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  • Post #721
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  • Nov 20, 2007 7:13pm Nov 20, 2007 7:13pm
  •  Old_Not_Dead
  • Joined Nov 2007 | Status: Member | 110 Posts
Quoting TradeStar
Disliked
Feb,

I placed pending buy order few pips above the fractal (4 hours and daily only) , 4 out of 5 cases it actually came to that point my order got triggered and went right back down http://www.forexfactory.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Is this what you meant by 'sharks waiting' in your earlier posts?

I want to understand this better.

Am I suppose to wait until a close happens above the Fractal before entering rather than as soon as it clears the fractal. And never to use the pending order

Honestly, I can't thank you enough for strating this thread.

Thanks,
TradeStar
Ignored
I'm obviously not Feb but, seeing as I'm an opinionated old sod, I thought I'd add in my views on your question.

If you look back at all the "up fractals" for a period of time on a chart, you will no doubt find that a good proportion of those are breached by 5-25 ticks before price retraces again.

Essentially you are simply being a breakout trader if you take the trade based purely on a close above a fractal. Nothing wrong with that in itself but I have found over the years that the percentage of "false breakouts" have gradually increased to such a point that I wouldn't tend to take them on their own.

My big rule is to look at the overall context of the price action and what the market structure looks like up to that point in time. I'll try to explain that more explicitly in a second but first I should clarify that, for me, a candle that hasn't closed yet could end up being anything and I'd usually wait for the close.

The post you quoted from Feb had him saying that he would probably buy on the bearish bar in the EURAUD example. That is his way of getting in on the direction without paying premium prices. I would probably have waited until the completion of the next daily bar which was bullish and closed fairly strongly. He'd be in quicker and he'd get more profit for that extra risk but what we'd both have in common is that we'd be anticipating that the recent high of 1.6590 ish was going to be broken. Whereas, if you were to wait on it being broken, you'd be buying in at a lot higher price and risking being on the end of a false breakout.

For me, when a key level is broken I am alerted to the fact I might get in. I'd usually want to get in on a retracement or on an exceptionally bullish closed candle.

I'm probably not explaining this very well. What I'll do is annotate a chart and try to attach it as a picture is usually worth a thousand words.

Please forgive me for butting in on a question you've asked of someone else but hopefully this will be of some help to you as I know it can be disheartening to seemingly have a knack for getting in just as price reverses direction against you!
 
 
  • Post #722
  • Quote
  • Nov 20, 2007 7:25pm Nov 20, 2007 7:25pm
  •  TradeStar
  • | Joined Feb 2007 | Status: Member | 476 Posts
Quoting leighsww
Disliked
Are you using the attachment feature?

Read this following post --> http://www.forexfactory.com/showthre...nt#post1713993

If you are doing that, yet it's still only linking rather than showing the actual image, go ahead and do it anyway, and I'm sure when we click on the link, it'll open up for us so we can see it. Try it anyway and see what happens.
Ignored
Thank you dear Leighsww. I learned something. here is the chart. I sold Eur Chf at 1.6345 upon breaking the previous fractal, sure enough to see to go right back up.

I will post one other from GBP USD

Thanks
TradeStar
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge

Name: eurchf.gif
Size: 12 KB
Haste not to Enter AND Haste not to Exit !-TradeStar
 
 
  • Post #723
  • Quote
  • Nov 20, 2007 7:32pm Nov 20, 2007 7:32pm
  •  TradeStar
  • | Joined Feb 2007 | Status: Member | 476 Posts
Quoting Old_Not_Dead
Disliked
I'm obviously not Feb but, seeing as I'm an opinionated old sod, I thought I'd add in my views on your question.

If you look back at all the "up fractals" for a period of time on a chart, you will no doubt find that a good proportion of those are breached by 5-25 ticks before price retraces again.

Essentially you are simply being a breakout trader if you take the trade based purely on a close above a fractal. Nothing wrong with that in itself but I have found over the years that the percentage of "false breakouts" have gradually increased to such a point that I wouldn't tend to take them on their own.

My big rule is to look at the overall context of the price action and what the market structure looks like up to that point in time. I'll try to explain that more explicitly in a second but first I should clarify that, for me, a candle that hasn't closed yet could end up being anything and I'd usually wait for the close.

The post you quoted from Feb had him saying that he would probably buy on the bearish bar in the EURAUD example. That is his way of getting in on the direction without paying premium prices. I would probably have waited until the completion of the next daily bar which was bullish and closed fairly strongly. He'd be in quicker and he'd get more profit for that extra risk but what we'd both have in common is that we'd be anticipating that the recent high of 1.6590 ish was going to be broken. Whereas, if you were to wait on it being broken, you'd be buying in at a lot higher price and risking being on the end of a false breakout.

For me, when a key level is broken I am alerted to the fact I might get in. I'd usually want to get in on a retracement or on an exceptionally bullish closed candle.

I'm probably not explaining this very well. What I'll do is annotate a chart and try to attach it as a picture is usually worth a thousand words.

Please forgive me for butting in on a question you've asked of someone else but hopefully this will be of some help to you as I know it can be disheartening to seemingly have a knack for getting in just as price reverses direction against you!
Ignored
No not at all. don't be apologetic (did I spell this right?) It's a privilege to be taught by seniors like you. Thanks a ton and will wait for additional inputs, since it takes a while for me to get it.

I just posted the chart also. As you can see, I was on the direction of the trend and break of a fractal still goofed up.

Thanks again

TradeStar
Haste not to Enter AND Haste not to Exit !-TradeStar
 
 
  • Post #724
  • Quote
  • Nov 20, 2007 7:33pm Nov 20, 2007 7:33pm
  •  Old_Not_Dead
  • Joined Nov 2007 | Status: Member | 110 Posts
I'm hoping this works - first time posting an attachment!
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge

Name: euraud.jpg
Size: 511 KB
 
 
  • Post #725
  • Quote
  • Nov 20, 2007 7:38pm Nov 20, 2007 7:38pm
  •  Old_Not_Dead
  • Joined Nov 2007 | Status: Member | 110 Posts
Quoting TradeStar
Disliked
No not at all. don't be apologetic (did I spell this right?) It's a privilege to be taught by seniors like you. Thanks a ton and will wait for additional inputs, since it takes a while for me to get it.

I just posted the chart also. As you can see, I was on the direction of the trend and break of a fractal still goofed up.

Thanks again

TradeStar
Ignored
Ok, now I see the chart you were referring to. Does what I've said make sense in the context of that chart? In that example, the candle closed just a few ticks under the previous low. I'd want to see the next candle also close under that low and for it to be a solidly bearish candle (no long wick at the bottom of it).
 
 
  • Post #726
  • Quote
  • Nov 20, 2007 7:43pm Nov 20, 2007 7:43pm
  •  TradeStar
  • | Joined Feb 2007 | Status: Member | 476 Posts
Quoting Old_Not_Dead
Disliked
I'm hoping this works - first time posting an attachment!
Ignored
Wow, Great Job OND !!! Thanks a lot.

One more question on the picture though:

you have marked a candle saying "I'd be short from here". Could you please explain the reasoning for that. Why after the second bearish candle. What if that second candle happen to be bullish.

My sincere thanks again.

TradeStar
Haste not to Enter AND Haste not to Exit !-TradeStar
 
 
  • Post #727
  • Quote
  • Nov 20, 2007 7:53pm Nov 20, 2007 7:53pm
  •  TradeStar
  • | Joined Feb 2007 | Status: Member | 476 Posts
Quoting TradeStar
Disliked
Wow, Great Job OND !!! Thanks a lot.

One more question on the picture though:

you have marked a candle saying "I'd be short from here". Could you please explain the reasoning for that. Why after the second bearish candle. What if that second candle happen to be bullish.

My sincere thanks again.

TradeStar
Ignored
Sorry our posts crossed. I am assuming the second bearish candle confirms the downtrend and hence you get in, based on what you just said.

Thanks
TradeStar
Haste not to Enter AND Haste not to Exit !-TradeStar
 
 
  • Post #728
  • Quote
  • Nov 20, 2007 7:59pm Nov 20, 2007 7:59pm
  •  Old_Not_Dead
  • Joined Nov 2007 | Status: Member | 110 Posts
Quoting TradeStar
Disliked
Sorry our posts crossed. I am assuming the second bearish candle confirms the downtrend and hence you get in, based on what you just said.

Thanks
TradeStar
Ignored
You got it The first candle that caused the false breakout would show me there was good selling pressure and the next candle would confirm we were headed down.

Glad it helped!
 
 
  • Post #729
  • Quote
  • Nov 20, 2007 8:04pm Nov 20, 2007 8:04pm
  •  feb2865
  • | Commercial Member | Joined Jun 2006 | 1,578 Posts
OND

as a reference on post #721 - tradestar - I was referring to the second small bearish candle not the first red candle.

Your comment is alway welcome here. Very informative.

Anything new on E/U from your side???

EDIT: (I am joining Leighs club LOL) looking here for a play around 1.4750-1.4800 area. wishful thinking on a deeper correction.

Peace
Peace
 
 
  • Post #730
  • Quote
  • Nov 20, 2007 8:21pm Nov 20, 2007 8:21pm
  •  Old_Not_Dead
  • Joined Nov 2007 | Status: Member | 110 Posts
Quoting feb2865
Disliked
OND

as a reference on post #721 - tradestar - I was referring to the second small bearish candle not the first red candle.

Your comment is alway welcome here. Very informative.

Anything new on E/U from your side???

EDIT: (I am joining Leighs club LOL) looking here for a play around 1.4750-1.4800 area. wishful thinking on a deeper correction.

Peace
Ignored
Thanks for the clarification re #721 Feb - that makes sense ... I'm the one jumping in first with the risk

As for E/U - we really are sailing in uncharted waters now aren't we? I'm still not tempted to do anything as there is no value there right now. My best guess would be that a new base is built around 4770-4790 and that we see a retracement to that level before the next move shows itself.

Unfortunately I'm out on an excursion tomorrow and won't be taking my laptop. It'll be interesting to see what the picture looks like when I return home though.

I have a feeling that we're heading into a Thanksgiving snoozefest and I'll probably not be tempted by much until next week now.
 
 
  • Post #731
  • Quote
  • Nov 20, 2007 10:26pm Nov 20, 2007 10:26pm
  •  Scooter
  • | Joined May 2004 | Status: Member | 64 Posts
Quoting Old_Not_Dead
Disliked
...hopefully this will be of some help to you as I know it can be disheartening to seemingly have a knack for getting in just as price reverses direction against you!
Ignored
I was an expert in buying at the top and selling at the bottom! Hopefully I will change that and learn from the generosity and wisdom of our experienced traders.

I did learn that I need to know what all of my standing orders are...I forgot I had a buy on the EU and next thing I know I'm up 180 pips! Now what? Sell or Hold? LOL
Still haven't found what I'm looking for...
 
 
  • Post #732
  • Quote
  • Nov 20, 2007 11:03pm Nov 20, 2007 11:03pm
  •  Green_David
  • | Joined Nov 2007 | Status: Big trend, big money | 786 Posts
Quoting Old_Not_Dead
Disliked
Thanks for the clarification re #721 Feb - that makes sense ... I'm the one jumping in first with the risk

As for E/U - we really are sailing in uncharted waters now aren't we? I'm still not tempted to do anything as there is no value there right now. My best guess would be that a new base is built around 4770-4790 and that we see a retracement to that level before the next move shows itself.

Unfortunately I'm out on an excursion tomorrow and won't be taking my laptop. It'll be interesting to see what the picture looks like when I return home though.

I have a feeling that we're heading into a Thanksgiving snoozefest and I'll probably not be tempted by much until next week now.
Ignored
Welcome, friend OND. Your descriptions on your E/J trades and false break-out are great!


By the way, how do you deal with false break-outs? In your E/J trade, the S/L is more than 1%, I assume the leverage you used is less than 10 times?

Thank you very much.
 
 
  • Post #733
  • Quote
  • Nov 21, 2007 1:14am Nov 21, 2007 1:14am
  •  iandekoker
  • | Joined Apr 2007 | Status: Member | 515 Posts
Ok so gbp/usd broke thru some serious resistance this week. And i am happy that the correction has taken place. I will continue to play the v-formations but i will also place one longer term trade. And my profit target on that trade would be the monthly R3 which is at 2.1573. Obviously the price wont shoot up from current levels straight to 2.1573. There will be rectracements along the way.

There are only two things that i will keep my eye on. The first is that we got some bad news recently out of the UK

The other is good news from the USA.

That would impact this move up.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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Name: gbp usd.gif
Size: 14 KB
 
 
  • Post #734
  • Quote
  • Nov 21, 2007 1:46am Nov 21, 2007 1:46am
  •  Mr Trend
  • Joined Apr 2006 | Status: Mmmm pips. | 1,418 Posts
Quoting feb2865
Disliked
EDIT: (I am joining Leighs club LOL) looking here for a play around 1.4750-1.4800 area. wishful thinking on a deeper correction.
Ignored
I'm actually looking for something around 4700, but I doubt we'll get there... that would be a bounce off of the prior TL...
Mr. Trend
 
 
  • Post #735
  • Quote
  • Nov 21, 2007 1:48am Nov 21, 2007 1:48am
  •  Mr Trend
  • Joined Apr 2006 | Status: Mmmm pips. | 1,418 Posts
Feb / OND... thought you guys might like this setup on gold futures...

http://www.forexfactory.com/showpost...4&postcount=64
Mr. Trend
 
 
  • Post #736
  • Quote
  • Edited 2:08am Nov 21, 2007 1:57am | Edited 2:08am
  •  bill77
  • | Joined Jul 2007 | Status: koj ve eba | 372 Posts
Hello everyone, sory for the newbie question but here we go. trying to understand the v candle formation and entry. i entered at the begining of todays new day candle on the gbp/usd (see chart below) my thinking was yesturday candle closed above the last bear candles high. is this the corect theory?

Edit, sory i meant a trend continuation after the retrace. the chart below does not show a perfect v
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge

Name: g.gif
Size: 15 KB
 
 
  • Post #737
  • Quote
  • Nov 21, 2007 3:06am Nov 21, 2007 3:06am
  •  iandekoker
  • | Joined Apr 2007 | Status: Member | 515 Posts
yes that is correct
 
 
  • Post #738
  • Quote
  • Nov 21, 2007 3:07am Nov 21, 2007 3:07am
  •  iandekoker
  • | Joined Apr 2007 | Status: Member | 515 Posts
Quoting bill77
Disliked
Hello everyone, sory for the newbie question but here we go. trying to understand the v candle formation and entry. i entered at the begining of todays new day candle on the gbp/usd (see chart below) my thinking was yesturday candle closed above the last bear candles high. is this the corect theory?

Edit, sory i meant a trend continuation after the retrace. the chart below does not show a perfect v
Ignored
sorry. Yes that is correct.
 
 
  • Post #739
  • Quote
  • Nov 21, 2007 3:12am Nov 21, 2007 3:12am
  •  iandekoker
  • | Joined Apr 2007 | Status: Member | 515 Posts
Right now we are testing the monthly pivot point. If 15 min candle closes under monthly pivot point then i would look to go short and target 2.0598-2.0585.

If price bounches off monthly pivot and close above i would see it as good long oppertunity.

Let's see what happens
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge

Name: gbp usd.gif
Size: 12 KB
 
 
  • Post #740
  • Quote
  • Nov 21, 2007 3:58am Nov 21, 2007 3:58am
  •  Four Kids
  • | Joined May 2007 | Status: Member | 1,332 Posts
Hi all. feb this is a fantastic and truely enlightening thread.

I have taken 3 trades as per my understanding of what you are teaching us.

On the retrace of the third candle of the V formation (Mon 19th) I went long EA at 1.6438 same for EN at 1.9300 and GU (Tue 20th) at 2.0612. Currently up over 600 pips.

feb I would like to thank you for showing me the way. In the last year I have lost a lot of money in fx. I have now removed all the bs from my charts, and feel a lot better for it. If I have made a mistake in the above trades, please let me know.Thanks.
 
 
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