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Python or Perl?

  • #1
  • First Post: Jun 9, 2006 9:38am Jun 9, 2006 9:38am
I saw in posts that people are using Python.

My question is: How do you use it? Just to test ideas or you can connect your program to Broker and create some kind of Expert Adviser wich can execute trades automatically.

All other ideas of utilizing other programming languages (not included with your trading software like TrendStation or Metatrader) will be appritiated.
  • #2
  • Jun 9, 2006 10:01am Jun 9, 2006 10:01am
I don't think there are brokers that put out a python or perl interface. They either use some proprietary language or a mainstream language like Java (I think Oanda offers automatic trading using Java).

If the broker would offer a C/C++ library to access the platform then one could write bindings for either python or perl. But I don't think it is worth the trouble. Trading system are not really complicated in terms of coding so I wouldn't care which language they offer.

But creating and testing systems is a more tedious work where a flexibile language like python or perl would fit much better.
-soso
  • #3
  • Jun 9, 2006 10:17am Jun 9, 2006 10:17am
Quoting soso_beton
I don't think there are brokers that put out a python or perl interface. They either use some proprietary language or a mainstream language like Java (I think Oanda offers automatic trading using Java).

If the broker would offer a C/C++ library to access the platform then one could write bindings for either python or perl. But I don't think it is worth the trouble. Trading system are not really complicated in terms of coding so I wouldn't care which language they offer.

But creating and testing systems is a more tedious work where a flexibile language like python or perl would fit much better.
You can integrate Python with COM and of course, you can always do socket programming.

Perl can do the same thing.

C++...same thing.

Most of the APIs I've seen have come out as either COM, socket or Java. Anyway you slice it, you can create the programming in most languages available. Not terribly difficult.
  • #4
  • Jun 9, 2006 10:23am Jun 9, 2006 10:23am
OK now you have hit my hot button. You must use PYTHON!!!!! Go to python.org and download it for free.

I suggest that if you are new to programming that you go to the beginners section and look at the tutorial called "how to think like a computer scientist using python". It is written on a High School level and anybody can learn how to program with that.

If you already know a bit of programming, then Python is a snap. It is fully object oriented and is interpeted rather than compiled, so you can test short snippets of code on the fly right on the console. It is self documenting (unlike pearl) and is easy to read (not a lot of unsightly {{{ and :; crap) to clutter things up just indenting.) It is really just a thin wrapper for C, so you can drop into C at any time if you feel the need for speed. The new versions of Python are fast and effecient. It is as fast as Java or Perl in most applications.

Some folks still think of Python as a scripting language like Pearl, but it is much more. It is a fully functional language. You can use it to write web aps, or games (Civ IV) or Google. My son does anamation for Disney and they use it as a glue language to tie together a bunch of renderes and shaders and junk.

As to hacking an API, which is your orgional intent I supose, I can hack the API in VT Trader in Python in about three lines of code. Ok now I am in and the whole API is exposed. All I have to do is write routines to access the variables that they provide and tweek them to get and send the data that I need to put on a trade. Pretty cool Huh?
Nolite dormiens pungere ursum. -- Latan Proverb.
  • #5
  • Jun 9, 2006 10:37am Jun 9, 2006 10:37am
Quoting soso_beton
I don't think there are brokers that put out a python or perl interface. They either use some proprietary language or a mainstream language like Java (I think Oanda offers automatic trading using Java).

.
FYI Python is a mainstream language. Google is written in almost pure python. NASA and Disney use it a LOT. Many games now use it as the scripting language (Civ IV for one). You would be shocked if you knew how many of the web pages that you see every day were powered by Python or one of it's children like Zope or Webware. Microsoft just adopted it for thier .NET environment.

The reason that you don't hear a lot of houpala about Python is because it is not a Comercial language like Java (Sun Microsystems) or Visual Basic (Microsoft) They don't have this massave ad budjet pushing it. It is just a bunch of really bright guys working for free to put out a great product for all to share for free.
Nolite dormiens pungere ursum. -- Latan Proverb.
  • #6
  • Jun 9, 2006 11:03am Jun 9, 2006 11:03am
Quoting MrWhipple
FYI Python is a mainstream language. Google is written in almost pure python. NASA and Disney use it a LOT. Many games now use it as the scripting language (Civ IV for one). You would be shocked if you knew how many of the web pages that you see every day were powered by Python or one of it's children like Zope or Webware. Microsoft just adopted it for thier .NET environment.

The reason that you don't hear a lot of houpala about Python is because it is not a Comercial language like Java (Sun Microsystems) or Visual Basic (Microsoft) They don't have this massave ad budjet pushing it. It is just a bunch of really bright guys working for free to put out a great product for all to share for free.
Wizard, some wise words, but I'm going to have to kindly disagree.

However, from a purely business stand point, Python is not what I would call, mainstream.

I think PHP/Perl has a vastly larger following that Python and I'm afraid you can mangify that following by 10 times for either Java or Microsoft and probably even more so for C++.

Python has a large following, and don't get me wrong, I dig it...but you're stretching a little bit :-) If you look at Monster, you could browse through hundreds of thousands of resumes for C++, .NET and Java, and 10s of thousands for PHP/Perl, but I'm afraid to say that number is dramatically reduced when looking for people who work with Python or are looking for something specifically for it.

Don't get me wrong, but it's a means to an end.

I suppose Python is on the radar with most technical people, but comparing it to the big 3 (C++, .NET and Java) is definitely pushing the envelope. Whether or not it is "better" really depends on how you look at it. For me, I look it at as (and as most technical people do) something that's good to know, but it's not necessarily going to put food on the table. Python is still on the fringes...and while I'm sure you can present a great case for why python is "mainstream", I don't think it makes it better of a language because it doesn't use semicolons and braces. After all, what you call trash is another man's art...right? :-)

Personally, I'm fond of the C/C++/C#/Perl/Java/PHP styles...I don't find them unsightly at all...and I actually make a fantastic living programming in .NET...my clients all want the same things...(.NET, ASP, PHP/Perl or Java and on occasion C/C++) I have yet to make any money from clients desiring Python, let alone a request...

Of course, just because I'm of the belief that the big 3 dwarf Python in terms of following, that doesn't necessarily put Python out of the mainstream...but I when I think of mainstream, I defintely think of the big 3 first, and then something like Perl and Python...

Anyway, love your work, buddy...I just had to defend my meal-tickets...so to speak...props to you.
  • #7
  • Jun 9, 2006 12:45pm Jun 9, 2006 12:45pm
MrWhipple Python is my favorite language too! But from a business point of view it is not mainstream. And money is where business is. I've been through this vs that language fight a long time ago, it doesn't matter anymore for me if it does the job from a practical point of view.

I feel this conversation will pave the way for this thread to the Lounge section!
-soso
  • #8
  • Jun 9, 2006 3:55pm Jun 9, 2006 3:55pm
Not to dis on anybody here but you did kinda make my point for me. I was only trying to draw a distinction between Comercially sussessfull progamming languages like the big 3 or 5 depending who you listen to (some still include COBOL yech!) and mainstream languages from an academic point of view. ie fully featured, developed tested, robust, elegant, trustworthy, brave clean, and reverent.

Sure if Python had the backing of Sun or Microsoft or AT&T or Bell Labs (you get the point) Python would be right up there in the "mainstream" commercially too.

On the flip side if Java was developed by some guy named Guido in his bedroom in the Netherlands and put out by a bunch of his pals on the internet with the budjet of a frat drinking club; then we might never know it existed.
Nolite dormiens pungere ursum. -- Latan Proverb.
  • #9
  • Jun 9, 2006 5:47pm Jun 9, 2006 5:47pm
Quoting MrWhipple
Not to dis on anybody here but you did kinda make my point for me. I was only trying to draw a distinction between Comercially sussessfull progamming languages like the big 3 or 5 depending who you listen to (some still include COBOL yech!) and mainstream languages from an academic point of view. ie fully featured, developed tested, robust, elegant, trustworthy, brave clean, and reverent.

Sure if Python had the backing of Sun or Microsoft or AT&T or Bell Labs (you get the point) Python would be right up there in the "mainstream" commercially too.

On the flip side if Java was developed by some guy named Guido in his bedroom in the Netherlands and put out by a bunch of his pals on the internet with the budjet of a frat drinking club; then we might never know it existed.
LOL...you are definitely a defender...

As a computer science graduate, we did know about python and that was the extent of our experience, but again...we gave much more time to C++ and Java than we did to Python in the classroom and even outside in our own projects. Hell, we gave LISP more time...

We're definitely bashing Python, but all those things you describe...definitely scream for the cliche "beauty is in the eye of the beholder"...

I'll take my C syntax please...LOL

Props to python though, it's a good tool. Just like Perl. Nice quick and can be clear and concise.
  • #10
  • Jun 10, 2006 3:22am Jun 10, 2006 3:22am
Yea verrly, amen amen and Halelulya!! I can see a convert wating in the pews. Come on down brother and listen to the sweet word of the Snake. (Actually it was named after Monty Python, but that dosen't stop folks from using snakey pics and stuff.) If you are a C, C++, C# programmer then you have a great use for Python.

I know a bunch of programmers that use Python to debug just the logic of thier code. When they get the ideas bashed out, the resulting Python looks a LOT like C. It's just a matter of coding the inner loop stuff and the fast stuff in C and leaving the GUI and a lot of the logic in Python. After all, Python is just C in a verrrrry thin wrapper. It gives you a lot of time leverage and you get the logic down solid in days instead of weeks and the Python ends being working psudeo code. Give it a try, you just might like it.

Amen and Amen. Now the Choir will sing Hymn number 64 "I have a friend in Python" and then we will all please stand for the Benidiction.

(end of sermon. MrWhipple hangs up his priestly vestments and crips back to his lab to conjure up a few more Holy Pips.)
Nolite dormiens pungere ursum. -- Latan Proverb.
  • #11
  • Jun 10, 2006 4:44am Jun 10, 2006 4:44am
I generally use perl in my work. The main problem you'll find with perl is that its OO is really really bad. So if your thinking quick a dirty, think perl. If you want to make it big, with class libraries in perl you may find yourself tearing your hair out.

As far as Python goes, I can't stand that whitespace is important, thats just wrong. It is my fundemental right to write unreadable code. (Unless some one else is paying for it.)


Keep well,
SilverB
In trading you are only as smart as your dumbest mistake. - Ralph Vince
  • #12
  • Edited 7:50am Jun 10, 2006 7:42am | Edited 7:50am
The best programming language to use, and doen't matter for what purpose, is the one that you feel comfortable with.
Due to my deep UNIX SysAdmin roots I prefer perl . As much as I know Oanda provides API that is supported in perl, however they charge $500 per month for API trading. Forex Gain Capital provides all subscribers with XML based API (web services) which makes the language decision very flexible, but a friend of mine told me that support is terrible.
I never used none of them.
  • #13
  • Jun 10, 2006 9:47am Jun 10, 2006 9:47am
Quoting SliverB
, thats just wrong. It is my fundemental right to write unreadable code. (Unless some one else is paying for it.)


Keep well,
SilverB
LOL Roflmao
I was dirnking Pepsi when I read this and you made me snork so big that I blew it out my nose!
Nolite dormiens pungere ursum. -- Latan Proverb.
  • #14
  • Jun 12, 2006 1:16pm Jun 12, 2006 1:16pm
Thanks to all of you. I appretiate your answers.

Want to ask one more question. I want to test my strategy on hystory data and metatrader is not that good. I do not like data feeds for MT4. Is there any sources where I can get hystory data suitable for python or perl?
  • #15
  • Jun 12, 2006 1:40pm Jun 12, 2006 1:40pm
Quoting serhiy
Thanks to all of you. I appretiate your answers.

Want to ask one more question. I want to test my strategy on hystory data and metatrader is not that good. I do not like data feeds for MT4. Is there any sources where I can get hystory data suitable for python or perl?
When you say MT4 data is not good...you don't mean the actual feed...but you mean the data that gets saved to the MT4 database that you can export, right?
  • #16
  • Jun 12, 2006 1:49pm Jun 12, 2006 1:49pm
If I need to write a program and 90% of the function is string parsing, then I'll use perl. Everything else, I'll use python, because code that is actually legible by yourself and others, 2 months after you wrote it, is IMPORTANT.

Python is for people who actually care about code cleaniness..

I love python..
google:
  • #17
  • Jun 12, 2006 2:17pm Jun 12, 2006 2:17pm
Quoting twoblink
If I need to write a program and 90% of the function is string parsing, then I'll use perl. Everything else, I'll use python, because code that is actually legible by yourself and others, 2 months after you wrote it, is IMPORTANT.

Python is for people who actually care about code cleaniness..

I love python..
Python may be for that, but, personally, I care quite about code cleanliness quite a bit, as most of the code I put into production gets installed for years, so it's important that after not touching the code 10 months to a year later when an upgrade needs to go in, I have to jump right in.

Code, in my opinion, is what you make it. I'm quite certain one can easily write clear, concise, well documented code in other languages just as easily as someone can write nearly undiscernable code in Python.

I agree with the poster that said the language you choose is all about personal preferences. With hardware where it is now-a-days, program languages required for working with forex have very little advantage over each other.

It's good that you promote Python. Just don't short change other languages due to bias.
  • #18
  • Last Post: Jun 12, 2006 2:25pm Jun 12, 2006 2:25pm
Quoting mrmikal
When you say MT4 data is not good...you don't mean the actual feed...but you mean the data that gets saved to the MT4 database that you can export, right?
Right. And I do not like to back test strategy on MT4.
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