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The Competitive Edge in Trading

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  • First Post: Edited at 7:33pm Jun 17, 2011 2:30pm | Edited at 7:33pm
  •  MuddBuddha
  • Joined May 2005 | Status: Member | 945 Posts
*“I’ve never had a losing trade. I’ve only ever ran out of margin.”

Over the years of trading, learning, and mentoring other traders I’ve come across traders who are naturally gifted and there was no doubt that they would succeed, while others were obviously bound to fail often time and time again. Some can learn new techniques and adapt fairly quickly while others refuse to let go of preconceived paradigms that block them from realizing vital changes in market conditions.

The key differences are almost always in the personality of the trader with traits that are changeable through self denial of the tendencies that cause failure as well as discipline of method.

I’d like to explore some of these differences starting with demo (virtual) trading.

There have been numerous discussions in this forum with traders on both sides of the fence pushing for the pros and cons of demo trading.
Some hold that key elements of successful trading techniques can and should be refined in demo trading before risking any personal funds.
Others hold that demo trading does very little to mentally prepare the trader for real life conditions and therefore only serve to familiarize the trader with the platform.

What causes demo traders to fail to transition to real accounts?
If we look deep enough, we can pinpoint key psychological issues that prove to be the catalyst of failure in this area:

The “virtual” funds have no mental and financial bearing on the demo trader.
· They cannot pull these funds from the account if needed to sustain themselves.
· If and when they margin call the account, they can easily reset or sign up for another account.
· They have invested no time in obtaining these funds through physical labor.

They are directionally biased.
· They feel comfortable taking positions in one direction and often justify their undying belief that it has to happen by fundamentals they don’t really understand.
· They enter opposing positions to their paradigm belief with fear and trepidation often taking profits too soon or settings protective stops too close as a result.

They don’t believe in their own ability to transition to real trading AND they fear failure and loss.
· Deep down they doubt their own ability under fire and will often hide this by claiming that price feeds for demo accounts is skewed to favor “blind luck”.

Before going any further, let’s examine the bullet points:

The “virtual” funds have no mental and financial bearing on the demo trader.

They have immediately recognized this as “fake” trading therefore it does little to promote them to their end goal: getting rich. They don’t approach demo trading as a real exercise of developing both skill and mental conditioning.

In football (American), players spend an enormous amount of time in practice.
Yet not one game has ever been won during practice. Or has it?

The Dictionary is the only place that success comes before work. Hard work is the price we must pay for success. I think you can accomplish anything if you're willing to pay the price.

Players run drills over and over again meticulously practicing every detail of a run route; learning the juke (spin move) in each direction to offset the opponent. They learn and practice where and when they should expect the ball to either be handed to them or to expect it to be thrown to them. They know full well that they will not be the recipient each time a play is called, but nonetheless they are expected to run the play exactly as practiced and with the determination and enthusiasm that they are the only intended receiver.

When a trader consigns themselves to the mental attitude that because “virtual” funds are no more real than dollar bills drawn on construction paper, they have immediately and with major consequence aligned themselves with failure. Because they have no ability to sustain life or advance wealth, it’s easy to hit the reset and start over.

In like, any football player who disregards practice as pointless because his skills are better refined in the real game and resists the often grueling repetition of running drills is not playing for the team, but only for himself.

In relation to the trader, a large percentage are trading with one sole purpose, to get rich as quickly as possible. This is flat out delusional greed that serves only to bankrupt the trader both financially and mentally. Successful trading means setting realistic and rational goals.

“The quality of a person's life is in direct proportion to their commitment to excellence, regardless of their chosen field of endeavor.”

(Work + Time) = (Success + Perseverance) = Wealth

The order of this equation is not reversible in any fashion.

“Leaders aren't born they are made. And they are made just like anything else, through hard work. And that's the price we'll have to pay to achieve that goal, or any goal.”

“Once you agree upon the price you and your family must pay for success, it enables you to ignore the minor hurts, the opponent's pressure, and the temporary failures.”

The second section dealing with demo trading:

They are directionally biased.

This is something that very few traders are aware of. They automatically assume that once you learn to trade that taking a SHORT is just as easy as taking a LONG. For the few who already have the mental discipline and skill, this is very true. Whereas for those who don’t, going “against the grain” of their mental bias is often an event they liken to mental torture.

If they are mentally biased toward LONG positions and they actively trade the EUR/USD, they will often cite reasons why they insist on LONGING perceived bottoms repeatedly while side stepping the enormous wealth available while trading with the trend due to that bias. They will pull headlines from any website or currency analyst that immediately fits their paradigm and puts at ease the mental anguish of denying their obvious shortcomings.

“It's easy to have faith in yourself and have discipline when you're a winner, when you're number one. What you got to have is faith and discipline when you're not a winner.”

Being directionally biased often leads to placing opposing position STOPS too close, not allowing enough room for price to move before being hit. Often they will take profit immediately once positive because they fear that at any moment, the demon haunting them caused by their own directional bias will suddenly appear and they will lose.

They will often quote, “No one ever went broke from taking profit.”, while realistically and historically the opposite is true. You can go broke by taking profit too soon just as easily as you can by not using STOPS altogether.[/font]

It has similar symptoms to traders who have a strong fear of failure.

“The real glory is being knocked to your knees and then coming back. That's real glory. That's the essence of it.”

Fear. We say the word so often we lose the impact is has on us.

Fear in relation to trading is in direct relation to pride. We fear losing because we fear loss. We gloat and boast of our successes, but rarely admit to our losses.
Fear can manifest from a sense of preservation. Not only of life, but of perception by others.

The most highly admired traders often suffer from a sense of perception preservation. Destroying that perception would be akin to immediately being labeled a failure. Being viewed as a success, however, feeds our ego and pride and hastens our likelihood to hide our failures the next time around.
Granted we can’t obviously stereotype all highly regarded traders as fitting into this peg, but there are certainly those who do.

Fear of lose is indicative of attachment to the monetary value of the money being traded. In trading, you must stay impartial to the monetary value of money otherwise it will cloud your judgment and cause poor trade performance.

Fear is an emotion that if allowed to fester, will birth greed. Greed will birth more fear and then the trader is defeated wholly.

“Success demands singleness of purpose.”

Singleness of purpose. This statement implies that emotion and attachment from the monetary value degrades purpose. The successful traders mind is concerned with one purpose: consistent growth and the preservation of capital.

“Confidence is contagious. So is lack of confidence.”

When a football team enters the field of play, each and every player has been mentally prepped by the coaching staff and each other to believe that the game is already won even before the coin toss.

No successful foot ball team has ever walked on the field admitting the possibility of defeat.

Why as traders are we any different?

You must believe that with each trade, you will be successful. Belief is a fleeting mistress. She can empower you or leave you feeling helpless in her absence. She retreats from us at the slightest hint of doubt.

I will say this much honestly. If you cannot empower yourself through belief in your ability, then you should not be trading. And by ability, I don’t merely mean the ability to trade. Ability applies to self control, self denial, confidence, humility, reason, and calm.

You should plan each trade with confidence while maintaining a reverent humility before this beast that is the currency market.

If you are not successful with the trade, then make the trade a learning experience. Don’t rush into another trade before you have examined the play by play to determine where weakness is hiding.

-What did I do wrong? Analysis? Entry? Stop Level?
-Was the market not in the proper state to enter a trade?
-Did I violate my own rules in taking this trade?
-Did I underestimate my leverage Vs. the market volatility?

Successive loses cannot be explained by market noise or volatile fundamentals. At some point the blame for failure needs to rest on the shoulders of the only person responsible: the trader.

“Once you learn to quit, it becomes a habit.”

It’s hard to admit fault and responsibility. Especially if you’ve enjoyed a string of successful trades by skill or just by dumb luck. We’ll quickly blame the market, blame the broker, blame the “lagging” indicators for not allowing us to succeed.

Some are so adapted to losing that it comes as a complete shock when they do win. It causes them to become overjoyed and celebrate every small victory.
The trader does not accept defeat. He recognizes it and learns from it when it comes, but it should never be your constant companion. He stays guarded against it through diligence and self denial of the tendencies that feed defeat. A well fed enemy is a hard enemy to do battle against.

“Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a loser.”


If you opened a trading account assuming that the market was obligated to treat you fairly, then you bought into a dream that doesn’t exist. From the start of your first trading day till the end of time the market is stacked against you to succeed.

But where do we get the idea that the market is fair? What makes us think that trading is an easy endeavor that brings success and leisure?

It’s true that it is peddled by numerous websites claiming easy profits and life of luxury and leisure. And for a few hundred dollars you can buy into this market and start making money today!

While there are cases of people who have made fast, easy money and become rich according to a recent CNBC article that number is less than .09% of the total wealth of the country.
The other 99.01% earned their wealth through hard work and discipline. They created something you bought, they traded something you bought, and they grew something you bought.

If Bill Gates had believed IBM’s comment in the early 1980’s that PC’s would never be needed by home users, then he would have never needed to market the Windows operating system.

Fortunately for him, his belief in his ability to create a product that people would want to buy was stronger than his fear that IBM was correct.

Earlier in this post, I mentioned those that I have met that I could immediately see the ability to succeed in. These people are highly motivated and have a strong competitive spirit that drives them. They may not succeed immediately and they may suffer loss along the way, but as long as that strong fire burns in their gut, I honestly would place a wager in their favor. I’ve vouched for many of these even while they were still “green” in the trade because of that fire burning deep down. And several have proven me right by becoming well respected members of this forum.

I hope you have enjoyed this first post and take away from it the conviction of excellence. Success and failure rest solely on you and no one else. Diligence in learning, diligence in practice, and diligence in execution are vital to success.

Examine why you want to trade. Take away the greed and the laziness that accompany most descriptions. If you merely want wealth and a life of leisure, you may stand better odds spending your money on lottery tickets.

The trader is a warrior.

He fights the battle because he loves the competition. He loves that the odds are against him; for when they are, the better to demonstrate his skill and self control. The trader knows what he wants - Success.

With that, all the wealth in the World is contained.

What do you want?

“I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - Victorious.”

*Adapted from Vince Lombardi’s quote, “The Green Bay Packers have never lost a game. They’ve only ever ran out of time.”

ALL QUOTES BY VINCE LOMBARDI
Capital Preservation is key to long term wealth accumulation
  • Post #2
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  • Jun 17, 2011 2:35pm Jun 17, 2011 2:35pm
  •  Troikaone1
  • | Joined Dec 2008 | Status: Stay Focused | 501 Posts
Nothing works in your first 4 to 5 years of trading FX; including demo trading. Demo trading simply delays the inevitable.....losing consistently.
  • Post #3
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  • Jun 17, 2011 5:08pm Jun 17, 2011 5:08pm
  •  mr.marketz
  • | Joined May 2006 | Status: Member | 397 Posts
Quoting MuddBuddha
Disliked
*“I’ve never had a losing trade. I’ve only ever ran out of margin.”

[font=Calibri][size=4]Over the years of trading, learning, and mentoring other traders I’ve come across traders who are naturally gifted and there was no doubt that they would succeed, while others were obviously bound to fail often time and time again. Some can learn new techniques and adapt fairly quickly while others refuse to let go of preconceived paradigms that block them from realizing vital changes in market...
Ignored
That's a beautifully written piece, Mudd... pure poetry.
  • Post #4
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  • Jun 17, 2011 6:07pm Jun 17, 2011 6:07pm
  •  hanover
  • Joined Sep 2006 | Status: ... | 8,081 Posts
Mudd, congrats on a great and inspirational post; and very well articulated. (IMO).

You're right, there have been dozens of threads over the years discussing the merits (or otherwise) of demo, and the differences between demo and live.

Quoting MuddBuddha
Disliked
What causes demo traders to fail to transition to real accounts? If we look deep enough, we can pinpoint key psychological issues that prove to be the catalyst of failure in this area:
Ignored
I don't disagree with you, but I'd like to add something that IMO is less obvious than psychology: namely, statistical validity. It's my guess that many traders blow out simply because (say) 3 months of profit in demo proves very little statistically. If they continued to trade for another 12 months in demo, many of them would end up in loss overall. It's very easy to be "fooled by randomness".

David
  • Post #5
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  • Jun 17, 2011 7:00pm Jun 17, 2011 7:00pm
  •  MuddBuddha
  • Joined May 2005 | Status: Member | 945 Posts
Quoting mr.marketz
Disliked
That's a beautifully written piece, Mudd... pure poetry.
Ignored
Thanks, marketz!

I really appreciate that you think so.

I've been thinking about this for some while and it seemed like the right time to put it down into black and white.
Capital Preservation is key to long term wealth accumulation
  • Post #6
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  • Jun 17, 2011 7:05pm Jun 17, 2011 7:05pm
  •  Forexable
  • | Additional Username | Joined Jun 2011 | 29 Posts
Quoting MuddBuddha
Disliked
*“I’ve never had a losing trade. I’ve only ever ran out of margin.”

[font=Calibri][size=4]Over the years of trading, learning, and mentoring other traders I’ve come across traders who are naturally gifted and there was no doubt that they would succeed, while others were obviously bound to fail often time and time again. Some can learn new techniques and adapt fairly quickly while others refuse to let go of preconceived paradigms that block them from realizing vital changes in market...
Ignored
Thats a fine article. Well done.
  • Post #7
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  • Jun 17, 2011 7:10pm Jun 17, 2011 7:10pm
  •  Craig
  • Joined Feb 2006 | Status: Blah blah blah | 1,410 Posts
Quoting hanover
Disliked
It's my guess that many traders blow out simply because (say) 3 months of profit in demo proves very little statistically. If they continued to trade for another 12 months in demo, many of them would end up in loss overall. It's very easy to be "fooled by randomness".
Ignored
Nailed.
The breaking of a wave cannot explain the whole sea.
  • Post #8
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  • Jun 17, 2011 7:10pm Jun 17, 2011 7:10pm
  •  MuddBuddha
  • Joined May 2005 | Status: Member | 945 Posts
David, thanks for the post and the kind words.

You make an excellent point that I hadn't considered till you pointed it out, and I believe you to be right.

My first large account was a $10k account with FX Solutions back in 2006. At that time I was trading a grid system (yes, really. I know what you're thinking.) and it was working extremely well. I had gained 70% on account balance within three months. (Note: Balance and not equity as I was holding negative positions as well as positive.)

At this point, I had convinced myself I knew all there was to this market and had mastered it. Then in September of 2006, the EUR/USD broke free from a very tight range it had been in for four months consecutively and blew north; taking my grid with it.

$17,450 went down to $9,800 at which point I panicked and pulled my money out. Granted I was only really down $200 from deposit, but the mere thought that the market had taken quicker than it had given put the fear of g*d in me.

It also made me yet another statistical casualty that find trading all too easy when in a predictable range.

Like they say, the one that gets you - you never hear coming.


Quoting hanover
Disliked
Mudd, congrats on a great and inspirational post; and very well articulated. (IMO).

You're right, there have been dozens of threads over the years discussing the merits (or otherwise) of demo, and the differences between demo and live.



I don't disagree with you, but I'd like to add something that IMO is less obvious than psychology: namely, statistical validity. It's my guess that many traders blow out simply because (say) 3 months of profit in demo proves very little statistically. If they continued to trade for another 12 months in demo,...
Ignored
Capital Preservation is key to long term wealth accumulation
  • Post #9
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  • Jun 17, 2011 7:35pm Jun 17, 2011 7:35pm
  •  xXTrizzleXx
  • Joined Aug 2010 | Status: Information is King | 497 Posts
Hey MuddBuddha,

I always enjoy contributions from more experienced members. Some thoughts:

Quoting MuddBuddha
Disliked
They don’t approach demo trading as a real exercise of developing both skill and mental conditioning.
Ignored

A very important statement here which I strongly agree with. If one cannot have the discipline to approach demo trading as a serious exercise, then it's almost a certainy that uncertainties will crop up when you transition over to a live account.

Quote
Disliked
In relation to the trader, a large percentage are trading with one sole purpose, to get rich as quickly as possible. This is flat out delusional greed that serves only to bankrupt the trader both financially and mentally. Successful trading means setting realistic and rational goals.
Initially, I began with this mindset as well, but it has slowly shifted to simply trading to trade well, with the market rewarding me for my analysis. I do not however regret the manner in which I initially approached things, because it piqued a deep interest I never knew I had.

Quote
Disliked
They will often quote, “No one ever went broke from taking profit.”, while realistically and historically the opposite is true.
I think that here at Forex Factory, we should change this quote to:
"No one ever went broke from making a profit." This would solve a lot of conundrums!

Quote
Disliked
Fear in relation to trading is in direct relation to pride. We fear losing because we fear loss. We gloat and boast of our successes, but rarely admit to our losses.
Quote
Disliked
Fear can manifest from a sense of preservation. Not only of life, but of perception by others. [color=black][font=Times New Roman][font=Calibri][size=4]Being viewed as a success, however, feeds our ego and pride and hastens our [u] likelihood to hide our...
This is a very good observation. I figured that by keeping a journal it would help with my accountability.

Quote
Disliked
Fear of lose is indicative of attachment to the monetary value of the money being traded. In trading, you must stay impartial to the monetary value of money otherwise it will cloud your judgment and cause poor trade performance.
My source of fear is somewhat different - it's not the value of the money for me, it's putting the time into an analysis, getting it wrong, and not knowing why. There have been trades which I sometimes place and get wrong, but have spent days trying to rationalize the reason for their failure. It's only after I step back and find out a plausible explanation for what went wrong, that I can continue to trade clearly. I fear that I have a need to rationalize why my trades went wrong, and don't particularly know if such an approach to dealing with failure is the best.

Quote
Disliked
The successful traders mind is concerned with one purpose: consistent growth and the preservation of capital.

A noteworthy statement.

Quote
Disliked
You must believe that with each trade, you will be successful. Belief is a fleeting mistress. She can empower you or leave you feeling helpless in her absence. She retreats from us at the slightest hint of doubt.
Quote
Disliked

I will say this much honestly. If you cannot empower yourself through belief in your ability, then you should not be trading. And by ability, I don’t merely mean the ability to trade. Ability applies to self control, self denial, confidence, humility, reason, and calm....
Yet again another noteworthy comment.

Quote
Disliked
If you are not successful with the trade, then make the trade a learning experience. Don’t rush into another trade before you have examined the play by play to determine where weakness is hiding.
Quote
Disliked

-What did I do wrong? Analysis? Entry? Stop Level?
-Was the market not in the proper state to enter a trade?
I didn't see this on my first read..sort of gives me some reassurance regarding how I deal with my losses.

Quote
Disliked
Successive loses cannot be explained by market noise or volatile fundamentals. At some point the blame for failure needs to rest on the shoulders of the only person responsible: the trader.
This is something I strongly identify with, but when I see individuals quoting from 10 to 50 (Chicky's Lessons Learned Thread) consecutive losses, I just can't wrap my head around what could cause something like that! I consider more than three consecutive losses with the same analysis (updated with each loss) a sign that I don't have a firm grasp on the situation, so should stay out or look for other opportunities.

Quote
Disliked
Examine why you want to trade. Take away the greed and the laziness that accompany most descriptions. If you merely want wealth and a life of leisure, you may stand better odds spending your money on lottery tickets.
Is it bad that I want the wealth, flexibility and leisure such a career can provide?

Regards,
xXTrizzleXx
  • Post #10
  • Quote
  • Jun 17, 2011 7:38pm Jun 17, 2011 7:38pm
  •  ingmarforex
  • Joined Dec 2009 | Status: Member | 3,307 Posts
Thanks Mudbudha for this great post i just love to read this long time i have seen such a post here..


Thanks
  • Post #11
  • Quote
  • Edited at 8:28pm Jun 17, 2011 8:09pm | Edited at 8:28pm
  •  MuddBuddha
  • Joined May 2005 | Status: Member | 945 Posts
xXTrizzleXx,

Excellent post! and to quickly answer the last part, No! it isn't wrong to want to be wealthy and have the life of leisure that the wealth provides, but the journey precedes the destination.

Every sports team plays for one goal : to ultimately win the championship.
But each week they play for one purpose : to win that one game.

It's the battles we fight and the lessons we learn in the journey that inevitably make the destination attainable.

You can't win the championship in the first game. We trade for wealth in our life, however long that may be. But for today, for this trade I'm about to take, I trade for NOW. Game #1. I've studied. I've analyzed the competition and I believe in my ability to win.

You should always trade with your eye to the prize, but trade the here and now.

As to your comment about spending days analyzing your failures, it's understandable and shows a strong desire for perfection.

Honestly, I don't think it necessarily the wrong method for you. If you are truly analyzing what went wrong with what you predetermined to be a good trade, and not just beating yourself up in self pity, then you will be one of the greats.

“Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence.”

I have a strong suspicion that this applies to you!
Capital Preservation is key to long term wealth accumulation
  • Post #12
  • Quote
  • Jun 17, 2011 8:21pm Jun 17, 2011 8:21pm
  •  MuddBuddha
  • Joined May 2005 | Status: Member | 945 Posts
Quoting ingmarforex
Disliked
Thanks Mudbudha for this great post i just love to read this long time i have seen such a post here..


Thanks
Ignored
You're welcome, ingmarforex. I'm glad it brought something to you.

It's often too easy to get caught up in the hostility and ego puffing that can occur in the threads that we forget that we're ALL here for the same fundamental reason.

We would do better to repay hostility with kindness and kindness with like.

My real life gig is project management for government contracts. So I manage a large group of service technicians.
The one thing I've found true over the years is that the hardest part of management is getting people to work together as a team. It sounds simple, but it is very complex as every person brings "baggage" that hinders the team concept.
You literally have to re-train people to let go of ego and pride and feel more concern for the team as a whole than they do for themselves alone.

Our forum isn't unlike that. Hopefully I'll be able to keep bringing you more inspiration.
Capital Preservation is key to long term wealth accumulation
  • Post #13
  • Quote
  • Jun 17, 2011 8:24pm Jun 17, 2011 8:24pm
  •  xXTrizzleXx
  • Joined Aug 2010 | Status: Information is King | 497 Posts
Quoting MuddBuddha
Disliked
xXTrizzleXx,

Excellent post! and to quickly answer the last part, No! it isn't wrong to want to be wealthy and have the life of leisure that the wealth provides, but the journey precedes the destination.

As to you comment about spending days analyzing your failures, it's understandable and shows a strong desire for perfection.

Honestly, I don't think it necessarily the wrong method for you. If you are truly analyzing what went wrong with what you predetermined to be a good trade, and not just beating yourself up in self pity, then you will...
Ignored
This is very encouraging. Your contributions are greatly appreciated.

Regards,
xXTrizzleXx
  • Post #14
  • Quote
  • Jun 17, 2011 10:26pm Jun 17, 2011 10:26pm
  •  ingmarforex
  • Joined Dec 2009 | Status: Member | 3,307 Posts
Quoting MuddBuddha
Disliked
You're welcome, ingmarforex. I'm glad it brought something to you.

It's often too easy to get caught up in the hostility and ego puffing that can occur in the threads that we forget that we're ALL here for the same fundamental reason.

We would do better to repay hostility with kindness and kindness with like.

My real life gig is project management for government contracts. So I manage a large group of service technicians.
The one thing I've found true over the years is that the hardest part of management is getting people to work together...
Ignored
I agree with you this 100% I was 3 months before away from forums for sometime and the only thing i did was trading, trading, trading. getting my own edge together and feeling for the market i am still not where i wanted to be but i contineu my journey to polish my skills and try to pick up valuable gems in good threads from people with experience or people who are in my feeling worth to follow and learn somethings from.

What you sayed is so treu about forums thats also 1 of the reasons why i left to be honiest lately i felt in the same trap and my ego came also bit in front.

1 of the best examples is probally the eur/usd thread where people continously fighting bashing around eachother. The funny part is the sentiment is a verry nice meter there When they extremmely bearish and 1 guy comes in with a bullish scenario He gets the full load from all the people. The funny part is that that person is maybe right especially when the market is dropping for couple of days they become more bearish most of them don't follow whatever fundamental piece only looking at the charts making fun of eachother bashing around but eventually they get stopped out trade after trade. And the most what hurts that are people with 10 vouchers and 6000 post or more. 1 thing for sure i was last weeks in there and i feeled my ego got hurted and i started to react like them maybe a good reason to say farewell again and only check sometimes the good threads. 1 thing for sure that the most ordinary thread out here it is fun to read a day when you not trading it is really a soap almost. Sometimes it is a shame that someone can not show his oppinion on this forums most have demo acounts talking of trading big sizes blah blah it irratates me don't know why but it probally tells also something about myself.


Thanks Muddbuddha.
  • Post #15
  • Quote
  • Jun 18, 2011 2:35am Jun 18, 2011 2:35am
  •  mr.marketz
  • | Joined May 2006 | Status: Member | 397 Posts
Quoting MuddBuddha
Disliked
Thanks, marketz!

I really appreciate that you think so.

I've been thinking about this for some while and it seemed like the right time to put it down into black and white.
Ignored
I'll tell you what, I don't have much to say on the topic of demo trading, but in my opinion what you wrote has a far more universal theme.

The nice thing about being intimate with the market for such a long time is that one really gets a sense of the validity of other traders. For example, I can't tell what your P&L statement looks like. But I can tell that you've been through the market meat grinder long enough that it has changed you as a person.

In the meantime, other nonsensical posters tout regurgitated rules of thumb (like 2% max, one pair only, etc.) trying to pass them off as wisdom, or experience. --- "I PITY THE FOOL!" - Mr. T

This may sound fluffy, and the math guys might not agree with me, but market success is a life changing journey. Oddly enough, the change happens before the success and not the other way around (as most newcomers would tend to believe). The reason I was moved by your post is because it echos this precise sentiment.
  • Post #16
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  • Jun 18, 2011 3:57am Jun 18, 2011 3:57am
  •  BackTestDummy
  • | Joined Jan 2007 | Status: Member | 246 Posts
WOW! An exceptional piece of writing.
I've got my pips - go get yours!
  • Post #17
  • Quote
  • Edited at 5:32am Jun 18, 2011 5:21am | Edited at 5:32am
  •  ha-pattern
  • Joined Sep 2008 | Status: hardcore chartist | 2,173 Posts
Quoting MuddBuddha
Disliked
I’ve never had a losing trade. I’ve only ever ran out of margin.”...If and when they margin call the account, they can easily reset or sign up for another account....They have invested no time in obtaining these funds through physical labor...approach demo trading as a real exercise of developing both skill and mental conditioning....Players run drills over and over again meticulously practicing every detail of a run route...
When a trader consigns themselves to the mental attitude that because “virtual” funds are no more real than dollar bills...
Ignored
Agreed, only for simulator, not demo. If you think of a trade whose area you may've seen before as an area you failed at, it's as if you've never seen it before: You must now succeed at trading that area.

Also, in simulator, it's much easier to lose an account. You never get used to the feeling of losing an account; however, I don't think it makes a difference for doing it so often,
because the trigger of having a technical edge one can trust and build upon is priceless, since only there does one begin to be consistent and confidently profitable.

And, this happens a little at a time -- You think you have an edge, then your account fails, so you start over; or, you find something new to improve your edge, and a new method is an untested method, so you fail. Repeat as needed: I've been through maybe a thousand accounts of the past few years.

In the mean time, one learns exactly how much percent per hour (my favorite way) one P/L's, how many trades in a sitting/day one can take, when to schedule one's trades, etc., are appropriate for one's ability and life.

I've yet to be profitable, but I'm glad to have had the experience of practice, for it's grown me significantly.
  • Post #18
  • Quote
  • Jun 18, 2011 5:37am Jun 18, 2011 5:37am
  •  Larseg
  • Joined May 2009 | Status: Re-member | 6,494 Posts
Quoting MuddBuddha
Disliked
*“I’ve never had a losing trade. I’ve only ever ran out of margin.”

[font=Calibri][size=4]Over the years of trading, learning, and mentoring other traders I’ve come across traders who are naturally gifted and there was no doubt that they would succeed, while others were obviously bound to fail often time and time again. Some can learn new techniques and adapt fairly quickly while others refuse to let go of preconceived paradigms that block them from realizing vital changes in market...
Ignored

No quote necessary so +1. Vouched.
  • Post #19
  • Quote
  • Jun 18, 2011 12:48pm Jun 18, 2011 12:48pm
  •  MuddBuddha
  • Joined May 2005 | Status: Member | 945 Posts
Quoting Troikaone1
Disliked
Nothing works in your first 4 to 5 years of trading FX; including demo trading. Demo trading simply delays the inevitable.....losing consistently.
Ignored
There's a proverb that reads, "The song a sparrow learns when it's young becomes it's song for life."

So, having said that, I would disagree to an extent.
Capital Preservation is key to long term wealth accumulation
  • Post #20
  • Quote
  • Jun 18, 2011 12:48pm Jun 18, 2011 12:48pm
  •  MuddBuddha
  • Joined May 2005 | Status: Member | 945 Posts
Quoting BackTestDummy
Disliked
WOW! An exceptional piece of writing.
Ignored
Thanks, BTD. Glad to see your still roaming these halls!
Capital Preservation is key to long term wealth accumulation
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