who are underfunded and willing to give their time to get themselves tested on whatever criteria that may be set.

Majority of FF members are using this FREE forum to gain access to learning resources offered by generous traders and programmers. If they thought there is something secret, they would not be doing so. Experienced traders know more than 100,000 of MT4/MT5 indicators and EA have been coded and NO-ONE has found any holy grail (secret formula) until now.

It is for this section of FF members this thread is intended. I have no commercial agenda for the time being because nobody is being asked to pay any money for undergoing selection process.

When the selection process is finished, I will move the thread to commercial section. Where the selected traders will be directly put in touch with capital providers and both parties will be free to negotiate and enter into contracts.

Until that time:

Traders may treat it as an educational exercise of finding out what capital providers normally look for and whether it is worth their time to go through it. Again it is FREE because no-one is asking them to pay Examination (Validation Administration) Fee.

Unfortunately, this forum has attracted a few members who are looking for jobs or indulging in self-aggrandizement without realizing they are blocking a genuine
educational/training effort.

I will be forced to report such members to the moderator if they continue in their efforts to prevent other members of using TE IE as an educational tool.
If they can't contribute to an educational process, let them keep away from it.
Practice makes a person perfect
  • #119
  • Edited 12:39am Oct 1, 2017 12:16am | Edited 12:39am
Quoting VEEFX
{quote} Exactly. I tried to steer this thread in the right direction. Perhaps he has good intentions r may be just on a fishing expedition. Good luck to all those who agree to participate. I net there are folks around the world who have limited access to capital but tremendous amount of brain power. For me, i can walk into any bank and have access to $100K just by signing on the dotted line ...actually not even that. I have platimum card with check writing feature which offers 15 month interest free financing @ just 3% trabsaction fee. There is...
You are free to set up your own thread instead of playing a spoilsport.
Practice makes a person perfect
  • #120
  • Oct 1, 2017 12:24am Oct 1, 2017 12:24am
Quoting dean1star
{quote} IS an indepth reply warranted or is Simplicty the key here. For me the latter part of this well thought out overview matches with the idea of the Should's. 1. Should we work backwards by setting a profit goal and then see whether we have the skills and the financial resources to achieve it. No not to work backwards. A Trader who has learnt his craft will already have a goal in mind. it is what he has learnt which establishes this fact and the amount set will prove his self worth and success rate on a regular basis which can be proven via...
Thank you for posting valuable comments.
What do you think a small investor realistically can start trading with in terms of financial as well as skill resources? What period will normally be adequate to acquire those skills?
Practice makes a person perfect
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