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Nail small amount everyday?

  • #41
  • Sep 6, 2017 7:07pm Sep 6, 2017 7:07pm
Quoting profitfarmer
{quote} um, one moment you are advocate on a thread of trade SL on every trade, then you talk about one single trade to wipe out a month's profit? there is not much difference between making regular small profits, regular big profits, or regular any profits for that matter. all carry the possibility ( and the hard facts too) of a loss. just as well as making regular small profits can be wiped out by a large loss...regular large profits can be wiped out by a larger loss. makes sense, right? thus you only have to work on your money management...
Yes it's true loss is a loss regardless whether you've been making small profits or large profits before BUT if you have been making regular large profits, after being hit by a large loss, you have higher chance of ending up still in the green or at least break-even and when you have been making just smaller regular profits, when the same large loss hit, you have a smaller chance of still ending up in the green or break-even.

So that's why I say trading small is fine but you just have to keep in mind that your losses have to be controlled to be small as well to match your profit amount. Ideally you should try to win big, lose small but if you can't at least when you win small, lose small as well.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #42
  • Sep 6, 2017 7:12pm Sep 6, 2017 7:12pm
Quoting Ross88
guys do you think a lot size of 0.15 per £500 is big?
how big is SL ? you need to calc your lot base on SL (how many pips) and Risk percent % ? how much are you ready to lose in current trade.
there are a lot of calculator on web
  • #43
  • Sep 6, 2017 10:12pm Sep 6, 2017 10:12pm
Quoting Forexia
{quote} Yes it's true loss is a loss regardless whether you've been making small profits or large profits before BUT if you have been making regular large profits, after being hit by a large loss, you have higher chance of ending up still in the green or at least break-even and when you have been making just smaller regular profits, when the same large loss hit, you have a smaller chance of still ending up in the green or break-even. So that's why I say trading small is fine but you just have to keep in mind that your losses have to be controlled...
wrong wrong, sorry.
if your small profits the case, then the loss should be coming as small too...if talking about a big loss
else if large profits are the case, then also the loss have to be not large, but larger ( then the profits)...

if the size compare equally both profits and loss sizes, as they supposed too, then there is no difference in drawdown %age in the end, small or big was the profit in previous run.

when you ideally try to win big, either your losses will be big, bigger, or very big, or your win% will be so low, that it adds up to big losses

again, we all trade differently, and i for one not a believer that to make money one needs to chase high R:R home runs.

anyway, since OP is less than active here, really, i dont think need more comments on it from me.
only answered for the arguments sake.
there is always, always another trade!!
  • #44
  • Edited 11:59pm Sep 6, 2017 10:43pm | Edited 11:59pm
Quoting profitfarmer
{quote} wrong wrong, sorry. if your small profits the case, then the loss should be coming as small too...
Not if you set tight tp target and yet wider sl levels as many traders do. They tp as soon as they see some profit to try to lock them in before they disappear but when they are hit with a loss, they hold onto the loss thinking it might turn around and become a profitable trade later. So they end up accumulating $100, $200 profits maybe several times in a row and then get hit by a huge $10K loss that just wipes out all of their small profits before.

Quoting profitfarmer
{quote}if talking about a big loss else if large profits are the case, then also the loss have to be not large, but larger ( then the profits)...
That's EXACTLY what I have been saying. The size of loss needs to match the size of the profit. if you are only making small profit, then you need to set up tighter stop loss to make sure the loss are small too.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #45
  • Sep 7, 2017 10:47am Sep 7, 2017 10:47am
Quoting Forexia
{quote} That's EXACTLY what I have been saying. The size of loss needs to match the size of the profit. if you are only making small profit, then you need to set up tighter stop loss to make sure the loss are small too.
Tighter stop losses usually means triggered more often. Which then changes the system balance (whatever the system is consciously or unconsciously being executed), because winners has become less frequent and hence have be bigger in order to cover additional, compounded loss from (now) more frequent losses, which, in turn, become more difficult to obtain...

UNLESS one has proven method for longer periods and can fluidly adjust both side of equation. But in such a case this discussion would not take a place at all, which means...

For profitfarmer, it would be really good to understand EXACTLY what one tries to execute and how change of one detail affect the rest. Otherwise, discussion such as "tighter stop loss or not" really become academic discussion. Kind of looking at clouds and seeing things. And by "understanding exactly" I mean not talk, but action, analysis and conclusion. I have not seen any of those yet, which brings us back to clouds
  • #46
  • Sep 7, 2017 12:35pm Sep 7, 2017 12:35pm
Quoting jdieieh
{quote} Tighter stop losses usually means triggered more often. Which then changes the system balance (whatever the system is consciously or unconsciously being executed), because winners has become less frequent and hence have be bigger in order to cover additional, compounded loss from (now) more frequent losses, which, in turn, become more difficult to obtain... UNLESS one has proven method for longer periods and can fluidly adjust both side of equation. But in such a case this discussion would not take a place at all, which means... For...
i have a TE ( live) atttached, not sure how much of the trades visible though.
personally i dont care single individual SL orders, i care drawdown, working and realized, in comparison to equity...ie. hard equity SL!
of course that would be a whole different argument, and i dont want to get into it now, the TE should give a good picture about if there is much drawdown, toxic trades carried, or a consistent return is achievable with a normal rate of growth.
there is always, always another trade!!
  • #47
  • Sep 7, 2017 12:45pm Sep 7, 2017 12:45pm
Quoting jdieieh
{quote} Tighter stop losses usually means triggered more often. Which then changes the system balance (whatever the system is consciously or unconsciously being executed), because winners has become less frequent and hence have be bigger in order to cover additional, compounded loss from (now) more frequent losses, which, in turn, become more difficult to obtain... UNLESS one has proven method for longer periods and can fluidly adjust both side of equation. But in such a case this discussion would not take a place at all, which means...
I agree. The rule of success for daytrading is still "Let the profit run and stop the loss early" so that way the profit would be larger than losses so ideally one should aim for large wins vs. small wins but what I was saying was IF you want to nail just small losses then you must keep your losses small to match the wins.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #48
  • Sep 7, 2017 1:04pm Sep 7, 2017 1:04pm
Quoting Forexia
{quote} I agree. The rule of success for daytrading is still "Let the profit run and stop the loss early" so that way the profit would be larger than losses so ideally one should aim for large wins vs. small wins but what I was saying was IF you want to nail just small losses then you must keep your losses small to match the wins.
make 7x 100$, and lose 3x 200$ will keep profits smaller then the "big losses" but will make money,without letting profits run, or cutting losses smaller than the winnings.

it is all about the individual math, and the balance finding what working out for you or not.
that most certainly at some point overwrite what the common " good practice" tells one should do to be a winner, especially since most of these common practice advisers tend to be a net losers themself, too often. (this part not aimed to anyone particular, a general observation only!)
there is always, always another trade!!
  • #49
  • Sep 7, 2017 4:49pm Sep 7, 2017 4:49pm
Quoting profitfarmer
{quote} make 7x 100$, and lose 3x 200$ will keep profits smaller then the "big losses" but will make money,without letting profits run, or cutting losses smaller than the winnings. it is all about the individual math, and the balance finding what working out for you or not. that most certainly at some point overwrite what the common " good practice" tells one should do to be a winner, especially since most of these common practice advisers tend to be a net losers themself, too often. (this part not aimed to anyone particular, a general observation...
$200 loss vs. $100 is not TOO bad although it's still 200%, TWICE of the winning and in your example, it's only fine because you were able to make 7 X $100 profit. What if you weren't? What if you were only able to make 2 X $100 profit? You never know what the market deals to you. If you made just 2 X $100 profit, and then if you incur a ONE time $200 loss, it would've wiped out all of your profit. And if we stretch the period longer, let's say you have a winning streak of 4 X $100 profit, but for the next 2 times in a row, you had $200 loss, that again would've wiped out your ENTIRE FOUR winning streaks!! Yes you are not losing money but the goal of trading is make POSITIVE profit. What's the point of trading if you are going to just break even and make zero money all the time??!! You are just donating commissions to your broker and/or helping your broker earn the spreads.

You can continue this exercise as long as you want but you will see it's NOT worth it when the loss is larger than the winning especially if you are aiming for just small profit at a time. The loss amount must at least match your profit target amount.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #50
  • Sep 7, 2017 5:09pm Sep 7, 2017 5:09pm
I'd rather try to nail a small amount every week instead of everyday. That's more achievable since you don't have to trade everyday. You just open a trade on Monday or Tuesday or even Wednesday, then close it on friday if the SL hasn't been hit yet.
  • #51
  • Sep 7, 2017 5:11pm Sep 7, 2017 5:11pm
Quoting Forexia
{quote} $200 loss vs. $100 is not TOO bad although it's still 200%, TWICE of the winning and in your example, it's only fine because you were able to make 7 X $100 profit. What if you weren't? What if you were only able to make 2 X $100 profit? You never know what the market deals to you. If you made just 2 X $100 profit, and then if you incur a ONE time $200 loss, it would've wiped out all of your profit. And if we stretch the period longer, let's say you have a winning streak of 4 X $100 profit, but for the next 2 times in a row, you had $200...

ok, lets turn it around, your winning is 400$, the loss is 200$.... winning 40%....ideal right?
win 1600, loss 1200....positive outcome.

but each trade is random event, so, all gets randomly distributed, right?
say somewhere around 100 trades it start to average out...40 win, 60 loss...
can it be distributed as 40 net loss in a row? sure...
can it wipe out most of your equity in the process of risking only 2%/trade? sure

man, theory is great, but i am a visual sort of type guy...like to see things.
would you be kind and attach a TE so i will be able to see what you want to show me to be the right way to do things?
obviously, i am able to demonstrate with my TE how not to do things LOL.
there is always, always another trade!!
  • #52
  • Sep 7, 2017 6:11pm Sep 7, 2017 6:11pm
Quoting profitfarmer
{quote} ok, lets turn it around, your winning is 400$, the loss is 200$.... winning 40%....ideal right? win 1600, loss 1200....positive outcome. but each trade is random event, so, all gets randomly distributed, right? say somewhere around 100 trades it start to average out...40 win, 60 loss... can it be distributed as 40 net loss in a row? sure... can it wipe out most of your equity in the process of risking only 2%/trade? sure man, theory is great, but i am a visual sort of type guy...like to see things. would you be kind and attach a TE so i...
Well like I said, you never know what the market deals you so what we are looking at is *probabilities*. With winnings > losses, it is NOT a guarantee that your account will always end up in the green but the *probabilities* of that is higher for obvious reasons. The winnings can cover more losses. Can you still blow your account with winnings > losses? Sure you can. Plenty of people have done it but provided you keep the losses < winnings, the probability of the entire account being blow is lower. If you want to see it visually, you can run a backtest with different type of profit target vs. stop-loss amount over a long period of time and you can see for yourself what happens to the account. Many trading software like Ninja Trader, MultiCharts all provide excellent backtesting facilities that allow you to test various scenarios.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #53
  • Sep 7, 2017 6:20pm Sep 7, 2017 6:20pm
lol, i like to see visually that you walk the walk.
i see the talk part.
there is always, always another trade!!
  • #54
  • Sep 7, 2017 11:30pm Sep 7, 2017 11:30pm
Quoting profitfarmer
lol, i like to see visually that you walk the walk. i see the talk part.
Using trading softwares to backtest various trading scenarios to see if your theory of trading by taking small profits at time with larger losses would work IS seeing it visually just without risking any of your real money. Since it's your theory, YOU would have to prove to us with your trading results. You are going to be the one who will have to "walk the walk" if you want to waste your trading capital.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #55
  • Sep 8, 2017 1:20am Sep 8, 2017 1:20am
Quoting Forexia
{quote} Using trading softwares to backtest various trading scenarios to see if your theory of trading by taking small profits at time with larger losses would work IS seeing it visually just without risking any of your real money. Since it's your theory, YOU would have to prove to us with your trading results. You are going to be the one who will have to "walk the walk" if you want to waste your trading capital.
i have a TE, take it is proof, that might know what i do.
and dont sweat it, i dont really expected you to have the same to back up your words.
happy tradings to you!
there is always, always another trade!!
  • #56
  • Sep 8, 2017 6:18pm Sep 8, 2017 6:18pm
Quoting profitfarmer
{quote} i have a TE, take it is proof, that might know what i do. and dont sweat it, i dont really expected you to have the same to back up your words. happy tradings to you!
I was going to ask you if you TE trades with small profit at a time and larger losses. If this is working out for you, good for you. This is a discussion of trading strategies, not a pissing contest so there is really no need for statements like "I don't expect you to have the same to back up your words" for another trader. Trading is a life-time venture not just for several months or for several years. He who laughs the most is the one who laughs last. Just remember that.

Happy trading to you too!
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #57
  • Sep 8, 2017 7:01pm Sep 8, 2017 7:01pm
Quoting Forexia
{quote} I was going to ask you if you TE trades with small profit at a time and larger losses. If this is working out for you, good for you. This is a discussion of trading strategies, not a pissing contest so there is really no need for statements like "I don't expect you to have the same to back up your words" for another trader. Trading is a life-time venture not just for several months or for several years. He who laughs the most is the one who laughs last. Just remember that. Happy trading to you too!
My comments are/were in response to OP, and yes, TE can use represent to back up my words.
Mostly smaller profits, regularly, but not so many large losses. Still should qualify.
Agree, no pissing content, only if something can work X long maybe with lifelong practice can work till last laugh too. Alternatively, it doesn't need to even work lifelong, just as a 9-5 job doesn't need to end until the last laugh.

My take was and is, that profiting regularly smaller amount is possible, just not with a fixed amount daily. Neither pips, nor $.
That mentality adjusted OP can work on execution.
there is always, always another trade!!
  • #58
  • Sep 14, 2017 11:17am Sep 14, 2017 11:17am
If you can control yourself and your trading account and make a steady 3-6 pips a day, it can be great. the question is how you are going to do it ?

Some times you win and some time you loose, but if you can keep the profit coming so you are standing on a old mine. its a lot about your strategy and self control.
  • #59
  • Sep 14, 2017 4:25pm Sep 14, 2017 4:25pm
Problem with this strategy is no one knows what trade to put through, lol.
  • #60
  • Sep 14, 2017 6:04pm Sep 14, 2017 6:04pm
Quoting GnWFx
Trading 0.5 lot on a $1000 balance will be taking a huge risk. Personally, with that balance, I would be trading 0.05 lots or probably 0.1 lot max on each trade. With a stop loss of, say 25-50 pips, you would be risking about 2.5% of your balance on a single trade. And why go for 4 pips per day? If you have a workable strategy, you could go for higher targets.
You would have to downsize your position after just one loss. If you are going to scalp you can scale up your position but not that much. I would never let a scalp position that I was trying to make 4 pips off run against me 25 pips.
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