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  • #1
  • First Post: Dec 2, 2018 10:18pm Dec 2, 2018 10:18pm
I am hearing that the latest builds of mt4 can prevent thieves from stealing your intellectual property.

If I were to post an ex4 file on the web, what is the likely hood that it could be cracked?

Now I do not mean members of Anonymous, but just regular thieves.
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #2
  • Dec 2, 2018 11:54pm Dec 2, 2018 11:54pm
yes that is true, there is a limitation how far a thieves can crack your ex4 file, mostly i have seen coders are themselves one who try to crack other peoples ex4 files. here on ff tons of them are present. even if one succeed to see the source code from ex4 file, its not always a good result appears in front, its almost always rewriting with logic is required.

in my view, yes ex4 are more protected in new build if a great coder is not trying to crack it.
In the court of lord, only love and devotion is counted...
  • #3
  • Dec 3, 2018 1:34am Dec 3, 2018 1:34am
Quoting jmn5611
what is the likely hood that it could be cracked?
It would take a little less time than it took me to write this sentence. Try Googling "decode ex4" -- you'll see many listings for decompilers.

A decompiled file is not exactly like the original source -- but enough of the original code and APIs remain that an experienced and motivated programmer can figure it out. There is a lot of decompiled *.ex4 indicators and EAs out there.

There could be a difference between decoding and cracking. If the *.ex4 required a license key that could only be validated by a remote license server, then even if the *.ex4 was decoded, execution would fail because the license key was missing. However, in that case, the thief could simply edit the decoded file, remove the code that performs the remote check for the license key, recompile, and then run it without the check. So -- you have to be a bit more clever even when using license keys.

I think you have to distinguish between two concerns -- protecting your IP or preventing someone from executing the code without having purchased the software and a license key. How you go about solving each of these would require a different approach.
  • #4
  • Dec 3, 2018 10:30am Dec 3, 2018 10:30am
Quoting robots4me
{quote} Try Googling "decode ex4" -- you'll see many listings for decompilers.
There is still no proof that any of those decompilers is able to decompile ex4 compiled with 600+ builds.

Quoting robots4me
{quote} protecting your IP or preventing someone from executing the code without having purchased the software and a license key
The only "safe" way to protect your software in this MT4/MT5 environment is to have all vital calculations outside of it. You give away the calculations, when included in ex4. So you have to calculate in a safe environment and only pass the results to the ex4 which is only presenting the results of the calculation.
  • #5
  • Dec 3, 2018 10:49am Dec 3, 2018 10:49am
Quoting JensItzig
There is still no proof that any of those decompilers is able to decompile ex4 compiled with 600+ builds.
What are you talking about? Proof? There are many decompilers to choose from -- give one a try and see for yourself.

Look it -- MT4 is a GUI app that uses the Internet to send price data to your computer. To build an executable file -- whether a *.exe that runs in the Windows environment or *.ex4 that runs in the MT4 environment -- you need a compiler. The compiler that is used to build *.ex4 files is from Microsoft -- and NOT MetaQuotes. Again -- MT4 uses a stripped-down Microsoft C++ compiler. Just like *.ex4 files, *.exe Windows files can also be decompiled.

A compiler is a tool that converts source code (i.e. human-readable text) to binary numbers that represent machine instructions. A decompiler is the converse tool -- it converts machine instructions back to source code. Some things are lost in the conversion -- but enough remains.

Developers can use encryption to protect portions of their source code. You would never encrypt an entire *.ex4 -- only those portions that include the magic sauce. When the *.ex4 first runs it would unencrypt certain portions of the code and load them into memory to be executed. A decompiler will not work in this case but, again, an experienced and motivated programmer can still do a memory dump to gain access to the unencrypted instructions in memory. No one is going to go to that effort unless they know ahead of time there is some pretty valuable information to be had.
  • #6
  • Dec 3, 2018 11:15am Dec 3, 2018 11:15am
Quoting jmn5611
I am hearing that the latest builds of mt4 can prevent thieves from stealing your intellectual property. If I were to post an ex4 file on the web, what is the likely hood that it could be cracked? Now I do not mean members of Anonymous, but just regular thieves.
As a general rule, if it's possible to compile, it's possible to decompile. Although let's suppose it is difficult, there is still someone somewhere that can do it. Even encryption algorithms are sometimes cracked and their vulnerabilities exposed so why would I assume a file encrypted by MetaQuotes is unbreakable? I would assume it is breakable by its creators MetaQuotes because it's not like they're exactly privacy advocates that are making it a point to take great measure to ensure it's not breakable. In any case, my suggestion is never to post anything helpful because 99.99% of the people here are ungrateful and begging for a handout. I personally regret any contribution I've ever made.
  • #7
  • Dec 3, 2018 12:19pm Dec 3, 2018 12:19pm
I have said this several times. One should never ever run a compiled MT4 executable from forums especially the ones that requires DDL to be enabled with reviewing the source code yourself and fully understanding what it does. You are simply inviting a thief into your backyard.

If anything thinks, just sharing an ex4 file protects your top secret algorithm, please think long and hard. Your BROKER (not metaquotes) can decompile any exe on the fly and reverse-engineer your algo within hours. It is an absolute fact the way source code is encrypted within the exe and not fully compiled like any legit software language would.

Please read this thread for more information. Anyone with software engineering background won't be able to deny what is being said here. In fact, just by installing MT4 in your home network can do some serious damage by someone shady with a lot of time on their hands. I know this because any standard penetration testing tools would reveal a lot of things penny account holders don't want to know or care to know or even understand. They just want to click click and expect unlimited money to flow into their accounts.

If you want to collaborate or need input or help, providing source code is the only legit way to do it. No one and I REPEAT NO ONE will share a successful money making algorithm out of goodness or helping struggling traders and just simple hand it over to a public forum. That will never happen in this life time unless you have some very long term personal relationship developed (atleast 5+ yrs) with the trader build on mutual respect and bi-directional information sharing. There are no freebees in this industry. Once has to work hard and think for yourself 7 days to Sunday until your eye-balls bleed with account drawdowns and repeat blowups. There is no other f*cking way! Just by couple of interactions, we should be able to tell who sits on a golden toilet seat and who shits on a railroad track.
Staying in my lane...
  • #8
  • Dec 3, 2018 12:25pm Dec 3, 2018 12:25pm
Quoting jmn5611
I am hearing that the latest builds of mt4 can prevent thieves from stealing your intellectual property. If I were to post an ex4 file on the web, what is the likely hood that it could be cracked? Now I do not mean members of Anonymous, but just regular thieves.
Sorry jmn. I didn't realize it was you who started this thread or I would have addressed my post to you. Any algo can be reverse-engineered without hacking the source code. If one can create a systemic logic, one can easily (or with our lot of devotion) recreate the same or similar algorithm. In my early phase of career 2 decades ago, we were reverse-engineering far more complex software applications used by large companies which were unsupported by software vendors. I am talking mainframe application products. A trading algorithm is nothing close to the complexities involved in commercial applications used by large multi-nationals.
Staying in my lane...
  • #9
  • Dec 3, 2018 1:25pm Dec 3, 2018 1:25pm
It may be soo but if its that easy why after talking too 10-20 very good and some lesser good coders none of them could help me change the TP in my EA because i didnt have the source code----
  • #10
  • Edited 2:21pm Dec 3, 2018 2:01pm | Edited 2:21pm
Quote
Your BROKER (not metaquotes) can decompile any exe on the fly and reverse-engineer your algo within hours

@VEEFX -- Sorry, but that statement is definitely not true. Your *.ex4 does not get uploaded to some server in the sky where a broker can fiddle with it or decompile it. Your *.ex4 -- just like your *.exe Windows programs -- runs and executes on your local machine. Your indicators and expert advisors execute within the MT4 environment and receive tick data over the Internet from your broker, analyze that data locally (i.e. on your machine) and occasionally send order requests back to the broker's server. There is no reason and no need for code to be uploaded. From a practical point of view -- imagine you are a broker and every time one of your clients launches an indicator or EA it gets uploaded to your server. Seriously -- what are you going to do with them all?

As proof (sort of) -- if you've ever developed an indicator or EA you know that you can use MetaEditor as a debugger. If the code was not executing locally then you could not use the MetaEditor debugger.

I've read elsewhere where people think their EAs may be stolen by brokers -- that's just not the case. That's like saying every time I run MS Word that Microsoft is reading my document. It's a misconception that should not be perpetuated because it only keeps traders believing that MT4 is something dark and mysterious -- it's not...

Just to be clear -- if an indicator or EA links to an external, 3rd-party DLL then that could be a security problem. But if that is not the case, then the code is relatively safe since MT4 restricts code to running in what is called a "sandbox". If you are not using external DLLs there is no way for the code to reach the outside world.

Under Options / Expert Advisors MT4 offers some protection by requiring that you explicitly grant permission to your indicator or EA to allow DLL imports. If you are worried about 3rd-party DLLs causing harm, then do NOT check that checkbox. But, then, the indicator or EA will not be able to function.
  • #11
  • Dec 3, 2018 2:06pm Dec 3, 2018 2:06pm
Quoting Macedamia
It may be soo but if its that easy why after talking too 10-20 very good and some lesser good coders none of them could help me change the TP in my EA because i didnt have the source code----
If you send $10K I will change the TP in your EA -- you can send the *.ex4 and I will provide wire transfer instructions. It's easier with the *.mq4 source code -- but the EA can also be modified if you only have the *.ex4.
  • #12
  • Dec 3, 2018 2:27pm Dec 3, 2018 2:27pm
Quoting robots4me
{quote} If you send $10K I will change the TP in your EA -- you can send the *.ex4 and I will provide wire transfer instructions. It's easier with the *.mq4 source code -- but the EA can also be modified if you only have the *.ex4.
First time i have heard that,but i guess its a lot of work then since you need 10K too do it???
  • #13
  • Dec 3, 2018 2:42pm Dec 3, 2018 2:42pm
Quote
i guess its a lot of work then since you need 10K too do it???

No -- not really a lot of work. But since you've already mentioned that 20 other programmers said it couldn't be done, then you automatically set a high price.

Just to be clear -- I'm not serious about the $10K. @Macedamia -- I see you've been a member of FF for over 10 years. And you've never learned any coding skills during that time? If you devoted about a month to learning MQL you would have the necessary skills to make the modification yourself.
  • #14
  • Edited 5:15pm Dec 3, 2018 4:41pm | Edited 5:15pm
Quoting VEEFX
I have said this several times. One should never ever run a compiled MT4 executable from forums especially the ones that requires DDL to be enabled with reviewing the source code yourself and fully understanding what it does. You are simply inviting a thief into your backyard. If anything thinks, just sharing an ex4 file protects your top secret algorithm, please think long and hard. Your BROKER (not metaquotes) can decompile any exe on the fly and reverse-engineer your algo within hours. It is an absolute fact the way source code is encrypted within...
I totally agree VEE, my concern is someone comes along, rips the code, and then sells it on EBAY. I suppose that this cannot be stopped. The algo itself is no secret, as you know I do not believe there are any in retail. I hesitate to post even improved code because of the instances I have seen where it just gets sold. Coders like Mladen and cja don't even post mq4 files any more I don't think. I had heard that the later versions of MT4 had done some work to protect the intellectual rights of coders. I really appreciate the long term IT guys coming to answer my questions.

Quoting robots4me
{quote} @VEEFX -- Sorry, but that statement is definitely not true. Your *.ex4 does not get uploaded to some server in the sky where a broker can fiddle with it or decompile it. Your *.ex4 -- just like your *.exe Windows programs -- runs and executes on your local machine. Your indicators and expert advisors execute within the MT4 environment and receive tick data over the Internet from your broker, analyze that data locally (i.e. on your machine) and occasionally send order requests back to the broker's server. There is no reason and no need for...
This is good to know. I always wondered about that dll thing and I would sweat about using scripts because some the "change all" scripts require you to check the dll box or it will not function.

Quoting robots4me
{quote} No -- not really a lot of work. But since you've already mentioned that 20 other programmers said it couldn't be done, then you automatically set a high price. Just to be clear -- I'm not serious about the $10K. @Macedamia -- I see you've been a member of FF for over 10 years. And you've never learned any coding skills during that time? If you devoted about a month to learning MQL you would have the necessary skills to make the modification yourself.
It is almost a requirement to be able to code on at least a rudimentary level. I still cannot get the hang of arrays, but that is about it now.

Quoting spotrate
{quote} As a general rule, if it's possible to compile, it's possible to decompile. Although let's suppose it is difficult, there is still someone somewhere that can do it. Even encryption algorithms are sometimes cracked and their vulnerabilities exposed so why would I assume a file encrypted by MetaQuotes is unbreakable? I would assume it is breakable by its creators MetaQuotes because it's not like they're exactly privacy advocates that are making it a point to take great measure to ensure it's not breakable. In any case, my suggestion is never...
I recently added some code to an indicator that needed it. I hesitated before I clicked the mouse, how sad is that?
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #15
  • Edited 8:29pm Dec 3, 2018 7:43pm | Edited 8:29pm
Quote
where did I say exe runs on the server or it gets uploaded.

Because you claimed that brokers can decompile any exe...

Your words:
"Your BROKER (not metaquotes) can decompile any exe on the fly and reverse-engineer your algo within hours"

Where do you think your broker lives? Your broker exists on some server in the clouds. In order for your broker to have access to that *.ex4 would require the file to be uploaded.

MQL is NOT an interpreted language -- if it were, then it wouldn't be compiled / decompiled. It is a compiled language. MetaQuotes uses a trimmed-down version of the Microsoft C++ compiler. MT4 neither decompiles code nor shares code with your broker. In one sentence you complain about brokers being able to decompile your code, and in the next sentence you claim MQL is interpreted line-by-line. That's total nonsense. Interpreted languages are not compiled/decompiled. Compiled languages are not interpreted.

If you don't believe me, here's a link from MetaQuotes (the devlopers of MT4) about using Microsoft's C++ compiler:
https://www.metatrader5.com/en/metae...elopment/c_dll



Quote
If you have developed any client/server apps (I spent half a decade building C/S apps) then you know the server can/will/should know what the client is going... at all times,

Makes no difference how many decades you spent on client / server applications. You should know better -- there are many types of client / server architectures and applications. A server does NOT necessarily need to know what a client is doing at all times. For example -- I also develop web sites. There is a client / server relationship between a browser (client) and the Apache web server that hosts the site. Some code runs on the web server and some code runs locally on the (client) browser. The Apache server is totally oblivious to the code that runs on the local machine. MT4 is like a browser -- it is a local, client app that exchanges data with a server in the clouds. There is a lot that happens within MT4 running locally that the broker's server is unaware of.

You can always tell when someone is full of BS -- they spout garbage and resort to insults. @VEEFX -- dude -- it is said we are surrounded by idiots. I think you've proven that point...
  • #16
  • Dec 3, 2018 7:56pm Dec 3, 2018 7:56pm
Half the folks here on FF claims that Big banks/hedgefonds manipulate the market taking out stops and going against the retail sentiment and that means the money/possisions must be in the market and if the money is in the market brokers cant take the money you loose and the other half say actually the brokers are crocks taking your money bye hacking EA`S and manipulate platforms too make you loose and for that too be true the trading must be inhouse/never too enter market just like binaryoptions that ESMA banned...Dont you think if forex brokers did trading inhouse that regulaters and ESMA for Europes sake would close them down...The big brokers make a very good profit of commision and spread....I am not saying either but i feel safe that my large broker from the outback dont manipulate my platform ore trades inhouse.....I feel that the big guns are more realistic....I belive there a lot of paranoia here should have terapists sitting beside most traders so they dont loose their mind....
  • #17
  • Dec 3, 2018 9:11pm Dec 3, 2018 9:11pm
Quoting jmn5611
I am hearing that the latest builds of mt4 can prevent thieves from stealing your intellectual property. If I were to post an ex4 file on the web, what is the likely hood that it could be cracked? Now I do not mean members of Anonymous, but just regular thieves.
my 2 questions:

why would you post an ex4 file on the net?
assume you not mean by it showing to one of/couple of your friend?

what would be the incentive for anyone to decompile it?
the net is full of (mostly useless) ex4 files.
what would make yours different?

in conclusion:
what is so important for you, dont post for everyone to access.
what is not that important for you, just give the mq4 file, and save ppl the trouble.
dont sell ex4 file( EA). find another way to monetize it, if it is good.
dont sell ex4 file( EA) is you know it is likely a crap. that is scamming.

i think it covered most likely scenarios
there is always, always another trade!!
  • #18
  • Dec 3, 2018 10:03pm Dec 3, 2018 10:03pm
Quoting profitfarmer
why would you post an ex4 file on the net?
For people who trade using the MT4/MT5 platform, *.ex4 is the compiled format for indicators and EAs. If you want to share your work with others, then you can make it available either here (on FF) or at mql5.com. Just like with Windows, MacOS, Linux, Android, iPhone apps -- developers are often willing to share an executable but prefer to keep the source private. I mean -- you probably download apps all the time on your Android or iPhone device, yet you don't expect the source code. Why should MT4 be any different?

There are reasons -- unrelated to monetization -- why developers might not share their source code:
1. They want to prevent someone (e.g. a competitor) from making a simple modification, recompiling, and then claiming it as their own.
2. Most users don't know how to build or compile from a source file -- they only know which folder to copy a pre-built *.ex4.

I wouldn't be so quick to complain about poorly coded indicators or EAs -- especially those you got for free. Just like with everything else in life, there is a mix of good and bad and it is up to you to figure out which is which -- without complaining about it. For example -- here at FF there is certainly a lot of garbage posts, but we all keep coming back for more. That's because we occasionally find gems that we learn from and provide insight, new points of view and perspectives that help us grow as traders. Same thing with indicators and EAs -- yes, some are bad. But there are also many good ones.

A couple of months ago I didn't know who the OP of this thread was -- @jmn5611. I was relatively new to FF and was growing weary of all the BS posts. But then I came across some of jmn5611's comments and they changed my perspective. When I read something from @jmn5611 then it more than makes up for all the nonsense, idiocy and selfish things other people write.

Since I'm on a roll, then I'll add that complainers are the worst. I would prefer to listen to lies than someone complain. Good or bad -- liars have an agenda. Complainers don't have an agenda -- all they are looking for is to pat themselves on the back. When you don't have anything of value to contribute, then you complain about someone or something. In this way you convince yourself you've shared something of value -- even though you haven't. You've only added to the garbage heap. So, please, don't complain about indicators and EAs. Just sift through the good and bad and decide which are keepers and ignore the rest.
  • #19
  • Edited 10:51pm Dec 3, 2018 10:32pm | Edited 10:51pm
Quoting profitfarmer
{quote} my 2 questions: why would you post an ex4 file on the net? assume you not mean by it showing to one of/couple of your friend? what would be the incentive for anyone to decompile it? the net is full of (mostly useless) ex4 files. what would make yours different? in conclusion: what is so important for you, dont post for everyone to access. what is not that important for you, just give the mq4 file, and save ppl the trouble. dont sell ex4 file( EA). find another way to monetize it, if it is good. dont sell ex4 file( EA) is you know it is likely...
This started by some members of my family wondering why I carry my laptop, my tablet and my phone around with me all of the time. I told them I trade, they ask me how, I told them how. They did not get it, so I said I would write an indicator for them so all they had to do was follow the alerts, the trades were ranked and everything. I spent a weekend on it and another day debugging it. So then I thought it might be useful and thought about posting it, but I have met some people on this site that I would not like to help THAT much. So it just entered my mind to put the ex4 up. Then I thought this might be a really bad idea. I have a fear about being an Oppenheimer ( on a much, much, much lesser scale) . During the writing of the indicator, I realized that I look at a whole lot more than I realized. That is why it is said that a person does not know anything until they can teach it effectively to someone else. I don't want to just put my brain online, so VEE, robots, and spot have effectively talked me out of a spectacularly bad idea. Which is what I really wanted anyway.

Quoting VEEFX
{quote} Nonsense! where did I say exe runs on the server or it gets uploaded. I did say decompiled but it really is decryption. There really is no compilation involved on the client nor the server. It's a line by line language interpreter with an encryption wrapper that gets decrypted on the fly during execution in real time on the MT4 client terminal which runs on your computer. Can you gaurantee with 100% certainty that only price quote is received by the terminal and order execution commands are only sent to the MT4 server? If you have developed...
That is how I learned. I had developed a code base over the years of over 2000 mql4 indicators. I will never, ever, write an EA. I just don't trust the MT4 trading environment. Hell, I even still manually check Alerts that I KNOW work! I like fxtrade much better for order execution, that, and in the land of the Free they kind of frown on FX, so it is not like I have a lot of options. My most recent addition was hanover's CSM indicator. It gave me some ideas that I could not quantify before, like what is a good bull/bear bar. I went back to some ancient stuff from other coders and found that I could read the code now. You know, blonde, brunette, redhead. It is funny what you can learn just from participating. I did not know that you have the level of IT experience that you do. I am glad that you have crossed the anger barrier and are willing to give out what you consider are some red pills. I don't know much about coding myself, I could not write anything from scratch. But I have gotten pretty decent at finding the right code for the right situation.

So, do you think MT5 will be better? I read from someone that Oanda says that at some point they will have to switch over.
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #20
  • Dec 4, 2018 12:06am Dec 4, 2018 12:06am
Quoting jmn5611
{quote} This started by some members of my family wondering why I carry my laptop, my tablet and my phone around with me all of the time. I told them I trade, they ask me how, I told them how. They did not get it, so I said I would write an indicator for them so all they had to do was follow the alerts, the trades were ranked and everything. I spent a weekend on it and another day debugging it. So then I thought it might be useful and thought about posting it, but I have met some people on this site that I would not like to help THAT much. So it...
interesting, thx.
but helping the few family members not necessarily translate to posting something online.
or do you fear they will do it?
it should not even cross the this forum for instance and to help "THAT much" to anyone here you otherwise not intended to.

anyway, teaching...without teaching one to in effect interpret your indicator and its signals the way you do, it will be most likely useless.
especially without a look into the real key issue, the money management side of your ( profitable) trading.
and ultimately that would be where the issue is.
would your family follow EXACTLY what you do?
is there any other, easier, obvious solution readily available, to ensure the EXACTLY part, without needing to depart any knowhow?
just food for thoughts!
there is always, always another trade!!
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