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  • #41
  • Mar 28, 2010 9:04pm Mar 28, 2010 9:04pm
Quoting The Fool
What - you don't have a management fee at all? or you mean they should be more? If its a standard in the industry why not go for it?

Many Thanks, Mike!
"if you are good... a managed account should charge around 30% on monthly gains. "
  • #42
  • Mar 28, 2010 9:10pm Mar 28, 2010 9:10pm
Quoting Deusomega
"if you are good... a managed account should charge around 30% on monthly gains. "
that's a performance fee.

most hedge funds charge a management fee around 1-2% and then a performance fee of 20% (more or less)

1-2% management fee can be a huge source of income for those funds, some of them holding b-b-billions AUM

check the Hedge Fund wiki I posted earlier
"If The Fool persists in his Folly he will become wise." - William Blake
  • #43
  • Mar 28, 2010 9:19pm Mar 28, 2010 9:19pm
Quoting The Fool
you need your series 65.

I mostly hear those tests are easy to pass, even the Series 3

most managed accounts have a 5K minimum.

That's more like it - but do clients see your trades in real-time or only at end-of-day?

5%/month should be doable for most solid traders. I hope so.

if you are good... a managed account should charge around 30% on monthly gains.

i like a high water mark after 100%/annually. most don't.

risk should be small... that's the key. the size of the fund...
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I'm not sure about easy.

The pass rate just went up on the 65 but hey... if you can't beat the market month after month... you can pass these tests.

see the trade in real time.

60%/year.... not so easy really. do you know how many fund managers put up those kind of number? (very, very few)

most foex managers will trade their own capital along side investor capital. that makes people feel more comfortable.

no management fee. 30% is plenty. Bill Gross says that number is high way robbery... then again he has a trillion under management. when i have a trillion under management i'll drop my commission %... to around 29%.

mike
  • #44
  • Mar 28, 2010 9:26pm Mar 28, 2010 9:26pm
Quoting acumen
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

60%/year.... not so easy really. do you know how many fund managers put up those kind of number? (very, very few)

no management fee. 30% is plenty. Bill Gross says that number is high way robbery... then again he has a trillion under management. when i have a trillion under management i'll drop my commission %... to around 29%.

mike
I hear ya - I have been looking around for some mf results and from what I have seen, you're right. In fact its not uncommon to see them in the red.

30% - if you can get it, why not? I have heard of top hedge fund producers charging up to 50%... Of course, if Joe Investor is unhappy with that he can get 2%/year on Main Street.
"If The Fool persists in his Folly he will become wise." - William Blake
  • #45
  • Mar 28, 2010 9:32pm Mar 28, 2010 9:32pm
Heres a link to the barrons 2009 top 100 hedge fund rankings.

http://www.marketfolly.com/2009/05/b...-2009-top.html


The average yearly return for a 3 year period, for the middle crowd, is about 16% a year. http://cdn.forexfactory.com/images/s...m/thinking.gif

gangster boogey.....gangster boogey
Annoying Precision
  • #46
  • Mar 28, 2010 9:40pm Mar 28, 2010 9:40pm
Quoting The Fool
I hear ya - I have been looking around for some mf results and from what I have seen, you're right. In fact its not uncommon to see them in the red.

30% - if you can get it, why not? I have heard of top hedge fund producers charging up to 50%... Of course, if Joe Investor is unhappy with that he can get 2%/year on Main Street.
keep in mind hedge funds/forex managed funds(really hedge funds) are very different than MuF.

i like 'confident honestly'.

no one likes an arrogance... most loathe it.

simply state to clients... 30% may seem like a lot at first but did any of your other investment produce a 60% last year. (any year?)

m
  • #47
  • Mar 28, 2010 9:45pm Mar 28, 2010 9:45pm
If your able to produce returns like that each year you can ask for 50% or more.

As you can see from my previous post that most cannot, some have good years but on average most cant even come close.

If they could there would be more billionaires on the list, there has to be some capitilization point where things just arent the same.

Quoting acumen
keep in mind hedge funds/forex managed funds(really hedge funds) are very different than MF.

i like 'confident honestly'.

no one likes an arrogance... most loathe it.

simply state to clients... 30% may seem like a lot at first but did any of your other investment produce a 60% last year. (any year?)

m
Annoying Precision
  • #48
  • Mar 28, 2010 9:52pm Mar 28, 2010 9:52pm
Quoting erikte279
If your able to produce returns like that each year you can ask for 50% or more.

As you can see from my previous post that most cannot, some have good years but on average most cant even come close.

If they could there would be more billionaires on the list, there has to be some capitilization point where things just arent the same.
a potential investor... ok... i'll charge you 50% if it makes you feel better.

  • #49
  • Mar 28, 2010 9:54pm Mar 28, 2010 9:54pm
Show me your 3 year track record.....not 3 weeks .

Quoting acumen
a potential investor... ok... i'll charge you 50% if it makes you feel better.

Annoying Precision
  • #50
  • Mar 28, 2010 9:58pm Mar 28, 2010 9:58pm
Quoting erikte279
Show me your 3 year track record.....not 3 weeks .
Inserted Video


Time will tell.

This is based on a mechanical system I wrote for a book I just finished.

Mike
  • #51
  • Mar 28, 2010 10:05pm Mar 28, 2010 10:05pm
I've seen this video before, very impressive.

Now you've got to try it on a Live account and see how it does.

Then I've heard the transition from trading your live account to trading investor funds is similar to switching from demo to live.

Good Luck!
Annoying Precision
  • #52
  • Mar 28, 2010 10:15pm Mar 28, 2010 10:15pm
Quoting Leonlorenzo
What's the logic behind pivot points?
logic? ...damn aren't you a hard-ass?
"If The Fool persists in his Folly he will become wise." - William Blake
  • #53
  • Mar 28, 2010 10:23pm Mar 28, 2010 10:23pm
Quoting The Fool
logic? ...damn aren't you a hard-ass?
Well, aren't they calculated using the high, low, and close of the day? Pretty irrelevant numbers in my eyes; I want somebody to convince me otherwise. Yes, the high (/low) may be important on one day, but if the high of the day happens in a pronounced uptrend close to the end of the day and is then broken 15mins in to the next day... then I don't see how the data is important. Using the close is just plain silly.
Living the adventure in my head.
  • #54
  • Mar 28, 2010 10:27pm Mar 28, 2010 10:27pm
Just watch the video, then wiki pivot points. thats all you have to know.

Quoting Leonlorenzo
Well, aren't they calculated using the high, low, and close of the day? Pretty irrelevant numbers in my eyes; I want somebody to convince me otherwise. Yes, the high (/low) may be important on one day, but if the high of the day happens in a pronounced uptrend close to the end of the day and is then broken 15mins in to the next day... then I don't see how the data is important. Using the close is just plain silly.
Annoying Precision
  • #55
  • Edited 11:02pm Mar 28, 2010 10:41pm | Edited 11:02pm
Quoting erikte279
Just watch the video, then wiki pivot points. thats all you have to know.
Thanks, Ive just had a read.

And these are widely used in the forex trading world? There doesn't seem to be much variation in the way they are calculated, which is good.

EDIT: On second thoughts maybe their calculation isn't so uniform; on a daily time-frame there are 4 variations:

P = (H + L + C) / 3.

P = (O + H + L + C) / 4

P = (H + L + C + C) / 4

P = (H + L + O + O) / 4

So there are therefore 12 possible pivot points when you take in to account the main sessions of NY, LDN and Tokyo they can be calculated from. That's only on the daily TF, then you have to take in to account that others may be looking at a weekly/monthly pivot that they see as being more important. Then we need to take in to account that price 'may' turn just before, on, or just after the pivot... considering at this point we have:

3timeframes(4monthlypivots + 4weeklypivots + 4dailypivots) = 36 pivot points

Then S1, S2, R1, R2 as well for each... we have 36variations X 5lines = 180 possible turning points for price on our chart on any given day. Lol.

Looks like as much of a mess as fibs tbh.
Living the adventure in my head.
  • #56
  • Mar 28, 2010 10:58pm Mar 28, 2010 10:58pm
...ok

Quoting markmm
Pivot points are useless in forex, there are used more in market with a real close like stock markets.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: pic10 pivot.gif Size: 17 KB
Annoying Precision
  • #57
  • Mar 29, 2010 12:16am Mar 29, 2010 12:16am
Bottom line is if you have the track record the money will come.

As for the limits by NFA -not that you should not get your licenses but who is there to stop you if you find a client who wants you trade 100 mil for him privately, he has an account you have his trading password - all you need.

If you have the track record and keep proving yourself people will agree to whatever conditions you ask of them.

I'd shoot for 20% monthly on managed accounts.



R
  • #58
  • Mar 29, 2010 1:03am Mar 29, 2010 1:03am
I've been trading OPM for some time now. For me, the key is not having wild equity swings.

If a client says they want 100% + pa, then avoid them. It's only going to lead to problems because even if you hit that, they're going to want more next year. You need clients that have realistic expectations based on knowledge of what's possible and what's normal in the field of investments.

The other thing is every client will state their potential cut-off point as being greater than it really is. Never forget this. If they say stop trading at 35% loss of account, they'll freak out when you hit 25%.

Losses carry far greater emotional weight than wins for both traders and investors, so you've got to not let the drawdowns get too large. In order to to do that, you're not going to have spectacular yields, but most clients want to preserve first, beat inflation secondly, then make some extra money in the end. If you can hit the first two targets, you're doing a good job.

As for the stress that so many claim, yet have never experienced, trading OPM is not for everyone. But for me, it's no more stressful than trading my own money, at least not now. Initially it was, but I quickly realized that it's really a no lose situation for me. Sure if I don't make any money I don't get paid (I charge 25%, no fees), but nothing is coming out of my pocket. It all depends on your psychological makeup. I much prefer trading OPM than my money. And if I need to take a day off, I do. No one is making me punch a clock here.

Finally, you need to talk to your potential clients carefully and try to get a good understanding of them. If you suspect they're going to be a pain in the ass, give them a try anyways, but if they start being a pia, then dump them asap because they'll only drag you down emotionally and you can't let anyone do that to you when trading.

Hope this helps.
  • #59
  • Mar 29, 2010 1:28am Mar 29, 2010 1:28am
Quoting Dopey
Hope this helps.
Sure does, thanks Dopey. Let me ax you some nosey questions - and if you ignore any/all of them, I'll understand.

How many clients (investors?) do you have? How long in the business? How much AUM? What kind of business structure? What kind of registration do you have? Who is your broker(s)? Are you trading forex only or other instruments, as well?

You take 25% off roi above a rolling high water mark?

Is there an upper limit to your AUM that you are shooting for or that you have in mind? How do you obtain new investors? Do you have employees?

Thanx again & kind regards
"If The Fool persists in his Folly he will become wise." - William Blake
  • #60
  • Mar 29, 2010 1:29am Mar 29, 2010 1:29am
This is very helpful, thanks for the insight.

If a client wants 100% per year, chances are he's not going to be depositing that much anyways .

Quoting Dopey
I've been trading OPM for some time now. For me, the key is not having wild equity swings.

If a client says they want 100% + pa, then avoid them. It's only going to lead to problems because even if you hit that, they're going to want more next year. You need clients that have realistic expectations based on knowledge of what's possible and what's normal in the field of investments.

The other thing is every client will state their potential cut-off point as being greater than it really is. Never forget this. If they say stop trading at 35% loss...
Annoying Precision
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