Is there enough money to be made for every retail trader? | Forex Factory

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Is there enough money to be made for every retail trader?

  • #1
  • First Post: Jun 24, 2017 12:42pm Jun 24, 2017 12:42pm
Lets say every trader wins. Either they are wining trader by themselves or they are copying winning traders. So no retail loses. Is there enough money to be made then for everyone to win?

When I look at some copy trading sites, it looks like nice graphs, and why is not everyone copying those. Everyone could live a dream and stop working. Of course that would create inflation if everyone win easy money but thats different topic.
  • #2
  • Jun 25, 2017 4:53am Jun 25, 2017 4:53am
That's silly.

Of course, (90%++) retail traders are set up for incurring consistent losses to feed the real professional traders.
'For the market to work, it needs people who think that they can beat it.'
  • #3
  • Jun 25, 2017 5:55am Jun 25, 2017 5:55am
Quoting AlastorFate
That's silly. Of course, (90%++) retail traders are set up for incurring consistent losses to feed the real professional traders.
that its 90% loosing, does not mean that they can lose enough so that winners could earn.

For example. 90 losers lose 1000$ on average each year. So total lost is 90 000 $. Now there are 10 winners, who need to earn 10 000 per year. So they together need to win 100 000 $ per year. So there is not enough lost in this example.
  • #4
  • Jun 25, 2017 6:19am Jun 25, 2017 6:19am
Quoting dkrock
Modern money is electronic, so there is an infinite supply. That is why there will be a global depression soon.
before electronic money - were all money as banknotes and coins? I think before electronic money they could easily use some documents on paper where they write some number like now in computer database they can create. I do not see a difference.

Still lot of big transactions were done in banks I think just saying I send x money to y person, and not counting real banknotes.

Plus electronic money like bitcoin I think is trying to solve that problem that money will not be able to be created from air after it reaches some preset amount.
  • #5
  • Edited 10:02am Jun 25, 2017 8:12am | Edited 10:02am
Quoting SPeedFANat1c
Lets say every trader wins. Either they are wining trader by themselves or they are copying winning traders. So no retail loses. Is there enough money to be made then for everyone to win? When I look at some copy trading sites, it looks like nice graphs, and why is not everyone copying those. Everyone could live a dream and stop working. Of course that would create inflation if everyone win easy money but thats different topic.
I think there is enough money to be made for every retail trader who wins, as long as they are not trading with more money than the big banks do. I think there is always someone who will lose but that is not necessary the retail traders. those who loses are the international corporations/companies that buys/sells various products from various countries and they need to exchange their own currencies to the other. sometimes they might win too. there are others than retail traders who loses money, i think also the big banks can lose when they have to stabilize their economy by lowering/increasing the exchange rate of their own currency. so everybody who exchanges currency are not doing it only to profit from it.

what i just said is based on all the stuff i have read over the years so dont consider this as 100% true, make your own researches.

edit: if every trader wins, that's because there is enough liquidity or else they would not win i guess. so in that case yes.
  • #6
  • Jun 25, 2017 8:21am Jun 25, 2017 8:21am
wow, this thread is stupid (except for Alastorfate) ... forexfactory reaching new lows
  • #7
  • Jun 25, 2017 8:26am Jun 25, 2017 8:26am
Bear in mind that forex exchange is a deal between traders and liquidity providers (brokers,banks,etc) so its absolutely impossible for all traders to benefit due to the structure of market making , they see our orders (retail traders) ,at some point most retail traders can be in profit, but in the long run most traders would lose those gains and probably margin call. The main issue for most traders is consistency in this aspect the market would beat you at it. Although experienced and well deciplined traders stand a chance to understand how to trade financial markets.
  • #8
  • Jun 25, 2017 9:21am Jun 25, 2017 9:21am
Quoting SPeedFANat1c
Lets say every trader wins. Either they are wining trader by themselves or they are copying winning traders. So no retail loses.

Trading is a zero sum game (apart from dealing costs, spreads/commissions).

99%+ of retail forex traders aren't trading in a real market.

Each is trading against his own broker (they're not really brokers: they're market-makers).

So if there are "no retail losses" the brokers go out of business.
  • #9
  • Jun 25, 2017 9:31am Jun 25, 2017 9:31am
Unless you understand that there is a dealer for every pair and the MM sets a pattern that he follows, you can never win. It's the PATTERN that is real.
  • #10
  • Jun 25, 2017 9:52am Jun 25, 2017 9:52am
Quoting cvds16
wow, this thread is stupid (except for Alastorfate) ... forexfactory reaching new lows
I disagree!

I'm sure there are enough people paying for mirror services, and magical EA's, to warrant a reason for them to exist?

Maybe those people haven't asked themselves the question that the OP did...

Also, it gives us a clue...
Why is a Raven like a Writing Desk?
  • #11
  • Jun 25, 2017 10:52am Jun 25, 2017 10:52am
I haven't tried any copying trading platform. But lazy trading and guarantee profit??? Sounds too good to be true. I sense scam coming out of these copying trading offers.

One thing I know of is the brokers charge considerably higher spread (commission) than usual for trades taken on such platform.

And I don't know of any reputable brokerage firms that offer copy trading as a trading option. (correct me if I am wrong on this)

If there is such thing as consistent safe guarantee profit, rest assured that the public will be barred from it.
'For the market to work, it needs people who think that they can beat it.'
  • #12
  • Jun 25, 2017 11:34am Jun 25, 2017 11:34am
Quoting AlastorFate
I don't know of any reputable brokerage firms that offer copy trading as a trading option. (correct me if I am wrong on this)

There are several reputable ones that do.

Interactive Brokers is just one example - really, there are plenty.

It's a service they more or less have to offer, and anyway they're happy to, naturally, because it's all extra customers and commission income for them, at no cost.

Many people set up such accounts so that their CTA can do automated trades on their behalf - linked to his own account - but without accessing the capital.

There are thousands (probably tens of thousands) of these copy accounts held at perfectly respectable brokerages.
  • #13
  • Jun 25, 2017 1:25pm Jun 25, 2017 1:25pm
Quoting SPeedFANat1c
Lets say every trader wins. Either they are wining trader by themselves or they are copying winning traders. So no retail loses. Is there enough money to be made then for everyone to win? When I look at some copy trading sites, it looks like nice graphs, and why is not everyone copying those. Everyone could live a dream and stop working. Of course that would create inflation if everyone win easy money but thats different topic.
you should really start to learn the basics in this market and stop trading until you know this. its really extrem dangerous to trade with no knowing the basics.
its only a tip, but really not a bad one.

in forex market there is no money printed, all money is only changing from one hand to an other. so simple. its not like trading shares in economic companies or other markets. if someone wins, other need to lose. because of fees often when someone has breakeven after one year in balance, other needs to lose even 30% to compensate this breakeven trader (as average).
  • #14
  • Jun 25, 2017 11:18pm Jun 25, 2017 11:18pm
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} you should really start to learn the basics in this market and stop trading until you know this. its really extrem dangerous to trade with no knowing the basics. its only a tip, but really not a bad one. in forex market there is no money printed, all money is only changing from one hand to an other. so simple. its not like trading shares in economic companies or other markets. if someone wins, other need to lose. because of fees often when someone has breakeven after one year in balance, other needs to lose even 30% to compensate this breakeven...
This basically ^^^. In other words, 1. pros make money off of rookies. There will always be rookies. Most will continue to be rookies until they become pros or drop out and be replaced by more rookies. The simple fact is, not everyone has the discipline to succeed in the business, even if given the perfect strategy. 2. Not everyone makes $$$ at the same time, so it is shared around in the form of losses, like when you get stopped out for example.
  • #15
  • Edited 6:11am Jun 26, 2017 5:44am | Edited 6:11am
Quoting Madinvestor
{quote} This basically ^^^. In other words, 1. pros make money off of rookies. There will always be rookies. Most will continue to be rookies until they become pros or drop out and be replaced by more rookies. The simple fact is, not everyone has the discipline to succeed in the business, even if given the perfect strategy. 2. Not everyone makes $$$ at the same time, so it is shared around in the form of losses, like when you get stopped out for example.
not only this, if there are only pros left, there will still 80-95% lose because it needs many losers to pay winners in a market where money is only changing hands. in lottery noone is aksing question, why only some win and many lost, but its same money changing hand to hand market. but looks in lottery people understand it more easy.

pros advantage is experience and they know what they do. learning from basics and math is the only rule, no other. rest comes from this. you dont have bad emotions when done basics and math correct, or something was wrong in basic or math, and all this is same for all other topics....

i have also seen many pros lost. in my trainer time we did make a test before we trained some people, and only some passed the test. we did pick people who had some knowledge in market (so no 100% rookies) and told them things they did wrong in perfect math and basics. then we did let them trade for 1 month more. 90 % did not used this and hold on their wrong decisions, because they did not recalculate or evaluate it or could not understand it. we did only choose the about 10 % who was able to change their mistakes or tried to change it and had reasons for not got it very fast. you can maybe train the rest 90 % too,. but the time to invest is about 5-20 times higher, and the risk of fail in so extrem much higher.
for many people its difficult to be wrong, but you need this ability to can be wrong many times, and learn with time and improve. many dont improve or do it so slow, you cant help them.

often its more easy to learn some rookie all things, because he has not learned mistakes already. if you train someone who traded longer time (and not by best math and basic knowledge ,like 99,99999% do) you need someone smart with good character, who can see this and change it.
  • #16
  • Jun 26, 2017 7:26am Jun 26, 2017 7:26am
As long as most people lose, then there will always be a large pool of money from which to profit, and as the mathematical odds are heavily against this ever changing, then you have nothing to worry about, the money will always be there. It is the task of each of us to devise a way to extract it.
  • #17
  • Jun 26, 2017 7:33am Jun 26, 2017 7:33am
Quoting cat
As long as most people lose, then there will always be a large pool of money from which to profit, and as the mathematical odds are heavily against this ever changing, then you have nothing to worry about, the money will always be there. It is the task of each of us to devise a way to extract it.
... and so says the 99.9999 % (;

If after ten minutes at the poker table you do not know who the patsy is—you are the patsy.
POKER PROVERB
  • #18
  • Jul 6, 2017 10:45am Jul 6, 2017 10:45am
Quote
As long as most people lose, then there will always be a large pool of money from which to profit, and as the mathematical odds are heavily against this ever changing, then you have nothing to worry about, the money will always be there.

as long as most people lose enough money it should be correct.

I for example lose, but nobody wins from me because I lose on demo.
  • #19
  • Jul 6, 2017 10:48am Jul 6, 2017 10:48am
Quote
As long as most people lose, then there will always be a large pool of money from which to profit, and as the mathematical odds are heavily against this ever changing, then you have nothing to worry about, the money will always be there.

as long as most people lose enough money it should be correct.

I for example lose, but nobody wins from me because I lose on demo.

But if each winning trader needs to win like million per year, then each loosing trader has to lose about 100k per year. It is hard to understand how there can be so many lost money just by trading.

If I am loosing, I do not invest real money. Ok some cannot play on demo, they want gambling even knowing that they loose. They can deposit few hundred dollars. And loose. But 100k to deposit and lose? I do not get what they have to be thinking.
  • #20
  • Jul 6, 2017 10:52am Jul 6, 2017 10:52am
Quoting SPeedFANat1c
{quote} as long as most people lose enough money it should be correct. I for example lose, but nobody wins from me because I lose on demo. But if each winning trader needs to win like million per year, then each loosing trader has to lose about 100k per year. It is hard to understand how there can be so many lost money just by trading. If I am loosing, I do not invest real money. Ok some cannot play on demo, they want gambling even knowing that they loose. They can deposit few hundred dollars. And loose. But 100k to deposit and lose? I do not get...
thats the big wrong calculation.!!!!!

an average trader with break even after one year with 100k balance has produced about 30000 spread costs. so this 30000 someone else has lost.
when someone lost after 1 year from 100k to 50k balance, there need to be about 80000k other persons lost, and so on.

if you trade less the number is smaller, if you trade much its higher, also depends in currencies.
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