Trading Career Advice - Working Full-Time and Trading

Hi,

Any expert traders advice would be appreciated.

I have been trading for about a year now with losses. I am currently self-employed with a low income with pressure from friends and family to abandon trading and go back to the rat race, which I am edging closer and closer I feel.

I made losses and until the last couple of months I decided to stop trading and watch price action daily.

I feel 60% of the way to success I have made winning trades but more losing trades nothing to say I would make a steady income from it and now I feel I will have to invest more money for tools and education maybe 1 on 1 training by an expert to take me to the next level as self-learning is getting difficult with an overload of info on the internet.

My question is will my trading suffer if I take on full time employment working 40-50 hours per week and trading on daily timeframes I guess it would take longer for my trading business to become profitable by going down this route rather than concentrating fully or most of my time on my trading learning price action to avoid going the longer route. Confused. Anyone been in this position.

I highly doubt your job would cover the London-US sessions entirely.

I live in asia and for a long time i used to scalp after work just when the US session started. Im sure you will be able to trade before or after your working hours. However like many people, i have yet to find any consistent success from day-trading.

Just like you, i have been self-employed for the past 5 months and my business is not taking off. So i have no choice but to look for a full-time job and am actually looking forward to start work so that i can keep myself away from the computer to day-trade which has often caused me losses.

You see, in the past 5 months, i have been trying various strategies that ive come up. Thus far, i have actually found swing trading to be the least intensive. You don't NEED to look at the quotes every second because your stops and profit target levels are often far enough that they are unlikely to get triggered anytime soon(Stops are usually around 50 -80 pips away for Eur/Usd with profit levels atleast 100pips+). I find that i can go read a book, go out for a movie, go drinking with friends for the night and not feel any real need to check on the market. A random rumour or news report is unlikely to take out my stop and if my stop is taken out, it is likely that the market is going to continue going much further. Ofcourse that does not mean that i do not whip out my phone and take a look at prices once inawhile when its convenient to, but its usually more out of curiosity than a need to react to the market.

As for profitability, i find that trading from 4hrs/daily charts presents fewer trades. Atm im finding trades once a week on average. While this may sound like a disadvantage, ive found it to be extremely advantageous for me. I have found that on the higher tfs, i can aim for a risk:reward of 1:1.5 to 1:3. And because i look at prices much less often(most of the time the market fluctuates 10-20 pips in a range so there is less excitment to check on prices every 15mins), i also end up not trailing my stop or taking profits too early. Even at a leverage of 10x, a 100pip move for winning trades is quite common which nets me about 10%. Sometimes if i see momentum in the move, i move my target further out and have been able to capture 15% at times. If i could end a month with net winnings of 3 trades (30%), that is more than enough to compound a small account.

Id just like to clear up that im not saying that daytrading/scalping cannot be profitable, but atleast for me, ive found that by swing trading, im much less prone to overtrade, revenge trade and more likely to stick to my rules. So far it seems to be a better fit for me and looks like it could work out for the long run, maybe it could be an option for you.

You sir, need a plan. It all falls down to why you trade - is it a career? An income source? A dabble? Trading full time is something you don't stumble into - you need to be well capitalised or trading OPM.

This isn't to pour water on your ambitions but you need to know why you're trading first before you can set about ramping it up in time or money. If you allow it to drift according to your income and other needs, it'll likely amount to nothing. Know what you want, why you want it, then figure out how you're going to go and get it.

Totally agree with the guy above re swing trading. The shorter the timeframe, the harder it becomes and the better you have to be. Natural really - the spread has a bigger impact, and the profits can be exponentially higher, so the competition's far fiercer.

As for training, J16 is about it as far as I can see (cue hopeless trading edookators piping up any minute now). I was part of Jacko-the 2-bit shill who did a runner with a load of money years back and bizarrely it worked out very well but that aside, J16 seems trustworthy and crucially he's turned out a few successes. For non-discretionary stuff though you need to be 100% self-reliant.

I'd say good luck, but really, good planning

Great advice guys,

Pain - I agree that swing trading with the higher timeframes is less intense and more profitable, however I feel with the lower timeframes I can see how this market flows I can learn quicker imo. The majority of people say stay away from shorter timeframes I have found in my experience I have learned so much more from shorter timeframes than longer timeframes on marker order flow and structure levels. I would already define myself as a swing trader/day trader.


triphop - Yes, I have a plan which has been redefined a few times to make it simpler as somehow people have issues with having more than 2 pages of a plan.

Main reason I am trading is not just for the money. I am so eager to know how the market flows and how I can be on the right side and also know the other side. How it all works and I feel like I know how it works but trade management and execution are difficult traits to master imo which is holding me back.

I believe with what I have experience the shorter and longer timeframes are equal in importance as well as difficulty many will differ but that’s why we have a market.

I think the issues which are holding me back is I have a small account so my stop loss levels could be bigger to give me more chance imo also I am undercapitalized for tools, software and a top coach which costs thousands which I am not prepared mentally or financially to invest in although many say they self-learn and experience = success I am beginning to doubt that after 1 years or trading.

Thanks.

I'm doing OK looking at Daily and Weekly charts and adjusting positions for about an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening, plus staying current with news and things throughout the day. But that's after spending 3+ years trying to Day Trade, which I have yet to able to do consistently well, but from which I learned a lot about price behavior. Without that Day Trading experience I would have bought some software to record the markets and use it to practice nights and weekends.

What works for me is to enter at the start of the new day (after New York close) with a generous stoploss and a modest position size. Profits come from Pip Gain, not Leverage. I generally don't look at charts during the day or at night, and while trading is certainly not a hobby for me, it's low-maintenance enough so that I'm free to run a part-time business and otherwise enjoy life.

Rob

whatever our professions, we need to diversify our source of income

When we involve in trading it's mean business.Not an investment.
Business can multiply your money in short time if you find the way, but investment can give you only return on low rate.
One thing that make love to trade and that force me to do more recearch on it, is that by trading i have a chance to double my money every day. non like any other business . it is worthy to learn for.
We have to learn , ether from some one or by ourself .
with the internet era , we can get infomation easily and learn from it, but learning need a skill and talent ,more than that for good trader we need to do more research . Reseach need time and patient. And I have done that.
For more than 4 years reseach to find suitable indicators for trading using several time frame to determine short term and long term trend and how to enter into market and when is the best time trade.
I keep motivating my self and my believe , It is time to harvest to what I have sow , just about the time we'll see the fruit to be harvested.
Don't lose your way , for each pasingg days . We came so far , don't throw it away. live believing , dreams are for living . Wonder are waiting to start. Live your story, faith hope and glory.
Finally just believe in yourself and in God , and make sure that you are on the right track. GBU

I had so much pressure from family and friends to get a "real job" (whatever the fuck that means, like trading isnt a real job) and I ignored them. I have never regretted anything.....

Here is the thing, trading takes time and research along with strategy development that does in fact consume quite a lot of time. Remember, the market is always changing, so you need to adjust accordingly, frequently. When I was in undergrad I was literally sleeping 3 hrs a day and it was very hard on my mind and body, trading and school at the same time. Now I can devote all my time and energy to trading as I feel necessary. Bottom line is that trading takes a lotta time and lotta energy and while it is doable, it is very hard to mix trading and any other fulltime activity and be successful at both

double your money every day?! or lose your money twice as fast?!

I recommend really studying more on how price moves and how support and resistance works. Also really taking time into WHY price moves based on whatever your analysis. having patience to find a good trade takes skill and not many people have that skill.

Also taking all the basic knowledge youve learned so far and applying that knowledge to your plan and trades.

Good money management and psychology of trading are two things that you MUST have a grasp of and applying them is second which is also a hard task.

Stop chasing the loser and have some patience until you see multiple things line up in your favor.

Ok you've had three great trades in a row.. but why is that any reason to get trigger happy and lose all that profit in three stupid trades.

This pretty much says all that needs to be said. Ask a surgeon if he has time to master another profession in his spare time.... better yet, ask micheal jordan how easy it is to play baseball in your spare time.

There are always exceptions to the rule, but for the most part to be successful at your given profession usually means you put in more time and effort than the next guy. Trading is no different than surgery, basketball or insurance sales. The best are going to be the ones that dedicate the time and energy to be the best.

I had a business before I started trading. In addition I owned about half a dozen rental properties. I found that when I was doing well with the trading, my business suffered, and when I was doing well with the business, my trading suffered. I never put in the time to be successful at real estate so I don't even know why I am mentioning it???

I am not religious, but my father was a minister, so I know religious concepts well, and there is a parable by Jesus that basically says it is impossible to serve two masters.

If you want to trade for a living - then devote yourself to it and realize that the best at any field put in years to master their trade (not to mention continuing education).

Make a decision and live with it.

I'm a lot more successful the less I watch my trades (but still an amateur).

When I make a plan over the weekend with entry and target already determined, it's more often than not fairly accurate.

When I watch P/A and alter my plan, I fail and exit early or at a loss. So, if you have that kind of problem, getting a job would probably be good for you

Sometimes we are our own worst enemy, I'll be joining the rat race and working with a set-and-forget mentality.

Quick answer: you are not going to make a living trading. Not in the near term and probably not ever. You should develop some skills, get education and credentials, etc so that you can make a living working a straight job.

Now, if you still would like to try trading after you are set up with a reliable livelihood, then you can find many ways to trade that do not interfere too much with your work/home life. For instance, if you want to daytrade you could scalp around the NY close or the Tokyo open. The 2 hours or so before the LO often have some tradable PA. Or you might find ways to swing trade that would further free you from having to put in long hours of screen time.

So, once you have that job and you are covering your expenses and putting some savings away (hopefully) and if you still think you would like to trade for a living, try this:

Open a live account with an amount of money that you can afford to lose - say, at most, a week's pay. Then start trading. Try different strategies, different instruments. If you consistently lose money or break even, then you can not trade for a living. (Forgive me for belaboring the obvious.) Only after you are able to make consistent monthly gains should you even entertain the possibility of making a living trading. Trade for a couple years and if you have say 20/24 winning months then you are doing great.

Then look over those results and see what your average monthly returns were. Then do a little grade-school math. If you averaged 10% monthly account gains, for instance, and you might (were you trading for a living) need to withdraw $5,000 a month from your trading account to meet expenses and set asides for taxes, etc, then you might see you'd need to be trading from a $50,000 account in order to make a go of it.

Wait, let's double that, because you want to be able to grow your account when you are winning, and you need a buffer to cover your losing streaks. Anyway, anytime anyone asks me what minimum account size it might take to trade for a living (in the US) I tell them $100k. And bigger is better.

Most traders fail because they are undercapitalized. (Hmm, maybe better said - most undercapitalized traders fail.) ......I hope the above provides some useful perspective.

I agree with The Fool's comment in that trading for a living is not something that can be done with inexperience AND insufficient capital. There's just no substitute for experience.

this is quite interesting because 10% is an easy gain considering if you can make pips and keep pips. I know there's plenty more traders that are making alot more than 10% safely with the rule of thumb 2% per trade also taking into consideration risk to reward ratios.

The possibilities are endless the only person stopping you from being successful is yourself

no offense but that's the road to ruin, right there. You're better off thinking about how to constrain and control your losses, what will you do when you are losing, etc, than running up your imaginary projected gains....

If you are losing go back to the drawing board. Paper trade. No sense to keep losing money. Analyze your mistakes and learn from them. Once you have a plan that you are confident with then go for it.

I'm not saying that I'm aiming to gain a certain percentage. I control my risk before I take a trade.. a 60% probability with a system that has a 1:2 RR can be very profitable.. I take what the market will give me but if I lose 2% I dont go bat shit and try and trade to make up for it just to close out the month at 10%.. If I'm in the red for the month then I should be even more cautious before taking a trade rather than getting an itchy finger.

Like everyone knows proffessional traders manage risk rather than look for gains... but there really is a huge difference when size of capital comes into play. 2% on a 50,000 account is alot more than 2% on a 10,000 dollar account

if the market doesnt show it's cards then I don't trade

I should've said - not a trading plan. A plan to get you from A to B. You need skills and capital to trade full time, you just need to figure out how you're going to get them. +1 to what The Fool wrote above. The small account, tools, software all that are not reasons why you won't trade full time, they're barriers to entry. Every industry has them, you just have to figure out if the effort required to scale them is worth what's on the other side.

Re the timescales its about who's in charge. Price moves more to the whims of TA traders over longer timeframes because of their sheer numbers and staying power. But intraday, these same techniques provide liquidity for those who need it. If you've found patterns consistent with both groups that work equally well, then more power to you. But there's a whole industry devoted to misattribution of cause/effect so if you fall for it, you wouldn't be the first.

You must be a day trader or something. I find I trade much better when i'm not sitting at my computer all day watching charts and going on useless forums lol!

In my first year of trading I did a couple months where i sat in front of my computer full time watching charts, and other trader stuff. I would get impatient, impulsive and essentially failed pretty hard, i was going to school part time.

Now I work full time I enjoy having a real job stable income and best of all serenity. It made it so i Dont think about trading all the time, no pressure and i became very patient which is key it also allowed me to trade on longer time frames im talking weeks here. Having a real job isn't all that bad you get to meet people, exercise and enjoy other aspects of life.

And I don't see why it would affect your trading unless your a day trader, trading Dojis on a one hour chart, just go get a superphone i recommend Android 4.0, you can place your orders right from your phone that's what i do.

Heck even if I made millions trading i'd still work a Job, you gotta enjoy the different things in life besides sit in front of your computer for 8 hours a day staring at charts and drinking cola, and go do some cardio it will help with your trading trust me.

I work fulltime and have no intention of giving up my day job. The thought of being a professional trader spending countless hours in front of the screen to me is not all appealing. Being in Australia, my trading window is limited to the London open which is not a bad period which I limit to 3-4 hours depending how tired I am or how well or bad I am doing.

I only trade the cable on the H1 using the M1 for exits. If you cannot make money from just one currency pair, I seriously question your ability to truly understand the behaviour of 2 or more pairs at the same time. Keep it simple.