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Graduates vs non-grads in trading

  • #21
  • Nov 29, 2005 8:38pm Nov 29, 2005 8:38pm
Quoting Khalid Shahzad
Degree doesn't guarantee victory in trading... I agree. Nonetheless, why a certified or a well educated person is required when a brokerage firm looking for a financial or credit analyst...?

Building up a successful system is, definitely, an important part for traders; however, for example, I had been doing degree in computer science it is definitely helping me out to write down my indicators or expert advisors in mql4. Well educated person has the tendency to do work efficiently and effectively.

Every thing has its pros and cons and I think while trading it is better to be an educated or degree holder rather have nothing. Secondly, the degree holder has the second option if he/she doesn't get success they can go back and earn for living...
Regards,
Kay
The computer science could definitely be an asset in developing code and the likes but the true success factor in trading is the psychological element. In the end, a degree truly is irrelevant.

The degrees brokers are looking for is as you said...for analysts. Analysts are quite often the worst traders. They have the sharp mind to provide an analysis of various financial instruments and economies. But that's why they have the degree...in order to understand the terms and theories that is the basis to their analysis. It's all academic. However, ask an analyst to take that analysis and put money on the line and you are asking them to step into unknown territroy. There is a substantial difference between an academic mind-set and a trader's mind-set

Degree or no degree, the market simply does not care.
  • #22
  • Nov 29, 2005 9:03pm Nov 29, 2005 9:03pm
Quoting Khalid Shahzad
Degree doesn't guarantee victory in trading... I agree. Nonetheless, why a certified or a well educated person is required when a brokerage firm looking for a financial or credit analyst...?

Building up a successful system is, definitely, an important part for traders; however, for example, I had been doing degree in computer science it is definitely helping me out to write down my indicators or expert advisors in mql4. Well educated person has the tendency to do work efficiently and effectively.

Every thing has its pros and cons and I think while trading it is better to be an educated or degree holder rather have nothing. Secondly, the degree holder has the second option if he/she doesn't get success they can go back and earn for living...
Regards,
Kay
I don't know if analysts are the worst traders. Can't comment on this. But they are analyst. you know, analyst, only. They get paid to analyze. Can these highly qualified people trade? I don't know.
Btw, come back to your CFA. Hey, if you are really fancy about working as an analyst or in banking industry, they love this title. Good salary man.
But, when we are in the market...uhm...who cares about you are CFA or ABC? Can you get more pips consistently?
  • #23
  • Nov 29, 2005 10:04pm Nov 29, 2005 10:04pm
Quoting traderswin
I don't know if analysts are the worst traders. Can't comment on this. But they are analyst. you know, analyst, only. They get paid to analyze. Can these highly qualified people trade? I don't know.
Btw, come back to your CFA. Hey, if you are really fancy about working as an analyst or in banking industry, they love this title. Good salary man.
But, when we are in the market...uhm...who cares about you are CFA or ABC? Can you get more pips consistently?

Who are we, by all means, we are analyst too, we analyze the market, if it is best fit according to our systems then we initiate our trade.

I just gave the example regarding CFA...

There is no comparison in between collage degree and professional certification. Yet, if you are more fundamental then technical, masters in economic will really help you out to understand what is going at macro level. Most of the guys who developed the so called technical indicators which we use were statistics degree holder or computer programmers, most of them had degree or professional certifications.

In short, understanding of fundamental and technical indicators does help us in our trading decisions. My view.
Regards,
Kay
Resource pooling is the only solution. I love positive pips.
  • #24
  • Nov 29, 2005 10:17pm Nov 29, 2005 10:17pm
Quoting Khalid Shahzad

Who are we, by all means, we are analyst too, we analyze the market, if it is best fit according to our systems then we initiate our trade.

I just gave the example regarding CFA...

There is no comparison in between collage degree and professional certification. Yet, if you are more fundamental then technical, masters in economic will really help you out to understand what is going at macro level. Most of the guys who developed the so called technical indicators which we use were statistics degree holder or computer programmers, most of them had degree or professional certifications.

In short, understanding of fundamental and technical indicators does help us in our trading decisions. My view.
Regards,
Kay
Interesting arguement. Yes, we are analysts to a certain degree. I agree. I'm not suggesting that we don't need any education or methodology in order to successfully particpate in the markets. We most certainly do. But the knowledge that really counts does not come in the form of university education and degrees.

The guys who developed the indicators may very well have had degrees in statistics or computer programming but so what. Their success in the markets had very little to do with the indicator itself and more with money management and their psychological and emotional resolve to stick with their plans/indicators. In fact, most indicators have been proven to be not much better than chance. Hell, you can even make money with random entries provided your stops and overall money management scheme are valid. What does any of that have to do with a degree? Absolutely nothing
  • #25
  • Nov 29, 2005 10:28pm Nov 29, 2005 10:28pm
the great thing about trading is noone gives a damn about your pedigree, what you look like, how you talk, who your friends are, or even how good your breath smells in the morning. read market wizards, you will see that great traders come from every background imaginable.
Relax and be happy.
  • #26
  • Nov 29, 2005 10:37pm Nov 29, 2005 10:37pm
Quoting dvescio
Interesting arguement. Yes, we are analysts to a certain degree. I agree. I'm not suggesting that we don't need any education or methodology in order to successfully particpate in the markets. We most certainly do. But the knowledge that really counts does not come in the form of university education and degrees.

The guys who developed the indicators may very well have had degrees in statistics or computer programming but so what. Their success in the markets had very little to do with the indicator itself and more with money management and their psychological and emotional resolve to stick with their plans/indicators. In fact, most indicators have been proven to be not much better than chance. Hell, you can even make money with random entries provided your stops and overall money management scheme are valid. What does any of that have to do with a degree? Absolutely nothing

I really appreciate your comments.

I don't think so forex market is a place of gambling...

I already said system doesn't only mean enter into or exit from the market, comprehensive system should have all intrinsic or extrinsic aspects of trading such as psychological, emotional, and last but not least fund management.

Even if you firmly believe on your system then you can just put that on expert advisor which may cover psychological, emotional, and other aspect of trading.

Regards,

Kay
Resource pooling is the only solution. I love positive pips.
  • #27
  • Nov 29, 2005 10:57pm Nov 29, 2005 10:57pm
Hmm. Interesting to see that we have a thread here where most of the people have said 'I have a degree and it doesn't make any difference'? Then why do most of the people seem to have degrees? Also interesting to note that most of the successful traders that I know all have degrees.

Simon
  • #28
  • Nov 29, 2005 11:11pm Nov 29, 2005 11:11pm
Quoting dvescio
Part of the reason these people are so successful in previous endeavours is partly in their ability to get their environment to conform to what they want or need thru knowldge, negotiation or whatever else. The market does not give two hoots about conforming to what you want or need.

People with degrees have spent a good part of their lives studying, writing exams, etc... so what are they used to? BEING RIGHT. Priding themselves on the fact that they beleive thay have an intelligence edge over others. Unfortunatley, most do not appreciate the fact that trading requires a completely opposite mind-set to everything else they've ever done. Being right, for instance, has nothing to do with making money.
EXTREMLY interesting concept!

Furthermore, people with degrees and professional success in other fields do usualy carry a proud, competitive, being-the-first, boss-like mind set. In my opinion, those are some counterproductive characteristics when it comes to trading: you MUST be humble, you MUST admit when you are wrong and call it quits (close the trade) instead of fighting to make it work out, you MUST be repetitive, disciplined and emotionalessly following your system, you MUST acknoledge the market as the boss rather than you, etc.
  • #29
  • Nov 29, 2005 11:13pm Nov 29, 2005 11:13pm
I am a "tradesman" (read craftsman or blue collar worker) I hope in 2 to 5 years to drop my hand tools and use a computer to "trade" forex for a living!
  • #30
  • Nov 30, 2005 7:52am Nov 30, 2005 7:52am
Quoting DrRock
Hmm. Interesting to see that we have a thread here where most of the people have said 'I have a degree and it doesn't make any difference'? Then why do most of the people seem to have degrees? Also interesting to note that most of the successful traders that I know all have degrees.

Simon
Well most people have degrees just because that's the path of life which our parents saw would be correct. They just didn't realize that this era is not about degrees as much as it is about inflation. It's not about degrees as much as it is about capital preservation. It's not about degrees as much as it is about investments.

When I first decided that I am going to invest a good amount of money in the US stock market, my mother, which is a classic and traditional parent was afraid to death and told me, why are you doing this?? I told her, because I want my kids to live a good and comfortable life, I don't just want to live my life and leave the people to come to think about their own.

In her opinion, life will be the same for my kids as it was with hers. This is not true. Inflation is eating up everything. Our parents life was easier than ours, and our kids life is going to be harder than ours, so we need to support them as much as we can.

If you have a degree, and can't feed your baby and your wife, you are a LOSER whatever PhDs you hold.


Thanks,

Nader
  • #31
  • Nov 30, 2005 7:53am Nov 30, 2005 7:53am
Hi, I graduated from stocks to FX. I have no formal qualifications.

Good luck!
grist for the mill
  • #32
  • Nov 30, 2005 9:43am Nov 30, 2005 9:43am
Quoting DrRock
Hmm. Interesting to see that we have a thread here where most of the people have said 'I have a degree and it doesn't make any difference'? Then why do most of the people seem to have degrees? Also interesting to note that most of the successful traders that I know all have degrees.

Simon
Most people who get degrees hope that the degree will allow them to get a job in a field they are interested in. I got an Engineering degree and I work in an Engineering field and for the most part I enjoy it. The same can be said for doctors, lawyers, computer programmers, etc.

When it comes to trading, especially FOREX we all have to do our own studying. Some of us go through online training, some of us learn through classroom stdudy and some of us dig up our own material and join forums like this one to discuss what we've learned, and to try to learn more and hopefully to help others along the way too.

I would say that if there was a formal course of study to learn FOREX, people with degrees would have a leg up because at University we learn how to study, but learning to trade is not a formal course of study. When it comes to trading we all start at square one. The first thing is we have to learn about ourselves and figure out what type of trading style suits us, then we have to go from there and either develop a trading methodology or find an existing one to use.

When you say that most successful traders you know have degrees, what type of trading are you talking about and what type of degrees do these people have? I'd be interested to find out.
  • #33
  • Nov 30, 2005 6:30pm Nov 30, 2005 6:30pm
Quoting volan
When you say that most successful traders you know have degrees, what type of trading are you talking about and what type of degrees do these people have? I'd be interested to find out.
I am work with a bunch of guys in system development who have degrees. Some of them are working towards funds management. I also know some guys who have discretionary trading models.

 

  1. One guy has been trading FX for around 3 years and is a pharmacist.
  2. One guy has been trading FX for around 3 year and prior to that was trading stocks - he has been trading full income FX for 3 years - he has an engineering degree.
  3. One guy is doing system development and has made 6 systems which are traded by a trading robot that are up over 70% in the last 4 months. He has a economics degree.
  4. Another guy who has done the robot trading for the above guy has a computer science (I think - or it might be engineering) degree - he is not really a trader though.
  5. I have been trading for about 6 years - stocks and then FX and have a PhD in Geology.
  6. Another guy I know who started a company called Hometrader who are about to list on the ASX - they teach people how to trade on the ASX - he doesn't have a degree and started trading before he was 18 (needed his mum to open the account for him).
  7. Another guy who has been trading FX full income for the last 3 years has an engineering degree.

These guys are the only ones that I know who live where I am who are what I would consider to be successful traders.

Simon

  • #34
  • Nov 30, 2005 9:47pm Nov 30, 2005 9:47pm
Quoting DrRock
I am work with a bunch of guys in system development who have degrees. Some of them are working towards funds management. I also know some guys who have discretionary trading models.

 

  1. One guy has been trading FX for around 3 years and is a pharmacist.
  2. One guy has been trading FX for around 3 year and prior to that was trading stocks - he has been trading full income FX for 3 years - he has an engineering degree.
  3. One guy is doing system development and has made 6 systems which are traded by a trading robot that are up over 70% in the last 4 months. He has a economics degree.
  4. Another guy who has done the robot trading for the above guy has a computer science (I think - or it might be engineering) degree - he is not really a trader though.
  5. I have been trading for about 6 years - stocks and then FX and have a PhD in Geology.
  6. Another guy I know who started a company called Hometrader who are about to list on the ASX - they teach people how to trade on the ASX - he doesn't have a degree and started trading before he was 18 (needed his mum to open the account for him).
  7. Another guy who has been trading FX full income for the last 3 years has an engineering degree.

These guys are the only ones that I know who live where I am who are what I would consider to be successful traders.

Simon

And not any single one of them are successful because of their degrees or the set of rules they managed to automate. Their backgrounds might have given them the ability to turn their rules into intricate code but did their degrees give them the psychological edge, discipline and money management know-how? I doubt it. Doesn't the fact that these people's degrees are in different fields tell you that the degree is not the common denominator to their success?

Follow Merlin's advice and read Market Wizards. You will quickly see that there is no secret method or degree that equates to success and that all the great traders have really only a few things in common that dictate their success: discipline, money management, proper psychology. Their degrees are irrelevant. Look into the history of the Turtles. The successful traders come from all walks of life. Degrees and no degrees. Watch the movie Trading Places with Eddie Murphy. The movie is based on this entire premise. They literally took a bum off the street and taught him to be a successful commodities trader. You might as well burn your degrees because they truly mean nothing in this world.
  • #35
  • Nov 30, 2005 10:12pm Nov 30, 2005 10:12pm
Quoting DrRock
I am work with a bunch of guys in system development who have degrees. Some of them are working towards funds management. I also know some guys who have discretionary trading models.

 

  1. One guy has been trading FX for around 3 years and is a pharmacist.
  2. One guy has been trading FX for around 3 year and prior to that was trading stocks - he has been trading full income FX for 3 years - he has an engineering degree.
  3. One guy is doing system development and has made 6 systems which are traded by a trading robot that are up over 70% in the last 4 months. He has a economics degree.
  4. Another guy who has done the robot trading for the above guy has a computer science (I think - or it might be engineering) degree - he is not really a trader though.
  5. I have been trading for about 6 years - stocks and then FX and have a PhD in Geology.
  6. Another guy I know who started a company called Hometrader who are about to list on the ASX - they teach people how to trade on the ASX - he doesn't have a degree and started trading before he was 18 (needed his mum to open the account for him).
  7. Another guy who has been trading FX full income for the last 3 years has an engineering degree.

These guys are the only ones that I know who live where I am who are what I would consider to be successful traders.

Simon


Wow! That's quite the group of friends you have.
  • #36
  • Dec 1, 2005 12:19am Dec 1, 2005 12:19am
Quoting dvescio
And not any single one of them are successful because of their degrees or the set of rules they managed to automate. Their backgrounds might have given them the ability to turn their rules into intricate code but did their degrees give them the psychological edge, discipline and money management know-how? I doubt it. Doesn't the fact that these people's degrees are in different fields tell you that the degree is not the common denominator to their success?

Follow Merlin's advice and read Market Wizards. You will quickly see that there is no secret method or degree that equates to success and that all the great traders have really only a few things in common that dictate their success: discipline, money management, proper psychology. Their degrees are irrelevant. Look into the history of the Turtles. The successful traders come from all walks of life. Degrees and no degrees. Watch the movie Trading Places with Eddie Murphy. The movie is based on this entire premise. They literally took a bum off the street and taught him to be a successful commodities trader. You might as well burn your degrees because they truly mean nothing in this world.
At no point did I say that their degrees has anything to do with their trading success. I merely made the point that most of the people that I know who are successfuly traders have degrees and most of the people who have posted on this thread have a degree. I just thought that it was interesting.

Simon
  • #37
  • Dec 1, 2005 6:15am Dec 1, 2005 6:15am
Quoting DrRock
At no point did I say that their degrees has anything to do with their trading success. I merely made the point that most of the people that I know who are successfuly traders have degrees and most of the people who have posted on this thread have a degree. I just thought that it was interesting.

Simon
Understood. I am equally making an observation/opinion that there is no correlation between university degrees and success in trading. I find that equally interesting.
  • #38
  • Dec 2, 2005 7:00am Dec 2, 2005 7:00am
my degree is really useful for trading.you get to study a lot about pain control.

just joking
  • #39
  • Dec 10, 2005 4:14am Dec 10, 2005 4:14am
One thing I had to add that currently the pro traders that's successful at least in the eyes of media are college grads.

Non- grads that make it in the trading business tend to be fewer at least away from public eye.
  • #40
  • Dec 10, 2005 5:10am Dec 10, 2005 5:10am
During trading you have to change a way of thinking. it is opposite in trading. In everyday life hope is sometimes good in rtading hope can kill you, you must be objective. in maths for example none can argue that theorem of Pytagora is not correct. in trading there are plenty of reasons to confirm that your decision might be wrong.
kiss the trend
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